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Axhind
Eternity INC.
Goonswarm Federation
#2001 - 2016-04-22 19:26:40 UTC
Mister Ripley wrote:
Axhind wrote:
No, we might hate CCP for wasting money we give them each month for each account on F2P disasters, phone apps that don't do anything useful and so on. Issue here is that we are already paying each month and that means they have a steady income and don't need to nickel and dime us to death as is common in F2P games.

I think you missed the part where we - paying customers - are also obliged to provide content to the sandbox. Big smileBig smile

We pay to have the daily opportunity to generate content! We wouldn't have that if we unsub, so be glad they give us this unique feature.


Why yo make me upvote PH dude??? Have you no shame :D

Yea CCP is really acting like it's a privilege for us to be allowed to pay them. That's quite amazing level of arrogance considering how well their other game projects have been doing not to mention EVE. Although EVE got a decent uptick thanks to IWI guys financing the war.
Indahmawar Fazmarai
#2002 - 2016-04-22 20:39:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Indahmawar Fazmarai
Houm...

It all boils down to this: should login in or not login in have consequences?

With the unlimited skill queue CCP removed some consequences for players who did not login in. That in turn had consequences for CCP. Now they are putting the consequences back on players' side.

The difference is that SP missed with empty queues could not be replaced and yet now anyone who like really really thinks he's laggin behind because the doesn't logs in daily can buy any SP he feels comfortable with.

Didn't log in for a month? Spend 615 million ISK and you'll be back on your feet.

Or maybe not login in should not have any consequences for players and CCP be damned if they don't like how's the PCU doing.

Which certainly they deserve, seeing how they split their attention between PvPrs and the PvE fools paying the show.
marlinspike von Crendraven
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#2003 - 2016-04-22 21:38:13 UTC
i like this idea my only thing is that instead of having a twenty four hour cool down why not have it reset after each daily down time
Indahmawar Fazmarai
#2004 - 2016-04-22 22:29:58 UTC
marlinspike von Crendraven wrote:
i like this idea my only thing is that instead of having a twenty four hour cool down why not have it reset after each daily down time


That can't be done, else people would log in just for 5 minutes after the end of DT and that would defeat the purpose of the dailies.
Ria Nieyli
Nieyli Enterprises
SL33PERS
#2005 - 2016-04-22 22:39:45 UTC
But logging in just for 5 minutes IS the purpose of the dailies. According to CCP, at least.
Khan Wrenth
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#2006 - 2016-04-23 00:46:21 UTC
Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:
Houm...

It all boils down to this: should login in or not login in have consequences?

With the unlimited skill queue CCP removed some consequences for players who did not login in. That in turn had consequences for CCP. Now they are putting the consequences back on players' side.

The difference is that SP missed with empty queues could not be replaced and yet now anyone who like really really thinks he's laggin behind because the doesn't logs in daily can buy any SP he feels comfortable with.

Didn't log in for a month? Spend 615 million ISK and you'll be back on your feet.

Or maybe not login in should not have any consequences for players and CCP be damned if they don't like how's the PCU doing.

Which certainly they deserve, seeing how they split their attention between PvPrs and the PvE fools paying the show.

I know there's already 100 pages to this thread, but this has been thoroughly debunked by Tippia already.

The 24 skill queue did not force daily logins, or even weekly logins for that matter. Other than day-1 characters, people were always training skills that took more than 24 hours to complete anyway. Even rank-1 skills at level 5 take 4-5 days to complete. And if you looked at the timeframe and realized you wouldn't be around to update the skillqueue that day, you could always put in an even longer skill to fill in the time before you got back and resumed your shorter skill.

So, the idea that sklllqueue has anything to do with this is pure bunk.

A lot of people from a lot of backgrounds asked for unlimited queue, but I think what won over CCP was the extra money they could make from it. See, a lot of the people asking for it were people that had to take extended time away from EvE due to their employment. Some traveled a lot for their jobs. Some were military. That meant that they couldn't update their queue for months at a time, but they wanted to keep their character active to level up. With the limited queue, they had to unsub for that time, and that loses CCP money.

Let's discuss overhauling the way we get intel in EvE.
Alexis Askiras
24 7 Noobs
#2007 - 2016-04-23 00:48:30 UTC
I know a lot of people are upset that this seems like it's adding an XP grind to the game, but if you don't like it then just don't do it. CCP isn't forcing anyone to go out and kill an NPC. They are giving an incentive to. Nothing about the rest of the SP system is changing. You will still train your skills just like normal, but if you CHOOSE to you have the option of getting some extra SP by killing an NPC once per day. Nothing to get butt hurt about.
Axhind
Eternity INC.
Goonswarm Federation
#2008 - 2016-04-23 02:07:52 UTC
Alexis Askiras wrote:
I know a lot of people are upset that this seems like it's adding an XP grind to the game, but if you don't like it then just don't do it. CCP isn't forcing anyone to go out and kill an NPC. They are giving an incentive to. Nothing about the rest of the SP system is changing. You will still train your skills just like normal, but if you CHOOSE to you have the option of getting some extra SP by killing an NPC once per day. Nothing to get butt hurt about.


How many times do we have to explain that it's a psychological trick that is used exactly because human brains sees them as "must do".

Not to mention that with devaluation of SP and the move away from training is the only way to get SP it means that we are no longer paying to progress in game but only for access to the servers. So people that are taking a break will feel a lot less motivated to pay as they will be losing out (dailies) and value of SP is devalued. That means when they come back there will be a higher barrier to entry as they have to resub instead of coming back to an improved char that most of us look forward to (yes even those of us who are over 10 years in EVE).

What CCP is doing is a short term boost to numbers before there is an accelerated loss due to burn-out and other terrible game decisions that CCP has been doing as of late (mainly promoting the small gang PvP (more like ganks)). Look for example at the latest trailer. It shows off a big fight despite insistence by CCP that EVE should all be about small gang pvp. Then it ends with "build your dreams" but is missing the "so that intelligent people staging in perfectly safe and functional NPC stations can kill your stuff". So the art department understands much more what attracts players to eve than the actual game developers.
Pryce Caesar
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#2009 - 2016-04-23 04:48:42 UTC
It's no "psychological trick". I do not care how old you are, or how long you have been playing EVE Online; adding the Dailies will by no means detracts from the already existing Training Queue. At the end of the day, the extra SP provided by the Daily Opportunities is, in a word, inconsequential. It's merely a small SP boost; normal skill training still delivers far more SP in a single month than if you were to be online every day just for the Dailies.

As a result, any skills you want trained will be more likely trained by the Training Queue more readily than by the Daily Opportunities. For anyone who is interested in the dailies, my advice is just to save them up. Use them when you want to speed up training for the high-multiplier skills. There's no point in using them piece-meal for any skill that takes under a month to train. At best, you'll only shave off four to five days with the amount of SP you'd get per month.
Indahmawar Fazmarai
#2010 - 2016-04-23 07:04:16 UTC
Khan Wrenth wrote:
Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:
Houm...

It all boils down to this: should login in or not login in have consequences?

With the unlimited skill queue CCP removed some consequences for players who did not login in. That in turn had consequences for CCP. Now they are putting the consequences back on players' side.

The difference is that SP missed with empty queues could not be replaced and yet now anyone who like really really thinks he's laggin behind because the doesn't logs in daily can buy any SP he feels comfortable with.

Didn't log in for a month? Spend 615 million ISK and you'll be back on your feet.

Or maybe not login in should not have any consequences for players and CCP be damned if they don't like how's the PCU doing.

Which certainly they deserve, seeing how they split their attention between PvPrs and the PvE fools paying the show.

I know there's already 100 pages to this thread, but this has been thoroughly debunked by Tippia already.

The 24 skill queue did not force daily logins, or even weekly logins for that matter. Other than day-1 characters, people were always training skills that took more than 24 hours to complete anyway. Even rank-1 skills at level 5 take 4-5 days to complete. And if you looked at the timeframe and realized you wouldn't be around to update the skillqueue that day, you could always put in an even longer skill to fill in the time before you got back and resumed your shorter skill.

So, the idea that sklllqueue has anything to do with this is pure bunk.

A lot of people from a lot of backgrounds asked for unlimited queue, but I think what won over CCP was the extra money they could make from it. See, a lot of the people asking for it were people that had to take extended time away from EvE due to their employment. Some traveled a lot for their jobs. Some were military. That meant that they couldn't update their queue for months at a time, but they wanted to keep their character active to level up. With the limited queue, they had to unsub for that time, and that loses CCP money.


So CCP Rise is a fool, or a liar:

Quote:
Why Dailies?
So first lets talk a little history. EVE had a daily logon incentive for most of it's existence: the 24 hour skill queue limit. Back in Phoebe, we removed those limitations. Now, at the time, we were of two minds internally. We didn't like the experience around being punished for not logging in to update your queue, but also knew that some of those logins might be leading to meaningful gameplay and we shouldn't lightly let go of them. We leaned to the side of a better experience and removed the limitations, hoping that the logins we were generating were fairly empty, rarely leading to more actual activity in the universe. Well, it turns out we were wrong about that. Now, with before and after data we can see that making it into the client is a huge step towards real activity, even if the reason for logging in in the first place seems artificial. So this leads us to where we are now, attempting to find ways to create more logins that also don't feel like such a punishment as the skill queue limitations did. This may not turn out to be the perfect alternative but that's what we're looking for.


Frankly, I'll bet on CCP rather than Tippia with this one.
Ria Nieyli
Nieyli Enterprises
SL33PERS
#2011 - 2016-04-23 07:49:36 UTC
Alexis Askiras wrote:
I know a lot of people are upset that this seems like it's adding an XP grind to the game, but if you don't like it then just don't do it. CCP isn't forcing anyone to go out and kill an NPC. They are giving an incentive to. Nothing about the rest of the SP system is changing. You will still train your skills just like normal, but if you CHOOSE to you have the option of getting some extra SP by killing an NPC once per day. Nothing to get butt hurt about.


Nobody chooses to train slower. If it's so much of a free choice, let's bring back training skills too.

Pryce Caesar wrote:
It's no "psychological trick". I do not care how old you are, or how long you have been playing EVE Online; adding the Dailies will by no means detracts from the already existing Training Queue. At the end of the day, the extra SP provided by the Daily Opportunities is, in a word, inconsequential. It's merely a small SP boost; normal skill training still delivers far more SP in a single month than if you were to be online every day just for the Dailies.

As a result, any skills you want trained will be more likely trained by the Training Queue more readily than by the Daily Opportunities. For anyone who is interested in the dailies, my advice is just to save them up. Use them when you want to speed up training for the high-multiplier skills. There's no point in using them piece-meal for any skill that takes under a month to train. At best, you'll only shave off four to five days with the amount of SP you'd get per month.


It doesn't detract from the queue, it enhances it. If you have a perfect remap and +5 implants, it's a 17% increase in training speed. It will be the new norm. That's why people are staunchly against it. This game was supposed to be downtime friendly. People can't log in every day, and a feature like this punishes them for not doing is, going against a core tenet of the game.
Vabanaz Arjar
Pandemic Horde Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#2012 - 2016-04-23 08:12:14 UTC
I would rather like to have the old skillqueue limitations back, also there wasnt a need to login daily back then since you were able to throw in a long Skill which lasts for weeks.
Instead of throwing in just another poorly designed feauture to artifical increase PCU, CCP should maybe look more inside the real reasons people don't login anymore.

who pulls the strings?
Anarkia Evangel
Red Sky Morning
The Amarr Militia.
#2013 - 2016-04-23 09:08:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Anarkia Evangel
How about something different, you get points you can put towards reducing jump fatigue, reducing time until you can jump clone, reducing time until you can change skill attributes. Even points towards standings with NPC corps and sec status?

I like the idea of giving something to people who play the game every day. I don’t like the idea of using skills points, it’s too key to game progression and hurts people who don’t have time or are able to even login the game every day. The big selling point to Eve, even people I know who don’t play the game say they like that aspect of the game, over other MMORPG.
Ria Nieyli
Nieyli Enterprises
SL33PERS
#2014 - 2016-04-23 09:16:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Ria Nieyli
Anarkia Evangel wrote:
How about something different, you get points you can put towards reducing jump fatigue, reducing time until you can jump clone, reducing time until you can change skill attributes. Even points towards standings with NPC corps and sec status?

I like the idea of giving something to people who play the game every day. I don’t like the idea of using skills points, it’s too key to game progression and hurts people who don’t have time or are able to even login the game every day. The big selling point to Eve, even people I know who don’t play the game say they like that aspect of the game, over other MMORPG.


People playing every day already get something, be it ISK, loot, salvage, ore, killmails, etc. etc. etc. There's zero need for an artificial motivator.
Anarkia Evangel
Red Sky Morning
The Amarr Militia.
#2015 - 2016-04-23 09:36:08 UTC
Ria Nieyli wrote:
Anarkia Evangel wrote:
How about something different, you get points you can put towards reducing jump fatigue, reducing time until you can jump clone, reducing time until you can change skill attributes. Even points towards standings with NPC corps and sec status?

I like the idea of giving something to people who play the game every day. I don’t like the idea of using skills points, it’s too key to game progression and hurts people who don’t have time or are able to even login the game every day. The big selling point to Eve, even people I know who don’t play the game say they like that aspect of the game, over other MMORPG.


People playing every day already get something, be it ISK, loot, salvage, ore, killmails, etc. etc. etc. There's zero need for an artificial motivator.


True, but i'm looking to give CCP other options than giving away skill points, if they are going to do it anyway, lets think out of the box.
Ria Nieyli
Nieyli Enterprises
SL33PERS
#2016 - 2016-04-23 09:39:25 UTC
That's not thinking outside of the box. Thinking outside of the box right now would be scrapping the entire feature.
FT Diomedes
The Graduates
#2017 - 2016-04-23 11:40:56 UTC
Anarkia Evangel wrote:
How about something different, you get points you can put towards reducing jump fatigue, reducing time until you can jump clone, reducing time until you can change skill attributes. Even points towards standings with NPC corps and sec status?

I like the idea of giving something to people who play the game every day. I don’t like the idea of using skills points, it’s too key to game progression and hurts people who don’t have time or are able to even login the game every day. The big selling point to Eve, even people I know who don’t play the game say they like that aspect of the game, over other MMORPG.


Anti-Jump Fatigue Powder would be one thing that would be worth logging in for, but not a mandatory item (like SP). That would make it a good item to offer as a bonus.

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

Shakira Akira
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#2018 - 2016-04-23 12:25:21 UTC
FT Diomedes wrote:
Anarkia Evangel wrote:
How about something different, you get points you can put towards reducing jump fatigue, reducing time until you can jump clone, reducing time until you can change skill attributes. Even points towards standings with NPC corps and sec status?

I like the idea of giving something to people who play the game every day. I don’t like the idea of using skills points, it’s too key to game progression and hurts people who don’t have time or are able to even login the game every day. The big selling point to Eve, even people I know who don’t play the game say they like that aspect of the game, over other MMORPG.


Anti-Jump Fatigue Powder would be one thing that would be worth logging in for, but not a mandatory item (like SP). That would make it a good item to offer as a bonus.



^^^ That. They could just make another BP that would create the "reduce Jump fatigue" pill. You daily bonus gives you material needed to make the pill that way it's not going to be too numerous but people will want to get it IOT sell and or have themselves.
Khan Wrenth
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#2019 - 2016-04-23 17:25:39 UTC
Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:

So CCP Rise is a fool, or a liar:

Frankly, I'll bet on CCP rather than Tippia with this one.

Actually, neither. The world does not exist in a simple black-or-white dichotomy. As an employee of CCP, he was assigned the task of introducing a change. It doesn't need to be more complicated than that and there is certainly no reason to throw any sort of judgement in the direction of Rise.

Let's discuss overhauling the way we get intel in EvE.
Anarkia Evangel
Red Sky Morning
The Amarr Militia.
#2020 - 2016-04-23 17:29:26 UTC
Shakira Akira wrote:
FT Diomedes wrote:
Anarkia Evangel wrote:
How about something different, you get points you can put towards reducing jump fatigue, reducing time until you can jump clone, reducing time until you can change skill attributes. Even points towards standings with NPC corps and sec status?

I like the idea of giving something to people who play the game every day. I don’t like the idea of using skills points, it’s too key to game progression and hurts people who don’t have time or are able to even login the game every day. The big selling point to Eve, even people I know who don’t play the game say they like that aspect of the game, over other MMORPG.


Anti-Jump Fatigue Powder would be one thing that would be worth logging in for, but not a mandatory item (like SP). That would make it a good item to offer as a bonus.



^^^ That. They could just make another BP that would create the "reduce Jump fatigue" pill. You daily bonus gives you material needed to make the pill that way it's not going to be too numerous but people will want to get it IOT sell and or have themselves.


I don't think it should be difficult to access, having to get materials for a pill will put people off. Making it a commodity gives the rich an advantage and removes the need to log in if you can just buy it.