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Fix the T3D's domination of frigates already?
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Siigari Kitawa
New Eden Archery Club
#41 - 2016-04-21 07:24:12 UTC
You people are a bunxh of real whiners. I bet most of you whining weren't around for the days of WCS-fitted Vagabonds, hmm? That was quite the time.

Need stuff moved? Push Industries will handle it. Serving highsec, lowsec and nullsec - and we do it faster and more reliably than anyone else. Ingame channel: PUSHX
Madrax573
Doomheim
#42 - 2016-04-21 08:01:59 UTC
Mark Hadden wrote:
Madrax573 wrote:
Where are all these cancerous svipuls hanging out?

I'm pretty much only flying around low sec and the only svipul I see is the pve one fitted up in my rens hanger......

And pretty much every situation I've had described to me why the svipul is OP and stuff is exactly the situation destroyers were made for!

And the argument about having a ship that can up-fight to a decent degree and then run from the stuff it can't kill.......really? Are you all kindergartners?! isn't that one of the many skills you develop as a small ship pilot?


you know you just need to undock to see them. I mean, how blind and deaf one has to be in order to miss svipuls online??
Maybe leave your small plex for a change? Because thats literally the only place you wont find a svipul in, since CCP fixed it a while ago.


Wow you sound quite mad that I'm NOT getting surprise buttsecks from svipuls all day long Shocked

I roam around low sec all the time. I can't stand plexing and only use it to control engagements. You that thing called 'tactics' right?

In the last week of playing I have only seen maybe 2 svipuls out and about apart mine in my hanger Lol
Lan Wang
Princess Aiko Hold My Hand
Safety. Net
#43 - 2016-04-21 08:11:02 UTC
tbh i dont really see svipuls that often, the occasional fleet of them gatecamping and the odd solo one but i honestly wouldnt say the cancer is as bad as Ishtars online was, i see more vexors than svipuls

Domination Nephilim - Angel Cartel

Calm down miner. As you pointed out, people think they can get away with stuff they would not in rl... Like for example illegal mining... - Ima Wreckyou*
Fourteen Maken
Karma and Causality
#44 - 2016-04-21 16:03:32 UTC
Siigari Kitawa wrote:
You people are a bunxh of real whiners. I bet most of you whining weren't around for the days of WCS-fitted Vagabonds, hmm? That was quite the time.


so don't fix the broken things because another thing used to be broken
W0lf Crendraven
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#45 - 2016-04-21 18:18:10 UTC
Madrax573 wrote:
Mark Hadden wrote:
Madrax573 wrote:
Where are all these cancerous svipuls hanging out?

I'm pretty much only flying around low sec and the only svipul I see is the pve one fitted up in my rens hanger......

And pretty much every situation I've had described to me why the svipul is OP and stuff is exactly the situation destroyers were made for!

And the argument about having a ship that can up-fight to a decent degree and then run from the stuff it can't kill.......really? Are you all kindergartners?! isn't that one of the many skills you develop as a small ship pilot?


you know you just need to undock to see them. I mean, how blind and deaf one has to be in order to miss svipuls online??
Maybe leave your small plex for a change? Because thats literally the only place you wont find a svipul in, since CCP fixed it a while ago.


Wow you sound quite mad that I'm NOT getting surprise buttsecks from svipuls all day long Shocked

I roam around low sec all the time. I can't stand plexing and only use it to control engagements. You that thing called 'tactics' right?

In the last week of playing I have only seen maybe 2 svipuls out and about apart mine in my hanger Lol



As ive said, since they cant enter smalls anymore, t3ds in general are much rarer in lowsec then everywhere esle. Before that you had 1 svipul per system.
Ria Nieyli
Nieyli Enterprises
SL33PERS
#46 - 2016-04-21 18:24:45 UTC
Valkin Mordirc wrote:
pushdogg wrote:
Calm down random forum alt. Destroyers killing frigs is how it's supposed to work.




svip's are effective against most anything, not just Frigates. The problem is they are really good cookie cutter ship. Does everything pretty well.


Also due to there introduction Assault Frigates have become next to worthless when it comes down to it, T3D can do everything they can do but better, Better tanks, Speed and Damage.


That's because Assault Frigates are horrible. Take the Retribution for example, it just wasn't good even before T3Ds got released.
Paxx Mandragoran
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#47 - 2016-04-21 22:19:17 UTC
OP, you do realize that he could have killed you the exact same way with any instalocking destroyer, right? Svipuls may have some balance issues... but giving up two fitting slots to sensor boosters so you can instalock and then pop a frigate at a gate isn't one of them.

And although it has already been pointed out... there's no such thing as an "instant-warp bookmark" from a gate. Instawarps can be created for undocking because the dock spits you out already going fast enough to warp if you are pointed in the correct direction... when you warp from a gate you are starting at zero speed, so you need to accelerate to the speed required to enter warp (75% of your max speed). (Another thing to note is that when you start from zero speed (like at a gate) then the direction your ship is pointing relative to the warp destination doesn't matter... so bookmarks cannot help (or hurt)).
Mrs Ekko
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#48 - 2016-04-23 09:54:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Mrs Ekko
Paxx Mandragoran wrote:
there's no such thing as an "instant-warp bookmark" from a gate.


This is true, However... T3D's do have the ability to almost 'instant warp'.

This is done by initiating warp in propulsion mode, then after a split second, change to another mode and because the base speed of the ship drops, it means you will already be at atleast 75% speed and initiate warp 'instantly'.

Similar to the effect of when you turn off your MWD, your speed bar jumps to full and you start to slow down.
Donnachadh
United Allegiance of Undesirables
#49 - 2016-04-24 14:46:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Donnachadh
Don't give a damn one way or the other but it seems to me that the T3 dessis are the new OP ship of the month.
Not all that long ago we had Ishtars, here an Ishtar there an Ishtar everywhere an Ishtar and people complained bitterly about it.

Now we have the T3D here, there and everywhere and yet you all (many of you who complained about the Ishtar) are all standing in line to defend the T3D's A destoryers one goal in life is to make the lives of frigate pilots everywhere living hell there is no doubt about that. However when a new ship like the T3D completely wipes out the usefulness of a once highly used ship then we have to look at it carefully. Given the number of the T3D I see around there is little doubt that they are OP, and CCP's continual nerfs to this class of ships supports that theory.

We can easily blame the pilot as many of you are the OP here, but the statistics on use etc that are coming out since the release clearly indicates that there is a problem with the balance on these ships. And to be honest if the T3D are any indicator of what the T3 cruisers are going to become the game is in a very bad place right now.
Ria Nieyli
Nieyli Enterprises
SL33PERS
#50 - 2016-04-25 08:41:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Ria Nieyli
Donnachadh wrote:
However when a new ship like the T3D completely wipes out the usefulness of a once highly used ship then we have to look at it carefully.


Which is that highly used ship? The Sabre?
Lasisha Mishi
A Blessed Bean
Pandemic Horde
#51 - 2016-04-25 16:13:47 UTC
Nitco wrote:
Doesn't seem to me like an healthy thing to have in the game but I'm sure someone would disagree just the same.

When jumping into a system and finding a hostile Svipul on gate, even warping to an instant-warp bookmark from the gate with around 2.5s align time (considerably less time than that required thanks to the BM) and a having a 33m sig, it won't help. Heck, your pod is probably gonna get popped too.

Top solo killer for the game's most popular ship (hint: ship name starts with S) this week:

https://zkillboard.com/ship/34562/solo/

- All he does is sit in Litiuara and gets free kills, minimal risk to it as well and the hull runs at only 50m or so, meaning not exactly a huge loss even if he somehow does bite the dust. He's far from the only one pulling this little tactic too.

I'm glad people are enjoying getting free kills with their Svipuls but this just detracts from the enjoyment of everyone else as it's a largely unpreventable situation, scouting every system beforehand is NOT a realistic option for most players and even the Starmap will often not suffice to prevent these losses from happening. In a single word, Tedious.

The transport of frigates and other small ships CAN be done either through alts (instead risking suicide ganks) or through courier contracts. That doesn't really change what's going on outside of highsec and increases the time investment required for many pilots just to get some proper pew-pew going.

The main point here is perhaps that this phenomenon underlines yet again what a harsh counter T3D's are to frigates, and in particular the Svipul stands out.

The Svipul is dominating according to zkillboard at the moment with 26 000 kills in the last 7 days. Sabre, an interdictor and also a minmatar anti-frigate platform, comes in second with only 14 000 kills.


Seems to me like CCP popularized frigates and created a healthy frigate meta, only to drop T3D's to hard counter it all together. That's why I feel like the current state of T3D's and especially the Svipul is unhealthy for the game. Most people I've talked to so far have echoed this sentiment as well, so why not address the issue?


Just a thought.

your issue seems to be Svipul

not T3D as a whole.

i've yet to see anyone say jackdaw or hecate are overpowered.


and confessor is the definition of glass cannon, sure it has great dmg. but its very very short range and fragile (Wolf, a t2 frigate, can wreck a confessor pretty fast)



T3D are supposed to counter frigates. even tech 2 frigates. thats why they tech 3.
Tech 1 destroyer = tech 2 frigate
tech 2 destroyer = superior to all tech 1 and tech 2 frigates. but would be equal to a hypothetical tech 3 frigate.
tech 3 destroyer = superior to that hypothetical tech 3 frigate.

in the same way a tech 2 battlecruiser can be equal to tech 3 cruisers (don't believe me? Sleipnir vs Loki, Legion, and Tengu so far. and its been pretty equal to them. though not as adaptable)



idk about svipul, but jackdaw and hecate are both in a nice spot in the meta right now.
confessor is in a fun spot, but very risky (for people who want high risk high reward)
Varys Baelish
Anodyne Biotech
#52 - 2016-04-26 00:49:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Varys Baelish
I killed two svipuls and a thrasher in a bellicose.

svipuls got locked out of smalls in FW

probably need a little balancing, but nothing like what some here are calling for.



edit: I don't know what the poster above is on about with this:

T3D are supposed to counter frigates. even tech 2 frigates. thats why they tech 3.
Tech 1 destroyer = tech 2 frigate
tech 2 destroyer = superior to all tech 1 and tech 2 frigates. but would be equal to a hypothetical tech 3 frigate.
tech 3 destroyer = superior to that hypothetical tech 3 frigate.


but it is trash
Robert Caldera
Caldera Trading and Investment
#53 - 2016-04-26 09:39:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Robert Caldera
Lasisha Mishi wrote:

T3D are supposed to counter frigates. even tech 2 frigates. thats why they tech 3.


lemme guess, you pulled this reasoning right out of your a**, correct?
Who did say something about their purpose?
I dont believe CCP brought them as counter to frigates, because there was no need - frigates had already plenty of counters in shape of T1 and T2 destroyers, and even fast locking cruisers.

I think more likely is that CCP just wanted to release some fancy new ship for no real reason and no real purpose, because players liked new ships and CCP's plan was to give players some new exciting toy instead of unexciting game balancing because they had trouble with online numbers and all, thats it.
Now, we've got to stick with svipuls and interceptors online game, until they have some mercy and fix these ships again.
Mrs Ekko
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#54 - 2016-04-27 07:28:30 UTC
Robert Caldera wrote:
Lasisha Mishi wrote:

T3D are supposed to counter frigates. even tech 2 frigates. thats why they tech 3.


lemme guess, you pulled this reasoning right out of your a**, correct?
Who did say something about their purpose?
I dont believe CCP brought them as counter to frigates, because there was no need - frigates had already plenty of counters in shape of T1 and T2 destroyers, and even fast locking cruisers.

I think more likely is that CCP just wanted to release some fancy new ship for no real reason and no real purpose, because players liked new ships and CCP's plan was to give players some new exciting toy instead of unexciting game balancing because they had trouble with online numbers and all, thats it.
Now, we've got to stick with svipuls and interceptors online game, until they have some mercy and fix these ships again.



You sound like you've been butthurt by a Svipul...

The facts are quite clear...

T3D has better DPS and Tank than all of the frigates in the game. Ofcourse they are a counter, same as a Battlecruiser is a counter to a cruiser. An example of what your saying is that you expect a Carrier to beat a Supercarrier... Its a higher teir'd ship with better stats across the board.

Funny that your also crying about interceptors... Get out of Low sec and stop being bad.
Robert Caldera
Caldera Trading and Investment
#55 - 2016-04-27 11:42:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Robert Caldera
Mrs Ekko wrote:

The facts are quite clear...

T3D has better DPS and Tank than all of the frigates in the game.


tell us more news at 11. Thats exactly the problem we complain about, welcome to the thread. Svipuls too gud.

And basically, my text you quoted, was directed at the guy who stated that they are "supposed" to do something, which I questioned.
Unless you wanna argue that they are supposed to do because they do it, then you enter a pretty slippery slope with this.
Mrs Ekko
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#56 - 2016-04-27 11:46:49 UTC
Robert Caldera wrote:
Mrs Ekko wrote:

The facts are quite clear...

T3D has better DPS and Tank than all of the frigates in the game.


tell us more news at 11. Thats exactly the problem we complain about, welcome to the thread. Svipuls too gud.

And basically, my text you quoted, was directed at the guy who stated that they are "supposed" to do something, which I questioned.
Unless you wanna argue that they are supposed to do because they do it, then you enter a pretty slippery slope with this.



Your complaining because a ship has better stats than the other?

2/10 for troll attempt...


Why not remove EVERY other ship in the game and ONLY have ventures...??? \o/

Lol... Derp
Lan Wang
Princess Aiko Hold My Hand
Safety. Net
#57 - 2016-04-27 12:01:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Lan Wang
Varys Baelish wrote:
I killed two svipuls and a thrasher in a bellicose.

svipuls got locked out of smalls in FW

probably need a little balancing, but nothing like what some here are calling for.



edit: I don't know what the poster above is on about with this:

T3D are supposed to counter frigates. even tech 2 frigates. thats why they tech 3.
Tech 1 destroyer = tech 2 frigate
tech 2 destroyer = superior to all tech 1 and tech 2 frigates. but would be equal to a hypothetical tech 3 frigate.
tech 3 destroyer = superior to that hypothetical tech 3 frigate.


but it is trash


i wouldnt say tech 1 destroyers are a counter to tech 2 frigate, t2 frigs tear t1 destroyers apart

id say the counter to t1 destroyers is t2 frigates, unless thats what you mean?

Domination Nephilim - Angel Cartel

Calm down miner. As you pointed out, people think they can get away with stuff they would not in rl... Like for example illegal mining... - Ima Wreckyou*
Robert Caldera
Caldera Trading and Investment
#58 - 2016-04-27 12:21:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Robert Caldera
Mrs Ekko wrote:


Your complaining because a ship has better stats than the other?

2/10 for troll attempt...


Why not remove EVERY other ship in the game and ONLY have ventures...??? \o/

Lol... Derp



seriously, are you a little weak in your brain? Noone complains here that one ship has better stats than the others.
We are complaining about svipul being tooo good, which reflects very well in their sheer numbers on TQ.
Gimme Sake
State War Academy
Caldari State
#59 - 2016-04-27 12:36:05 UTC
Compared to hecate or jackdaw, svipul is superior by being far more versatile. Don't think it needs a nerf bat though, just some slight adjustements.

"Never not blob!" ~ Plato
SFM Hobb3s
Perkone
Caldari State
#60 - 2016-04-28 13:43:41 UTC
Lasisha Mishi wrote:
Nitco wrote:
Doesn't seem to me like an healthy thing to have in the game but I'm sure someone would disagree just the same.

When jumping into a system and finding a hostile Svipul on gate, even warping to an instant-warp bookmark from the gate with around 2.5s align time (considerably less time than that required thanks to the BM) and a having a 33m sig, it won't help. Heck, your pod is probably gonna get popped too.

Top solo killer for the game's most popular ship (hint: ship name starts with S) this week:

https://zkillboard.com/ship/34562/solo/

- All he does is sit in Litiuara and gets free kills, minimal risk to it as well and the hull runs at only 50m or so, meaning not exactly a huge loss even if he somehow does bite the dust. He's far from the only one pulling this little tactic too.

I'm glad people are enjoying getting free kills with their Svipuls but this just detracts from the enjoyment of everyone else as it's a largely unpreventable situation, scouting every system beforehand is NOT a realistic option for most players and even the Starmap will often not suffice to prevent these losses from happening. In a single word, Tedious.

The transport of frigates and other small ships CAN be done either through alts (instead risking suicide ganks) or through courier contracts. That doesn't really change what's going on outside of highsec and increases the time investment required for many pilots just to get some proper pew-pew going.

The main point here is perhaps that this phenomenon underlines yet again what a harsh counter T3D's are to frigates, and in particular the Svipul stands out.

The Svipul is dominating according to zkillboard at the moment with 26 000 kills in the last 7 days. Sabre, an interdictor and also a minmatar anti-frigate platform, comes in second with only 14 000 kills.


Seems to me like CCP popularized frigates and created a healthy frigate meta, only to drop T3D's to hard counter it all together. That's why I feel like the current state of T3D's and especially the Svipul is unhealthy for the game. Most people I've talked to so far have echoed this sentiment as well, so why not address the issue?


Just a thought.

your issue seems to be Svipul

not T3D as a whole.

i've yet to see anyone say jackdaw or hecate are overpowered.


and confessor is the definition of glass cannon, sure it has great dmg. but its very very short range and fragile (Wolf, a t2 frigate, can wreck a confessor pretty fast)



T3D are supposed to counter frigates. even tech 2 frigates. thats why they tech 3.
Tech 1 destroyer = tech 2 frigate
tech 2 destroyer = superior to all tech 1 and tech 2 frigates. but would be equal to a hypothetical tech 3 frigate.
tech 3 destroyer = superior to that hypothetical tech 3 frigate.

in the same way a tech 2 battlecruiser can be equal to tech 3 cruisers (don't believe me? Sleipnir vs Loki, Legion, and Tengu so far. and its been pretty equal to them. though not as adaptable)



idk about svipul, but jackdaw and hecate are both in a nice spot in the meta right now.
confessor is in a fun spot, but very risky (for people who want high risk high reward)




Perfectly said. Maybe you have underestimated the confessor a bit. I don't think I would classify the fit I use as a glass cannon, but 90km optimal range and excellent damage application is nothing to laugh at. I've been very successful using that.
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