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Mutli-Use Analyzers Feedback Thread

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Yadaryon Vondawn
Vicanthya
#21 - 2016-04-25 13:57:45 UTC
I have been waiting for such a module for such a long time :)

One thing I have to ask though: Why incorporate 3 of the 4 high-tech items and not all 4?

As for the debate above, I think there should be a third faction version of this module that compares with the current tech 2 data/relic analysers. This item should be very rare and expensive to make.

I think such a module is great for exploration ships and especially for sleeper sites!
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#22 - 2016-04-25 14:05:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Rivr Luzade
Yadaryon Vondawn wrote:
I think such a module is great for exploration ships and especially for sleeper sites!

In particular in sleeper sites this module is worthless because you need the high coherence and virus strength of a T2 to reliably and quickly hack the cans in order to not blow up (in particular in the Superior Cache). Higher coherence and strength weigh a lot more than a saved mid slot that cannot be filled with anything meaningful. The only thing this module will achieve is more people exploding in these sites because they got tricked by CCP into thinking that an open mid slot is better than higher coherence/strength.

In general, however, I agree with Sabriz Adoudel's post. The suggested price tag is a bit excessive, though.

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.
Valence Benedetto
South of Heaven Ltd
Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
#23 - 2016-04-25 14:33:20 UTC
I think you guys should just ask yourselves whether having separate modules for data and relic makes EVE a better or more interesting game. Personally, I don't see it.

Related - exploration is considered one of the beginner-friendly ways to play EVE. So there is some further argument for streamlining.
Yadaryon Vondawn
Vicanthya
#24 - 2016-04-25 14:34:19 UTC
Rivr Luzade wrote:
Yadaryon Vondawn wrote:
I think such a module is great for exploration ships and especially for sleeper sites!

In particular in sleeper sites this module is worthless because you need the high coherence and virus strength of a T2 to reliably and quickly hack the cans in order to not blow up (in particular in the Superior Cache). Higher coherence and strength weigh a lot more than a saved mid slot that cannot be filled with anything meaningful. The only thing this module will achieve is more people exploding in these sites because they got tricked by CCP into thinking that an open mid slot is better than higher coherence/strength.

In general, however, I agree with Sabriz Adoudel's post. The suggested price tag is a bit excessive, though.


I know! Hence my suggestion to create a faction version that is on par with current T2 data/relic modules. I consider sleeper sites the pinacle of exploration challenge and as such I think it would be fitting to engage those sites with a similiar high class module :)
Amak Boma
Dragon Factory
xX SERENITY Xx
#25 - 2016-04-25 14:34:29 UTC
give gnosis bonus to using the faction modules lets say 10% coherence and virus strenght kick off weapon bonus for gnosis and allow gnosis to use covert cyno or reduce speed penalty for using non-covert cloaking devices
Gospadin
Bastard Children of Poinen
#26 - 2016-04-25 14:45:31 UTC
Can someone explain to me the gameplay value of having separate relic and data sites with identical mechanics?

Fitting 2 modules isn't a meaningful choice at all. 2x the skills, 2x the modules, for the same outcome. (Though admittedly crappy on data sites).

IMO just have a single hacking module with a single skill that works on both, and move on.
Gospadin
Bastard Children of Poinen
#27 - 2016-04-25 14:46:32 UTC
Valence Benedetto wrote:
I think you guys should just ask yourselves whether having separate modules for data and relic makes EVE a better or more interesting game. Personally, I don't see it.

Related - exploration is considered one of the beginner-friendly ways to play EVE. So there is some further argument for streamlining.


Exactly my point. I don't see anything interesting from keeping them split.
Thea Jones
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#28 - 2016-04-25 14:47:19 UTC
I really believe you are making this overly complicated.

Merge the Hacking and Data analyzers into just 1 module. You can make faction versions that gives you better range as well as higher strength.

And just leave it as that.

TLDR.. there really is no real need to have this as two separate modules anymore.
Jack Hayson
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#29 - 2016-04-25 14:50:26 UTC
Why would you want to hack data sites? They only drop worthless cr*p anyway.
Tipa Riot
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#30 - 2016-04-25 14:58:11 UTC
As a ceptor explorer I need to max out my strength because of the non-bonused hull, so I wouldn't use a module with lower strength. Anyway it's too expensive for a 30m ship and there are not many situations where I would need both analyzers as I'm going either for relic or (in drone lands) data sites. As an explorer hunter I appreciate the introduction of new expensive modules of course. Blink

I'm my own NPC alt.
Damjan Fox
Fox Industries and Exploration
#31 - 2016-04-25 15:18:06 UTC
Quote:
Max virus strength is too important to consider using these. ... These are an example of something that could be balanced by rarity. Mirror the T2 stats, but aim for a high price tag...

I agree here. I don't see these new modules being used that much. They are too bad in performance to be an option.
If a new faction analyzer had the current Tech2 stats for both datas and relics, i would totally use it (even if it is expensive)

Quote:
One thing I have to ask though: Why incorporate 3 of the 4 high-tech items and not all 4?

Yeah, what about the "High-Tech Small Arms" components?

Proposal: >>> New Inventory / Item Hangar <<<
Jeremiah Saken
The Fall of Leviathan
#32 - 2016-04-25 15:35:18 UTC
Damjan Fox wrote:
I don't see these new modules being used that much. They are too bad in performance to be an option.
If a new faction analyzer had the current Tech2 stats for both datas and relics, i would totally use it (even if it is expensive)

This. Merge data and relics modules but with high price (I have no idea what is high in that case ). This would be meaningfull choice. Hacking game is random, best option is to have T2 modules fitted.

"I am tormented with an everlasting itch for things remote. I love to sail forbidden seas..." - Herman Melville
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#33 - 2016-04-25 15:37:50 UTC
Jack Hayson wrote:
Why would you want to hack data sites? They only drop worthless cr*p anyway.

Your T2 ships don't grow on trees, you know? And even less do affordable T2 ships build with good decryptors. Roll

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.
Teodora Sidh
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#34 - 2016-04-25 15:43:20 UTC
http://clip2net.com/s/3xmvnss Why buy steel for 3 days
CCP RedDawn
C C P
C C P Alliance
#35 - 2016-04-25 15:43:21 UTC
Thanks for all the thoughts so far. Couple of things:

* I get the concerns with the lower strength, but I don't want to make the ‘Zeugma’ Integrated Analyzer (the stronger one) the 'always go-to' option. They have to have some limitations with their dual benefit. (I already see that players are skilled enough in the hacking game that the loss of a utility element slot might not be so detrimental on its own)

* In regards to the overall combination of both data and relic sites, I'd much rather introduce a higher level of variance to both of the hacking variations overall than combine them together. The hacking game itself has so much more depth potential which I wish to revisit in the future

* Small Arms just don't make enough contextual sense to be included in the building materials
In conjunction with these new modules, the Small Arms will be removed completely from the data site loot tables

* I'm going to increase the overall activation range of both of these modules as well

* Scripts are an interesting idea, but I think that in the future we can introduce a much more varied hacking experience with the introduction of different types of defense software and utility elements (again, increasing the difference of the data and relic hacking experiences)

Please keep the feedback coming.

Team Genesis
Sharps
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#36 - 2016-04-25 15:45:13 UTC
The "interesting" part of exploration is the risk of surprise PVP while you're doing the hacking. Meaningful module choices should emphasize this risk instead of being merely more convenient.

Meaningful tradeoffs for stronger modules:
- Sig radius bloom
- Velocity reduction
- Warp core strength reduction
- Cloak reactivation delay after module cycle
- Disables directional scan while active
- Disables local while active
Tethys Luxor
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#37 - 2016-04-25 15:45:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Tethys Luxor

  • Interceptors with T2 analyser and no coherence rigs have more than 95% success rate on highest difficulty minigames
  • Covops with the Zeugma new module will have better stats than interceptors have with T2 analysers.


So Covops can choose between stomping cans with T2 analyser or trade that hack comfort for more flexibility (scan modules, cargo scanner, use a ship with less midslot). Inty will not have that option.

So IMHO, you will have a bit more people running data sites and sleeper caches. Covops gain a small incentive over interceptors but that's not that much, especially since one inty can fit both analysers.

This is not a fantastic change, but it adds choices.

Scripts for switching data/relic does not work for me. It's brainless. However scripts to tune stats can be cool.
Lastly, maybe highest difficulty is too easy at this time.
Advenat Bedala
Facehoof
#38 - 2016-04-25 15:48:02 UTC
I have proposal to made 2 asymmetric modules
One more relic, other more data

Stats like this:


‘Ligature’ Integrated Analyzer (more Relic version)

Volume 5 m3
Activation Cost 25 GJ
Optimal Range 5500 m
Activation Time / Duration 10 seconds

Relic Virus Coherence 56
Relic Virus Strength 30

Data Virus Coherence 40
Data Virus Strength 20

Virus Utility Element Slots 2
Tech Level 2
CPU usage 40

Same for more Data version.
epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#39 - 2016-04-25 15:51:20 UTC  |  Edited by: epicurus ataraxia
CCP RedDawn wrote:
Hi all.

After releasing some information regarding this during Fanfest, I'd like to get your feedback on two new Storyline exploration modules.

I propose to release two new mid slot 'hacking' modules, that can open both Data and Relic containers.
This would free up a mid slot for all explorers who wish to use these modules, rather then having to fit both the Data and Relic Analyzers separately.
However as these modules would combine two separate 'functions' together, they will be less effective generally than their individual, specialised counterparts.

The BPC's for these modules would drop from all Data exploration sites.
The ‘Ligature’ Integrated Analyzer BPC would drop from the lower end Info Shard and Com Tower containers, while the ‘Zeugma’ Integrated Analyzer BPC would drop from the higher end Mainframe and Databank containers.


Now on to the stats.

‘Ligature’ Integrated Analyzer

Volume 5 m3
Activation Cost 20 GJ
Optimal Range 5000 m
Activation Time / Duration 10 seconds
Virus Coherence 30
Virus Strength 15
Virus Utility Element Slots 2
Tech Level 1
CPU usage 25


‘Zeugma’ Integrated Analyzer

Volume 5 m3
Activation Cost 20 GJ
Optimal Range 6000 m
Activation Time / Duration 10 seconds
Virus Coherence 50
Virus Strength 20
Virus Utility Element Slots 2
Tech Level 2
CPU usage 30



To manufacture these modules, you will require the following:


‘Ligature’ Integrated Analyzer

Relic Analyzer I x1
Data Analyzer I x1
High-Tech Data Chip x500
High-Tech Manufacturing Tools x500
High-Tech Scanner x500


‘Zeugma’ Integrated Analyzer

Relic Analyzer II x1
Data Analyzer II x1
High-Tech Data Chip x1000
High-Tech Manufacturing Tools x1000
High-Tech Scanner x1000

You will also require both of the same Data and Relic skills that the Tech I and Tech II current analyzers use.

That's it for now, please share your thoughts, ideas and concerns.

Fly safe, (and thanks for an awesome Fanfest yet again) Big smile
CCP RedDawn


In principle this is a lovely idea.

Losing a little coherence is disappointing but bearable.

Losing virus strength is however a game breaker for these modules, If I remember correctly, in relation to the way virus strength with the current "attacks" from the minigame, Virus strength is a binary function. Ie you kill it or you don't

10 is the step that will actually determing a "kill" so effectively this is another step to kill the node, Reducing the virus strength by 4,5,8, or 10 doesn't matter, it is a failed kill. So you haven't reduced the ligature by 5 at all, you have reduced it to/by an effective 10.

Think of virus strength like a Key, it either opens the way or it doesn't, almost opening the way means you have failed to, the node still lives and the node strikes then back instead.

If virus strength is reduced by ANY amount, There is absolutely no point in these items, unless they are something to be fitted by someone who has never done the minigame before.

Please have a word with an explorer Dev, they will confirm that reducing virus strength renders this item useless. Virus strength is critical, one cannot add it with skills, implants, rigs or any fitting other than the T2 relic analyser, to take this away simply means one fails to be able to deal with things like restoration nodes, more often than not.

In it's current form, even if free, I would NEVER use either on an exploration vessel, sorry.

Tldr, reduce coherence, reduce slot for utility, even reduce the range, but do not reduce virus strength unless you want to kill the module before birth.

This can be a useful Item, but like a bucket with a hole or a spanner with the wrong sized opening, one cannot make it useful unless the core function is preserved.

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE
Jeremiah Saken
The Fall of Leviathan
#40 - 2016-04-25 16:05:52 UTC
epicurus ataraxia wrote:
Tldr, reduce coherence, reduce slot for utility, but do not reduce virus strength unless you want to kill the module before birth.

Hard to balance, if those modules have same strenght as T2 they will be almost the same as T2 because coherence can be boosted by implants. If you take too much coherence they will be useless with harder nodes (sleepers).

CCP RedDawn wrote:
* In regards to the overall combination of both data and relic sites, I'd much rather introduce a higher level of variance to both of the hacking variations overall than combine them together. The hacking game itself has so much more depth potential which I wish to revisit in the future

Decide then because there are contrary signals here. First you want to introduce modules that do them all then you want more variations overall.

I think you need to improve hacking game first then introduce new modules.

"I am tormented with an everlasting itch for things remote. I love to sail forbidden seas..." - Herman Melville