Missions & Complexes

With the changes to target painters, V skills and Faction painters have a 54km optimal and 135km falloff - so this has greatly improved damage application with cruise missiles over extended ranges. In answer to your question, no - not really. You're going to get very similar damage application between a pair of target painters and three missile guidance computers - with the added advantage of being able to split your launchers into two pairs for separate volleys.

On missions where you face off against a lot of frigates I think it's worth trading in the third MGC for one of the new heavy stasis grapplers. My new personal favorite Golem fit has a pair of target painters augmented with a grappler. You get insane DPS (over 1500 with implants) and it literally melts anything in 2-3 volleys. Rattlesnakes can't come close to touching this.

The Golem almost has the exact same bonus, only difference is it does Explo Velocity, where the CNR does Explo Radius, a T2 Rig basically fixes this, and with one TP the Golem becomes better, I generally see at least 1 TP on almost all CNR's I come across.

There's some debate as to whether you're better off with a pair of target painters or a pair of scripted missile guidance computers. TPs with rigors and flares probably trumps scripted MGCs, but separately on their own I think they're very close in terms of damage application. And what about the changes to capacitor batteries and the new heavy grappler?

So no, I don't think it's exactly cut and dry and I definitely think some of the old "standard" Golem configurations could benefit with an update.

I'd like to throw up a fit for discussion. With implants this puts out 1165 DPS (1371 DPS overheated) out to a range of 56km. Drones bring this to 1268 DPS. Faction launchers are relatively cheap (~12m ISK), and you don't lose half your EHP utilizing a Polarized fit (which has a tendency to lose DPS due to the launchers being too fast). Faction launchers also hold 15% more ammo (46 torpedoes).

With a pair of Faction target painters, a Faction grappler and the MGE - you essentially single-volley anything smaller than battleships and Elite cruisers (including most frigates). Target painters have a 54km optimal range (max skills), which places them exactly where you need them for torpedoes. Aside from having less range, Faction torpedoes deal more damage with higher damage application than Fury cruise missiles at a noticeably faster rate of fire.

You almost never need to drop into Bastion because it tanks almost 400-omni DPS (jumping to almost 1200-omni DPS in Bastion). With the two capacitor batteries you can run the Gist X-Large shield booster for almost 9min (almost 12min without the TPs and Grappler).

If one feels the fit is too blingy it's easy to drop down to T2 module versions and a Pith X-Type.

[Golem, Golem]

Dread Guristas Torpedo Launcher, Caldari Navy Inferno Torpedo
Dread Guristas Torpedo Launcher, Caldari Navy Inferno Torpedo
Dread Guristas Torpedo Launcher, Caldari Navy Inferno Torpedo
Dread Guristas Torpedo Launcher, Caldari Navy Inferno Torpedo
Bastion Module I
Small Tractor Beam II
Small Tractor Beam II
Salvager I

Gist X-Type 500MN Microwarpdrive
Thukker Large Cap Battery
Republic Fleet Target Painter
Heavy Shadow Serpentis Stasis Grappler
Republic Fleet Target Painter
Thukker Large Cap Battery
Gist X-Type X-Large Shield Booster

Dread Guristas Ballistic Control System
Dread Guristas Ballistic Control System
Dread Guristas Ballistic Control System
Missile Guidance Enhancer II

Large Hydraulic Bay Thrusters II
Large Hydraulic Bay Thrusters II

'Augmented' Hornet x5

[/quote]

This!!

Hey, Ace, everyone knows she was talking about cruise missiles. She actually answered all your questions in one shot. This really didn't have to be a team effort to come up with a good fit, and maybe that's why the hint of sarcasm.

-Kirst[/quote]

She answered nothing at all.. She didn't explain anything, at all, so no, she answered nothing.

Reason for this was to work out whats best and all that stuff, much the same as how a PvP fit works, not slap stuff together because it has a bonus for it, as Authur has said, in some versions an MGC is better then a TP, in fact, a MGC might be better then a Faction TP out of Optimal, as do Missile arch-types vary with this module, the idea of a Grappler is also more beneficial then a 3rd or even 2nd TP, against almost all NPC's, she took none of this into consideration, instead insisted on presenting a dumbed down "How to fit like a moron" write up, a fit that has been thought out will beat one that she can come out with, something people need to learn in this game is how to make their own fits, and what things they should consider, rather then Googling a fit and running with it, and wondering why it sucks or why they can't get it to do what the design said it can, for example, I can give you my Megaranis, and i promise you, you couldn't fly it properly if your life depended on it, you wouldn't be able to apply DPS, you wouldn't be able to handle the Speed or Inertia, that is because it was custom made by me to counter a paticular threat, and it was tested and designed over weeks, not 5 seconds of looking at the bonus's, same can be said about nay fit.

So no, she answered none of it, in fact, all she did was deconstruct a fit and ramble on about nothing, which is exactly what I say in the OP not to do, so in fact, she did the opposite of answer the OP.

So Ion Kirst, this thread was not about me needing help to build a Golem, I have 3 I run, 1 with Torp and 2 with Cruise, I wanted help in working out what was the most effecient, what worked best as an all round result, and why it did, so people can actually see why things are that way, why you chose A instead of B, and why X lets you fit D and E, which is better then Y and O because blah blah blah, if you read the OP, you might have understood that.

Probably not. In fact, you could easily substitute T2 modules where need be until CPU becomes constrained. An X-Type Deadspace MWD and X-Large shield booster are probably the only essential items because it defeats the purpose to boost your capacitor and then negate 20% or more with a T2 or Faction equivalents.

Three Faction BCSs are the equivalent of four T2 BCSs so the fourth low slot becomes a bonus for a DCU or a MGE (as in my example), and since there's a huge CPU savings I usually go this route. The MGE probably yields more in effective damage application (12%) than a fourth BCS (~4.5%) in addition to extending range by about ~10%. You can get slightly more range by a combination of Hydraulic Bay Thrusters and Rocket Fuel Cache, but I personally prefer the extra ~20% velocity bonus to torpedoes at the slight hit to range (faster target elimination and less lost volleys).

You can run T2 torpedo launchers and they do offer an advantage of being able to swap out for Javelin (although your DPS ends up dropping to on par with Fury cruise, so you're better going that route). I prefer to just MWD or MJD within range or run a different configuration for those missions where range is going to be an issue. Faction torpedo launchers give you ~77% the capacity of Polarized versions without any of the ill effects (and roughly the same price).

I have mixed feelings with the Grappler in PvE. I think it's a must-have for PvP, but the benefits are not as great in PvE. It's definitely geared more towards short-range missiles like rapid heavies or torpedoes where it enhances the higher damage application, and it shines most when used in combination with target painters. When used with a long-range cruise setup it loses most of its effectiveness.

The only real drawback with Faction torpedoes over Fury cruise missiles is the cost. But the extra 20-30% DPS really can't be beat in short-range engagements.

Using the missile formula, I ran a few numbers with various types of munitions and the various damage application modules and rigs against a lot of the common NPC ships one faces.

The Great Torpedo vs. Cruise Debate
With few exceptions, cruise missiles will always trump torpedoes on the vast majority of missions - even with less overall DPS. To even get close to the range of cruise missiles you need to swap to Javelin torpedoes, which end up doing less damage than Fury cruise missiles. Polarized torpedo launchers do an obscene amount of DPS on paper, but by the time you factor in maneuvering, time to target and occasional lost volleys - it ends up being very close. There is also the associated cost of utilizing Faction torpedoes (Rage are mostly ineffective for a variety of reasons) which run about 5x more than the cost of Fury cruise missiles. Polarized launchers also cripple your EHP and will gimp aspects like warp speed, flexibility, capacitor and damage application to make up for this deficiency. I personally love torpedoes - and I wish they were in a better place - but it is what it is.

To Paint or Not to Paint, That is the Question
For all intents and purposes, a pair of MGCs are roughly equivalent to Faction TPs - even with the improvements to TPs in the last update. This becomes more apparent if you run your launchers in pairs, because splitting them up with TPs causes you to potentially lose half you damage application against smaller targets. In terms of capacitor use, TPs are less energy-intensive than MGCs - although this is a tertiary consideration. With MGCs there's really no reason to run rigors or flares anymore, because a single precision-scripted MGC yields almost as much as a pair of T2 rigs. At longer ranges in excess of 50km MGCs really start to shine over TPs as there is no potential loss to falloff. Previous setups saw the use of a pair of MGCs with 1-2 TPs for use against smaller targets, but this was until the introduction of the heavy stasis grappler.

Grappling With Damage Application
The new HSG is pretty much a must have on all Golem fits, and I dare say it should replace a TP. While it's not going to enable you to single-volley Elite cruisers and frigates (unless you switch ammunition), it absolutely murders those pesky NPC drones because they like to orbit right inside optimal range. The HSG also cycles incredibly fast, which results in extreme drops in target speeds. The added assistance it lends a flight of light fighters against frigates also can't be underestimated, and it has an effective range that extends out well past 30km.

So here's a short list of equipment for an optimized Golem fit:
• Four T2 cruise launchers with Cruise Missile Specialization IV at a minimum (V preferable). Fury ammunition.
• 3-4 Faction BCS (4 total), a T2 Bay Loading Accelerator and either +5 or +6 GP-8, TN-9 and RL-10 implants. Rate of fire is actually more important than damage, because not only are cruise launchers very sluggish but you're often applying more damage than you need to destroy a target. For targets that need more damage, a rig or implant usually won't cut it anyway.
• A pair of precision-scripted T2 MGCs. Both TPs and a HSG will apply more damage application than a third MGC, which is why you should run at least the HSG. If your fit allows, a single Faction TP with a pair of T2 MGCs will allow you to double-volley most Elite cruisers off the field (especially if grappled as well). I find that just keeping a few Precision cruise missiles is usually best for dealing with Elite frigates, cruisers and drones.
• Augmented drones (I like Hornets) for hybrid damage along with a T2 drone link augmentor to extend range (often you'll find your drone range is short by 5-10km so this addresses that). Two flights of salvage drones are probably more effective than a single salvager anyway.
• A large Faction cap battery. I find that this addresses the capacitor deficiency on the Golem, as well as providing some neut protection in the handful of missions where it's applicable.
• Either a large Deadspace shield booster+amplifier (cap stable) or X-large Deadspace shield booster. I run into a lot of disconnects, so being able to perma-run (or near perma-run) my shield booster is paramount.

With the above, you will be able to eliminate:
• Most battleships within 2-4 volleys (some Drone battleships are more troublesome with varying resistances; the HSG is particularly effective against close-range Angel battleships)
• All destroyers, battlecruisers, most cruisers and some non-Elite (stationary) frigates with 1 volley
• All Elite cruisers with 2 volleys (with the use of either a TP/HSG or Precision ammunition)
• All Elite frigates in 2-3 volleys (with the use of a TP/HSG and Precision ammunition)
• All drones with a HSG and Precision ammunition in 1-2 volleys (I prefer to use a HSG and light drones once they orbit)

On a final note, there was some discussion @FanFest of possibly allowing non-capital Faction weapons to utilize T2 ammunition. If so, Faction launchers would provide a slight rate of fire and ammunition capacity increase. Something to consider down the road, anyway.

Ace said to Kirst:

" I can give you my Megaranis, and i promise you, you couldn't fly it properly if your life depended on it, you wouldn't be able to apply DPS, you wouldn't be able to handle the Speed or Inertia,"

You have to come down off your holier than thou attitude, especially with your date of birth. 8-28-2015 Please enlighten us all with your amount of SP.

Some people can do a lot of things in a short time, but I really doubt with the short time you have been on EVE that you have acquired all the skills necessary for gunnery, missiles , shields, armor, and the supports skills to run a Golem and a Megaranis efficiently.

To make a statement like you did, directly at me is irresponsible. You have no idea of what I have done in EVE, or what I can or cannot do.

I will be polite for now and say no more.

-Kirst

What you are feeling is absolutely correct.

I am over tanked, and I like it. I like it very much. With the Bastion the hp/4s double to over 3500!

Some newer pilots may try to use 4 TPs, they could end up having a weak tank. If they hit a trigger, they could get overwhelmed, and be forced to warp out.

I like my set up very much, it works just fine. I tried some of the new mods and said, meh

What exactly is my particular "play style"? I target, apply damage, and target disappears quickly.

I've been doing missions for a very long time, easily about 2000 or more, over the years. I use to keep a journal.

You know I did some time trials in the Golem in some comparison runs. Warp mods in a Golem really didn't speed things up.

Once I got ganked by the Infidels. Then I joined the Infidels, and we ganked a few L4 mission runners. If they want you, they will get you. So I've always tried to play safe. Maybe that's my play style?

Maybe I'll get another Golem, and try something different. Maybe. But when most targets disappear in one or two volleys, there really wouldn't be much improvement to change. Damage to BSs would likely remain the same as they would get full damage anyway.

-Kirst

Yes, I agree.

I did say, "If they want you, they will get you"

Never said my over tank would protect me. All I said is that "I've always tried to play save".

Trust me I know how quickly a person can get ganked, even in high-sec.

(your link is for a uber pimped-out CNR, where 33 ships took him down, 60B gone. Very well planned on one side, and very stupid on the other.)

-Kirst