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Proposal: New Ship Class, Heavy Bombers.
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Elyia Suze Nagala
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#1 - 2016-04-19 19:18:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Elyia Suze Nagala
Well we're loosing Fighter Bombers to become Heavy Fighters. We have these wonderful things called Stealth Bombers that cloak and do great damage, but are rather flimsy.

Soo... I'm making a rather crazy proposal. I'm sure it will be subject to some flak, but I'll throw it out there, Heavy Bombers.

It has no real reason to be a priority for development, but I think it would be an interesting concept to introduce. I want constructive feedback, again, I don't believe it actually needs to be developed by CCP. This is just for fun.

The WHY
These craft are intended for precision, high damage output, with reduced damage radius. In short a capital hunter. These should have great difficult with dispatching smaller vessels unless they are bunched up or not using their speed to their advantage.

General Concept
- No covert bonuses, no cloaks, cyno's, etc.
- Able to fit 2 bomb launchers
- Higher resists (T2 level) and more EHP than T1 hull variants
- Slower velocity, moderate inerta (To offset the lack of covert cloaks, better align time, but slower so more vulnerable.)

Tentative Slot Options
- Amarr
3 High, 2 Mid, 5 Low
0 Missile Launchers
1 Turret

- Caldari
3 High, 5 Mid, 2 Low
1 Missile Launchers
0 Turret

- Gallente
3 High, 3 Mid, 4 Low
0 Missile Launchers
1 Turret

Minmatar
3 High, 4 Mid, 3 Low
1 Missile Launchers
1 Turret

Possible Bonuses
Racial Bonus (per-level)
- 7.5% Increase to (shield/armor) hitpoints.
- 4% Increase to (shield/armor) resistsances.

Heavy Bomber Bonus (per-level)
- 7.5% Reduction to Bomb Launcher reactivation delay.
- 5% Bonus to (Racial) Bomb damage

Role Bonus
- 150% Bonus to Bomb damage
- 50% Penalty to Bomb AoER

Please drop your feed back.

Again, again, I'm just interested in testing a new concept. Its attributes, slots, and even overall viability are all tentative.

EDITS:
04/20 - Removed Velocity bonus and Flight Time penalty to Bombs, initially under Role Bonus.
Danika Princip
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#2 - 2016-04-19 19:29:07 UTC
So...one of these ships will alpha any subcap then? Five-ten to RF a small pos in a single bomb run (and strip all it's mods in the process)?
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#3 - 2016-04-19 19:38:31 UTC
Elyia Suze Nagala wrote:


Role Bonuses
- 150% Bonus to Bomb damage
- 200% Bonus to Bomb velocity
- 50% Penalty to Bomb flight time
- 50% Penalty to Bomb AoER



Half the flight time and double velocity mean same range but easier to aim. Also much easyer to survive counter fire if the other side ever try to kill you to disable your bomb.

You want them to be frig sized?
Elyia Suze Nagala
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#4 - 2016-04-19 19:57:14 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Elyia Suze Nagala wrote:


Role Bonuses
- 150% Bonus to Bomb damage
- 200% Bonus to Bomb velocity
- 50% Penalty to Bomb flight time
- 50% Penalty to Bomb AoER



Half the flight time and double velocity mean same range but easier to aim. Also much easyer to survive counter fire if the other side ever try to kill you to disable your bomb.

You want them to be frig sized?


No its not intended for subcapitals. Otherwise I'd want broad AoER (Area of Affect Radius.)
Aim has nothing to due with bomb velocity. The inertia and agility of the ship affects that more I'd assume. Couple that with smaller AoER and you have to be a good pilot to be successful.

Right...
Elyia Suze Nagala
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#5 - 2016-04-19 20:13:17 UTC
Danika Princip wrote:
So...one of these ships will alpha any subcap then? Five-ten to RF a small pos in a single bomb run (and strip all it's mods in the process)?


You Are correct about subcaps. Bombers even now can do that, for subcaps in combat verses this proposal I think the AoER would help restrain this, I hope. Maybe tweaks stats better, what do you think?

Or increase the bomb resists themselves, or make immune smart bombs and maybe even slow them down?

As for POSes, they'll be gone by the gone these would come around. But, yes, small POSes could suffer otherwise.
Celthric Kanerian
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#6 - 2016-04-19 20:23:38 UTC
Rather redundant topic, shut down every time.
Lugh Crow-Slave
#7 - 2016-04-19 22:14:26 UTC
... their bombs would still be able to do about the same total damage in a max flight of these as normal stealth bombers

BLOPS Hauler
The 16.8km Bubble
Elyia Suze Nagala
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#8 - 2016-04-19 23:12:09 UTC
I'm in agreement with the assessment it has exceding high damage potential.

The way I'm trying to offset it is to reduce the Area of Affect of the bombs, give small fast ships a chance to GTFO. The AoAE is roughly 7500m in radius because of the penalty. Most attentive subcap pilots should be able to get out the way.

Would it be better to reduce or remove the bomb velocity bonus in everyone's opinion? I'd happily consider that if the group consensus is that the ship OP in the current state.
Elyia Suze Nagala
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#9 - 2016-04-19 23:15:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Elyia Suze Nagala
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Elyia Suze Nagala wrote:


Role Bonuses
- 150% Bonus to Bomb damage
- 200% Bonus to Bomb velocity
- 50% Penalty to Bomb flight time
- 50% Penalty to Bomb AoER



Half the flight time and double velocity mean same range but easier to aim. Also much easyer to survive counter fire if the other side ever try to kill you to disable your bomb.

You want them to be frig sized?


Frigate size is correct. The assault frigates and interceptors have two versions based off the T1 hulls. I was thinking something similar. Then again that throws it into the covert ops category... I didn't want that. Maybe move SBs to a new Frigate Category? Bombers??!?!

I sorry we can deal with that later.
Anhenka
The New Federation
Sigma Grindset
#10 - 2016-04-19 23:24:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Anhenka
Elyia Suze Nagala wrote:
I'm in agreement with the assessment it has exceding high damage potential.

The way I'm trying to offset it is to reduce the Area of Affect of the bombs, give small fast ships a chance to GTFO. The AoAE is roughly 7500m in radius because of the penalty. Most attentive subcap pilots should be able to get out the way.

Would it be better to reduce or remove the bomb velocity bonus in everyone's opinion? I'd happily consider that if the group consensus is that the ship OP in the current state.


We think it's useless. The limit on bombing waves is the number of similar bombs you can throw at once before the bombs start exploding the ones that have not detonated yet. If you increase individual bomb damage, it only changes how much each bomb can do, but the damage per wave stays the same.

No cloak means positioning on perches to align bombing runs becomes extremely difficult, since if the enemy can see you decloaked and knows where you are coming in from, you are going to get absolutely murdered on the bomb run.

Low AOE means no overlapping bomb waves like a good bomber FC does, in order to strike an area in the center with a ton of overlapping detonations at once from multiple full bomb wings. It also means being far less useful against subcaps, since a 5-10km orbit on FC will mean most of your blast misses entirely.

More HP doesn't mean much. Triple a Stealth bomber in EHP still means you die in a few seconds when the enemy fleet orders free fire on the incoming non cloaking bomber fleet that's being about as sneaky as a neon elephant.

Trash for hunting capitals, trash for hunting subcaps, trash for staying alive. There's no reason a bomber FC would want one of these over conventional wings of bombers.

And please don't try and propose a BC sized heavy bomber next. That particular topic has been beaten to death so hard it deserves a gravestone next to the POS and AFK cloaking threads.
Elyia Suze Nagala
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#11 - 2016-04-19 23:41:42 UTC
Anhenka wrote:
Elyia Suze Nagala wrote:
I'm in agreement with the assessment it has exceding high damage potential.

The way I'm trying to offset it is to reduce the Area of Affect of the bombs, give small fast ships a chance to GTFO. The AoAE is roughly 7500m in radius because of the penalty. Most attentive subcap pilots should be able to get out the way.

Would it be better to reduce or remove the bomb velocity bonus in everyone's opinion? I'd happily consider that if the group consensus is that the ship OP in the current state.


We think it's useless. The limit on bombing waves is the number of similar bombs you can throw at once before the bombs start exploding the ones that have not detonated yet. If you increase individual bomb damage, it only changes how much each bomb can do, but the damage per wave stays the same.

No cloak means positioning on perches to align bombing runs becomes extremely difficult, since if the enemy can see you decloaked and knows where you are coming in from, you are going to get absolutely murdered on the bomb run.

Low AOE means no overlapping bomb waves like a good bomber FC does, in order to strike an area in the center with a ton of overlapping detonations at once from multiple full bomb wings. It also means being far less useful against subcaps, since a 5-10km orbit on FC will mean most of your blast misses entirely.

More HP doesn't mean much. Triple a Stealth bomber in EHP still means you die in a few seconds when the enemy fleet orders free fire on the incoming non cloaking bomber fleet that's being about as sneaky as a neon elephant.

Trash for hunting capitals, trash for hunting subcaps, trash for staying alive. There's no reason a bomber FC would want one of these over conventional wings of bombers.

And please don't try and propose a BC sized heavy bomber next. That particular topic has been beaten to death so hard it deserves a gravestone next to the POS and AFK cloaking threads.


Lol I wouldn't even consider a BC sized one. That's just dumb.
Elyia Suze Nagala
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#12 - 2016-04-19 23:44:24 UTC
While that did basically state that this ship isn't effective, I appreciate your objective opinion and analysis.
Lugh Crow-Slave
#13 - 2016-04-20 00:44:37 UTC
the idea of smaller AOE with higher damage is a good idea and fozzie seems to like it as well (even if hedecided to test the reception of such a thing with a very niche varient) but do it with new bomb types not a new bomber

BLOPS Hauler
The 16.8km Bubble
Elyia Suze Nagala
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#14 - 2016-04-20 00:49:49 UTC
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
the idea of smaller AOE with higher damage is a good idea and fozzie seems to like it as well (even if hedecided to test the reception of such a thing with a very niche varient) but do it with new bomb types not a new bomber


Kinda my thoughts too. I know it's probably a very contested idea and with good reason.
Lugh Crow-Slave
#15 - 2016-04-20 01:00:44 UTC
Elyia Suze Nagala wrote:
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
the idea of smaller AOE with higher damage is a good idea and fozzie seems to like it as well (even if hedecided to test the reception of such a thing with a very niche varient) but do it with new bomb types not a new bomber


Kinda my thoughts too. I know it's probably a very contested idea and with good reason.


not really most ppl liked the idea but you are not going to find mant who like the idea of heavy bombers

BLOPS Hauler
The 16.8km Bubble
PAPULA
The Chodak
Void Alliance
#16 - 2016-04-20 03:27:21 UTC  |  Edited by: PAPULA
How about giving us bonuses to cruise missiles and torpedoes on bombers as before, not just torpedoes..

I hope we can get bonus to torpedoes and cruise missiles some day, like in old days where you could fit cruise missiles.
So player can have long range fit with cruise missiles, and short range fit with torpedoes.


Stats of "old bombers" can be found here:
http://lib-corp.wikidot.com/covertops


Old bombers:
Name: Nemesis
Hull: Tristan Class
Role: Stealth Bomber

Specifically engineered to fire cruise missiles, stealth bombers represent the next generation in covert ops craft. Advanced techniques in spatial distortion technology enable them to potentially fly faster when cloaked than when uncloaked - a fact which, coupled with their considerable firepower, makes them extremely dangerous in the hands of an accomplished pilot.

In addition, stealth bombers' extremely advanced missile navigation subroutines are able to triangulate a cruise missile's trajectory in advance, resulting in a decreased factor of signature radius and making the missile more effective against smaller targets.

Developer: Duvolle Laboratories

Duvolle Labs manufactures sturdy ships with a good mix of offensive and defensive capabilities. Being the foremost manufacturer of particle blasters, its ships tend to favor turrets and thus have somewhat higher power output than normal.

Gallente Frigate Skill Bonus: 5% bonus to Cruise Missile damage and -16.66% reduction in Explosion Radius of Cruise Missiles per level

Covert Ops Skill Bonus: 5% bonus to Cruise Missile and bomb thermal damage and multiplies the cloaked velocity by 125% per level

Role Bonus: -99% reduction in Cruise Launcher powergrid needs, -99% reduction in Bomb Launcher CPU use and -100% targeting delay after decloaking

Note: can fit covert cynosural field generators
Elyia Suze Nagala
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#17 - 2016-04-20 12:24:16 UTC
PAPULA wrote:
How about giving us bonuses to cruise missiles and torpedoes on bombers as before, not just torpedoes..

I hope we can get bonus to torpedoes and cruise missiles some day, like in old days where you could fit cruise missiles.
So player can have long range fit with cruise missiles, and short range fit with torpedoes.


Stats of "old bombers" can be found here:
http://lib-corp.wikidot.com/covertops


Old bombers:
Name: Nemesis
Hull: Tristan Class
Role: Stealth Bomber

Specifically engineered to fire cruise missiles, stealth bombers represent the next generation in covert ops craft. Advanced techniques in spatial distortion technology enable them to potentially fly faster when cloaked than when uncloaked - a fact which, coupled with their considerable firepower, makes them extremely dangerous in the hands of an accomplished pilot.

In addition, stealth bombers' extremely advanced missile navigation subroutines are able to triangulate a cruise missile's trajectory in advance, resulting in a decreased factor of signature radius and making the missile more effective against smaller targets.

Developer: Duvolle Laboratories

Duvolle Labs manufactures sturdy ships with a good mix of offensive and defensive capabilities. Being the foremost manufacturer of particle blasters, its ships tend to favor turrets and thus have somewhat higher power output than normal.

Gallente Frigate Skill Bonus: 5% bonus to Cruise Missile damage and -16.66% reduction in Explosion Radius of Cruise Missiles per level

Covert Ops Skill Bonus: 5% bonus to Cruise Missile and bomb thermal damage and multiplies the cloaked velocity by 125% per level

Role Bonus: -99% reduction in Cruise Launcher powergrid needs, -99% reduction in Bomb Launcher CPU use and -100% targeting delay after decloaking

Note: can fit covert cynosural field generators


If a SB had cruise missiles coupled with the new missile guidance modules, the range could get astronomical on those missiles. I think torps are fine really.
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#18 - 2016-04-20 13:08:36 UTC
Elyia Suze Nagala wrote:
I'm in agreement with the assessment it has exceding high damage potential.

The way I'm trying to offset it is to reduce the Area of Affect of the bombs, give small fast ships a chance to GTFO. The AoAE is roughly 7500m in radius because of the penalty. Most attentive subcap pilots should be able to get out the way.

Would it be better to reduce or remove the bomb velocity bonus in everyone's opinion? I'd happily consider that if the group consensus is that the ship OP in the current state.


You gave it half the flight time so with half the AoE, the very exact amount of time is given to GTFO except at the end of the day, the 1 second you need to react to the bomb is not 1/6 of your total response time available instead of 1/12.

If you remove the velocity bonus, it means the bomb has less total range since it always fly to it's max range then explode. Half flight time at regular speed would give them half the normal bomber's range so they would reach to 15km and go boom.

Half flight time also mean you can throw more consecutive waves in a shorter time span since you need less wait time to make sure you don't kill wave 2 bombs with wave 1 explosions.

The 6 second flight time also make idea like a battleship evading a bomb run a rather close to impossible task. You don't have enough time to fire a MJD. A command destroyer would jump the bombs even if it trigger before the bombs. Slowboating out is borderline impossible and even with a MWD active, you need to reach an average speed over 1250 m/s over 6 seconds. The only upside for the receiving end of this proposed new stick is they can see the bomber coming if they are not too busy with handling the fight.
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#19 - 2016-04-20 13:23:27 UTC
PAPULA wrote:


Gallente Frigate Skill Bonus: 5% bonus to Cruise Missile damage and -16.66% reduction in Explosion Radius of Cruise Missiles per level

Covert Ops Skill Bonus: 5% bonus to Cruise Missile and bomb thermal damage and multiplies the cloaked velocity by 125% per level

Role Bonus: -99% reduction in Cruise Launcher powergrid needs, -99% reduction in Bomb Launcher CPU use and -100% targeting delay after decloaking

Note: can fit covert cynosural field generators


With your bonus applied :

[Purifier, wtf]

Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II

Missile Guidance Computer II, Missile Precision Script
Missile Guidance Computer II, Missile Precision Script
[Empty Med slot]

'Arbalest' Cruise Launcher I, Caldari Navy Mjolnir Cruise Missile
'Arbalest' Cruise Launcher I, Caldari Navy Mjolnir Cruise Missile
'Arbalest' Cruise Launcher I, Caldari Navy Mjolnir Cruise Missile
[Empty High slot]
[Empty High slot]

Small Warhead Calefaction Catalyst II
[Empty Rig slot]

This would get an explosion velocity of 138m/s, explosion radius of 29.4882 (under the value of light missile here) and an alpha strike of 3020 and a range of about 140+ KM.

It's less DPS than current torpedo bomber but still kinda stupid imo.
Elyia Suze Nagala
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#20 - 2016-04-20 14:34:26 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Elyia Suze Nagala wrote:
I'm in agreement with the assessment it has exceding high damage potential.

The way I'm trying to offset it is to reduce the Area of Affect of the bombs, give small fast ships a chance to GTFO. The AoAE is roughly 7500m in radius because of the penalty. Most attentive subcap pilots should be able to get out the way.

Would it be better to reduce or remove the bomb velocity bonus in everyone's opinion? I'd happily consider that if the group consensus is that the ship OP in the current state.


You gave it half the flight time so with half the AoE, the very exact amount of time is given to GTFO except at the end of the day, the 1 second you need to react to the bomb is not 1/6 of your total response time available instead of 1/12.

If you remove the velocity bonus, it means the bomb has less total range since it always fly to it's max range then explode. Half flight time at regular speed would give them half the normal bomber's range so they would reach to 15km and go boom.

Half flight time also mean you can throw more consecutive waves in a shorter time span since you need less wait time to make sure you don't kill wave 2 bombs with wave 1 explosions.

The 6 second flight time also make idea like a battleship evading a bomb run a rather close to impossible task. You don't have enough time to fire a MJD. A command destroyer would jump the bombs even if it trigger before the bombs. Slowboating out is borderline impossible and even with a MWD active, you need to reach an average speed over 1250 m/s over 6 seconds. The only upside for the receiving end of this proposed new stick is they can see the bomber coming if they are not too busy with handling the fight.


Noted, I'm removing that bonus shortly. At work right now... 😦
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