These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Upcoming Feature and Change Feedback Center

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

[Citadel] Updates to NPC taxes and refining rig bonuses

First post First post First post
Author
Previous Topic Next Topic
Scotsman Howard
S0utherN Comfort
#41 - 2016-04-27 10:45:32 UTC
Drago Shouna wrote:
Otro Willis wrote:
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
It's a buff to lowsec, but still a long term death knell to Highsec.
You can't remove citadels to avoid a wardec, they cost the same no matter the area of space, they should give the same reward for use in any area of space since they require the same investment. Otherwise it gives an unbeatable materials advantage to Null/WH's. Which is terrible for the game.



Because being next door to Jita isn't an advantage at all.


What the hell has Jita got to do with it?

I haven't been there in over 2 years, and I doubt I will in the next 2 if i'm here.


LOL if you don't understand the importance of Jita to the game economy, then I am sorry for you.

All those prices you have been using to sell wherever you are: guess what; they were driven by Jita in some way. Jita sets the tone for the rest of Eve be it null sec or low sec (WH is a bit debatable, but they have never had fully flushed out markets).

How many null groups do NOT base their SRP or markets off of Jita prices?
Lugh Crow-Slave
#42 - 2016-04-27 10:50:18 UTC
Scotsman Howard wrote:
Drago Shouna wrote:
Otro Willis wrote:
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
It's a buff to lowsec, but still a long term death knell to Highsec.
You can't remove citadels to avoid a wardec, they cost the same no matter the area of space, they should give the same reward for use in any area of space since they require the same investment. Otherwise it gives an unbeatable materials advantage to Null/WH's. Which is terrible for the game.



Because being next door to Jita isn't an advantage at all.


What the hell has Jita got to do with it?

I haven't been there in over 2 years, and I doubt I will in the next 2 if i'm here.


LOL if you don't understand the importance of Jita to the game economy, then I am sorry for you.

All those prices you have been using to sell wherever you are: guess what; they were driven by Jita in some way. Jita sets the tone for the rest of Eve be it null sec or low sec (WH is a bit debatable, but they have never had fully flushed out markets).

How many null groups do NOT base their SRP or markets off of Jita prices?


Soon my friend soon the wh markets will rise. And when they do? .....


Yeah they will be driven more or less by jita

BLOPS Hauler
The 16.8km Bubble
Tipa Riot
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#43 - 2016-04-27 11:55:24 UTC
Zappity wrote:
I hope CCP does a careful analysis on the effects of these increased sinks and costs on isk velocity and volumes.

I'm eagerly waiting for CCP Quant's next report. We all know what would happen in RL markets, I'm not that optimistic that EvE is much different ...

... the problem with the current direction of development is IMO, that all recent new features and changes incentivice the big groups on the expense of smaller entities. The entry barrier to self-paced "life" in New Eden is risen again. The new(?) ideal is to join and get absorbed by one of the big "hordes". Probably this is what is shown to CCP management as the best way to raise retention.

I'm my own NPC alt.
Rek Seven
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#44 - 2016-04-27 12:05:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Rek Seven
I feel citadels in wormhole space will need some additional market functionality. As there will only be a small fraction of items available on the market compared to K-space, we need a way to quickly see the buy/sell orders available.

This allow wormholes to quickly see the trade opportunities available with their neighbours and as a result, successfully open markets will start to grow. Without this, i feel trade between wormholers will be non-existent.

The wishlist is pretty much complete...
Splatus
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#45 - 2016-04-27 12:22:49 UTC
Someone remind me - the owner of the structure can allow specific individuals to use the facilities, correct?

That means a solo industrialist can ask nicely anyone with a refining array and gain access. The owner of the station loses nothing (unlike POS, someone "docking" is not a security risk) but gains ISK through fees and additional security because now the array is used by more people who would be negatively impacted by its destruction.

Thats the alternative to a) joining a large corp, b) using NPC stations or 3) setting up their own structure.

If this is correct, its a pretty decent size bonus for solo players.
Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine
In Tea We Trust
#46 - 2016-04-27 12:22:53 UTC
Rek Seven wrote:
As there will only be a small fraction of items available on the market compared to K-space, we need a way to quickly see the buy/sell orders available.

Click the "show only available" check box in the market window.
Rek Seven
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#47 - 2016-04-27 12:25:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Rek Seven
Bad Bobby wrote:
Rek Seven wrote:
As there will only be a small fraction of items available on the market compared to K-space, we need a way to quickly see the buy/sell orders available.

Click the "show only available" check box in the market window.


Does that put all the different items available on one window? If not, it doesn't achieve what I'm asking for.

The wishlist is pretty much complete...
Redneck Herman
State War Academy
Caldari State
#48 - 2016-04-27 13:48:07 UTC
Echoing the feelings of many here: the tax changes seem damaging to the game as a whole
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
#49 - 2016-04-27 15:16:06 UTC
Splatus wrote:
Someone remind me - the owner of the structure can allow specific individuals to use the facilities, correct?

That means a solo industrialist can ask nicely anyone with a refining array and gain access. The owner of the station loses nothing (unlike POS, someone "docking" is not a security risk) but gains ISK through fees and additional security because now the array is used by more people who would be negatively impacted by its destruction.

Thats the alternative to a) joining a large corp, b) using NPC stations or 3) setting up their own structure.

If this is correct, its a pretty decent size bonus for solo players.



Correct.

Docking and service access are managed by access lists. These can contain people, corporations, alliances, or Public (or a mix there of)

Woo! CSM XI!

Fuzzwork Enterprises

Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter
Splatus
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#50 - 2016-04-27 15:21:24 UTC
Steve Ronuken wrote:
Splatus wrote:
Someone remind me - the owner of the structure can allow specific individuals to use the facilities, correct?

That means a solo industrialist can ask nicely anyone with a refining array and gain access. The owner of the station loses nothing (unlike POS, someone "docking" is not a security risk) but gains ISK through fees and additional security because now the array is used by more people who would be negatively impacted by its destruction.

Thats the alternative to a) joining a large corp, b) using NPC stations or 3) setting up their own structure.

If this is correct, its a pretty decent size bonus for solo players.



Correct.

Docking and service access are managed by access lists. These can contain people, corporations, alliances, or Public (or a mix there of)


Thank you for clarification. I understand that the percentage of taxes may be still under review but the system itself is a heck of a lot more interesting and newbro friendly than the old one.

In the old one, a newbro has to either live with NPC corps or join some corporation who will let him have POS access. Both not ideal

I am out of the client right now, but are the taxes charged advertised in the "structure finder"? I.e. is there a competitive market for structures that a solo industrialist can use?
Soldarius
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#51 - 2016-04-27 17:04:13 UTC
Drago Shouna wrote:
So as things stand atm, a standard pos gives a base refining rate of 52% With a max refining rate of 75.3%.

An Intensive array gives 54% and 78.1% respectively.

Has anyone worked out the refining % on a rigged Medium Citadel with max skills yet? Because it's going to have to be a hell of a lot better to make it even remotely worthwhile, particularly as it has a base rate of 50%. Bearing in mind the fuel costs I don't think it's going to be possible to make it anywhere close to as profitable, not in the short, or long term.


Should be 87.52% using a T2 rigged Citadel in nul/w-space with max skills and 4% implant.

http://youtu.be/YVkUvmDQ3HY
Nyjil Lizaru
Federal Defense Union
Gallente Federation
#52 - 2016-04-27 18:16:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Nyjil Lizaru
Currently, our 3rd largest hub (Dodixie) cannot maintain stock of needed items (at any price, not just 'reasonable' ones); so why does CCP even think that regional markets will replace trade hubs? I do (did) a lot of corp fitting, and I tried working out of Dodixie for months, but gave up and moved to Jita because I just got too frustrated at missing modules. And I was doing that work for a smallish corp, I can't imagine what it's like for large groups. I like the goal of giving the power to the players, but I doubt this is going to work out the way CCP thinks it will.

Put me in this camp:
Zappity wrote:
I hope CCP does a careful analysis on the effects of these increased sinks and costs on isk velocity and volumes.

Nyjil's corollary to Malcanis' Law:   "Any attempt by CCP to smooth the learning curve of EVE Online will be carried out via the addition of extra factors and 'features' such that there is a net increase in complexity."
Akira Nailo
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#53 - 2016-04-27 18:34:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Akira Nailo
How Did i know the CCP Fozzie would be behind this. Changing reprocessing to now cost money? We losing all the good Devs and THIS is what we are keeping... Sigh. Fozzie i hope you read this is really do this is now your 2nd **** poor idea (thats being kind) If you have any other great ideas please put them on paper, then light it on fire, and mix the ashes.
Indahmawar Fazmarai
#54 - 2016-04-27 18:52:05 UTC
Nyjil Lizaru wrote:
Currently, our 3rd largest hub (Dodixie) cannot maintain stock of needed items (at any price, not just 'reasonable' ones); so why does CCP even think that regional markets will replace trade hubs? I do (did) a lot of corp fitting, and I tried working out of Dodixie for months, but gave up and moved to Jita because I just got too frustrated at missing modules. And I was doing that work for a smallish corp, I can't imagine what it's like for large groups. I like the goal of giving the power to the players, but I doubt this is going to work out the way CCP thinks it will.

Put me in this camp:
Zappity wrote:
I hope CCP does a careful analysis on the effects of these increased sinks and costs on isk velocity and volumes.


Well, Dodixie is a part of high security space, nicknamed "highsec". Highsec is not very high in CCP's priority list, with all the cool stuff being handed to nullsec for design reasons(?).

There's been an elephant in the room for years and maybe now it will start moving. SPs where the last goal to certain players, and now that goal is being sold and bought so fast that not even PLEX can keep its value. People want to get out of the game and get out ASAP, with a ful load of their favorite skills.

But hey. Surely those people ar a little few fringe cases. Like the people who left when POCOs were implemented because they didn't wanted to pay taxes to some PvP *******.
Steve Ronuken
Fuzzwork Enterprises
Vote Steve Ronuken for CSM
#55 - 2016-04-27 23:24:14 UTC
Akira Nailo wrote:
How Did i know the CCP Fozzie would be behind this. Changing reprocessing to now cost money? We losing all the good Devs and THIS is what we are keeping... Sigh. Fozzie i hope you read this is really do this is now your 2nd **** poor idea (thats being kind) If you have any other great ideas please put them on paper, then light it on fire, and mix the ashes.



This one's been requested for a long time, by people running Outposts.

So they don't need to gather the minerals and sell them themselves.

Woo! CSM XI!

Fuzzwork Enterprises

Twitter: @fuzzysteve on Twitter
Lugh Crow-Slave
#56 - 2016-04-28 00:09:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Lugh Crow-Slave
Steve Ronuken wrote:
Akira Nailo wrote:
How Did i know the CCP Fozzie would be behind this. Changing reprocessing to now cost money? We losing all the good Devs and THIS is what we are keeping... Sigh. Fozzie i hope you read this is really do this is now your 2nd **** poor idea (thats being kind) If you have any other great ideas please put them on paper, then light it on fire, and mix the ashes.



This one's been requested for a long time, by people running Outposts.

So they don't need to gather the minerals and sell them themselves.


so do to lazyness?

an est cost tax is so bad

rather than getting 5% of the minerals for a 5% tax i could get 2%-10% the isk value based on the market that day if they are going to do this estv needs to get better

EDIT: at the very least they could make it a choice

BLOPS Hauler
The 16.8km Bubble
Droidster
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#57 - 2016-04-28 01:49:35 UTC
I am not a Jita market trader, but I can say this change is idiotic and pointless. It reminds of the absurd taxes and other childish restrictions on the "auction houses" in WOW that prevented those systems from being anything but low volume market stalls.

By making this change liquidity on the markets will be greatly reduced. I just did a price report run on a private system I had and it showed the average spread on PI materials right now is over 40% (I pasted a portion of the printout at the bottom of this post). Before the patch spreads averaged around 15%.

I realize that the average person has no understanding or appreciation for market mechanisms and there are probably a whole bunch of PVP players says "good, more taxes" (yes, I have literally read posts that say this), so I just a squeak in the wilderness here. But, for the record of posterity I am just recording that this change was completely idiotic.

                                       Buy Price       Sell Price       Spread   
(01)  ...............Aqueous Liquids            1.83            3.62          1.79  49.39%
(02)  ....................Autotrophs            4.48           14.81         10.33  69.74%
(03)  ...................Base Metals            2.04            7.29          5.25  72.01%
(04)  ..............Carbon Compounds            0.66            7.14          6.48  90.78%
(05)  .............Complex Organisms            4.08           12.21          8.13  66.55%
(06)  ..................Felsic Magma            4.27           23.78         19.51  82.05%
(07)  ..................Heavy Metals            2.68            4.42          1.74  39.37%
(08)  ...............Ionic Solutions            1.32            4.74          3.42  72.14%
(09)  ................Microorganisms            1.29            2.45          1.17  47.59%
(10)  .....................Noble Gas            1.66            2.55          0.89  34.90%
(11)  ..................Noble Metals            3.90            4.93          1.03  20.85%
(12)  ...............Non-CS Crystals            3.56            6.48          2.92  45.04%
(13)  .............Planktic Colonies            4.56            7.88          3.32  42.16%
(14)  ..................Reactive Gas            1.61           26.80         25.19  93.98%
(15)  ..............Suspended Plasma            1.75            4.58          2.83  61.72%
(16)  ......................Bacteria          338           1,376         1,038     75.43%
(17)  ......................Biofuels          276             367            91     24.87%
Farmer Johnson's Daughter
United Federation Of Space Dealers
Already Replaced.
#58 - 2016-04-28 02:19:48 UTC
Just wanted to drop in and saying thanks for screwing over the traders with this a$$ backwards tax hike, congrats, you've pissed off the people who drive the friggen market.

Pathetic
Rhett Cutler
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#59 - 2016-04-28 03:42:06 UTC
This is my first post ever.

I have five accounts

Citadel expansion.......yeah, right.

As a minor note on the release blog it buries something about taxes and broker fees changing with a reason........that CCP wants to see how the market will react to a "small" change. Small change, yeah right. To me it's a huge change.

I have been playing over two years as a solo trader. My goal is to amass a net worth of a trillion isk. That's fun for me. So far I'm 12% of the way there. I buy and sell. I buy and sell lots. I live and trade in High Sec.

And then today. after grinding out ten thousandths of a broker fee point (off the trillions that go thru my trading hub .......and it is trillions) I discover in the fine print that CCP has changed the broker fees by a factor of eight to ten for me "to see how the market will react" It is buried in the overwhelming coverage of new new new null sec stuff. Not much mention of why economically massive tax and fee changes were required.


To trade my way to a trillion takes a lot of building and reinvestment. A ten thousanth of a pecentage point adds up. Now it appears my low broker/tax total has gone from just over 1% to almost triple that. Now while that may sound small....I buy my ore (one station broker fee) and then sell my product (another broker fee in my production) My net profits are under ten percent...... when they sell. Ya think CCP just broke my game?

I'm frustrated....and today for the first time.....I quit early. Not sure what I'll do in the future. Don't need your sympathy nor ISK. I just want my gaming style respected and if changes must be made maybe a little more info and debate on why. Paying customers are not mere guinea pigs for testing and monitoring theories.

Rhett & company
Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine
In Tea We Trust
#60 - 2016-04-28 04:24:35 UTC  |  Edited by: Bad Bobby
Rhett Cutler wrote:
As a minor note on the release blog it buries something about taxes and broker fees changing with a reason........that CCP wants to see how the market will react to a "small" change. Small change, yeah right. To me it's a huge change.

I have been playing over two years as a solo trader. My goal is to amass a net worth of a trillion isk. That's fun for me. So far I'm 12% of the way there. I buy and sell. I buy and sell lots. I live and trade in High Sec.

And then today. after grinding out ten thousandths of a broker fee point (off the trillions that go thru my trading hub .......and it is trillions) I discover in the fine print that CCP has changed the broker fees by a factor of eight to ten for me "to see how the market will react" It is buried in the overwhelming coverage of new new new null sec stuff. Not much mention of why economically massive tax and fee changes were required.


To trade my way to a trillion takes a lot of building and reinvestment. A ten thousanth of a pecentage point adds up. Now it appears my low broker/tax total has gone from just over 1% to almost triple that. Now while that may sound small....I buy my ore (one station broker fee) and then sell my product (another broker fee in my production) My net profits are under ten percent...... when they sell. Ya think CCP just broke my game?

I'm frustrated....and today for the first time.....I quit early. Not sure what I'll do in the future. Don't need your sympathy nor ISK. I just want my gaming style respected and if changes must be made maybe a little more info and debate on why. Paying customers are not mere guinea pigs for testing and monitoring theories.

Rhett & company

I feel your pain.

There were two threads in this forum section covering it. But this forum section isn't very visible and isn't read by most.

It was missed off the patch notes and, I think, added at the last moment.

The discussion thread also attracted a lot of questions for which few answers were given. I'm still waiting for them to tell us what the roll out plan and finer details of this specific change are, a day after it has been released.

I think it's safe to say communication has been lacking.