EVE New Citizens Q&A

And you are free to do just this. But bear in mind; very few, if any, governments have ever came into being purely on ideals alone. There is almost always a great deal of bloodshed involved (because you are forcing your will upon others).

If you want a real-world parallel to what the game is: EVE is a dystopia much like the Wild West was... except we have a techno-libertarian economic twist here too.


This subject does come up from time to time.

Part of the issue is that the entire economy of EVE is interconnected.

People who perform industry, mining, logistics, and/or trading in a "total safety zone" would have an area that can affect the grander economy of EVE (and thus, other people) without fear of "being interfered with." And people in said "safe zone" would never leave it because... well... WHY would you voluntarily put yourself at risk of loss (of any sort) when you can earn a reliable (if boring) income in total safety?
Larger, more powerful, and better funded player organizations will take advantage of this too; creating industries of war that can't be interrupted by any of their enemies.

There is also the principle of the matter to consider:
"It's a sandbox"

But then, some bright spark in the back pipes up, EVE is a sandbox, so I should be able to do whatever I want. EVE is indeed a sandbox, however it is a Multiplayer Sandbox. The definition of a sandbox is not "I can do whatever I want", it is that rather than providing a specific experience, the game provides an environment and tools with which to craft your own experience. For single-player games, these definitions are functionally the same. The problem with a multiplayer sandbox is that not only can you do whatever you want, so can everyone else. You want to mine in highsec in complete peace? The game lets you. It's the other players that are the problem.

The hypocrisy of demanding the freedom to do what you like, while simultaneously demanding or celebrating the curtailment of other people's playstyles should be self-evident, but apparently it's not.


tldr; the game stops being a "sandbox" when you create hard mechanics to prevent people from playing the way they want to play.

A "total safety zone" prevents me from attacking people even though I am willing to accept the cost of such an attack. Ergo, a "total safe zone" is very much an "anti-sandbox" idea.


To each their own. And I do very much hope you succeed in what you wish to do.

The point everyone is trying to make here is this; don't expect others to follow your code of conduct or have your sense of "right" and "wrong." Everything is relative, even morality. And sometimes that morality shifts based on the context of the situation.

I'll use myself as an example.
I sometimes travel to High-Sec newbie systems on an alt character of mine and do some Q&A sessions with the newbies there. I train them, I help them, I even give some freebies here and there.
I try not to blow up newbies that want to test themselves against me (notwithstanding the "official rules" that say I am not supposed to do this)... though mistakes to get made and compensation is given right afterwards.

However... if I am in Low-Sec and an aimless newbie is there in his/her newb ship... all bets are off. They are a valid target and no matter how weak a target is, I will still take the shot.
Part of this is paranoia on my part (because veterans will use newbie alts to scout ahead or bring massive doom and destruction from on high)
Another part is because I like having kill marks on my ships. What can I say? Someone has to die to make my ships look cooler.
And, on the off-chance that I killed an actual newbie... that newbie needs to learn that EVE is not going to go easy on them. Especially not in an area of the game that is, essentially, "the ghetto" / "dark forest."

I thought you were Dutch!

So much has now been explained.

No wonder you have a grin like a dead hare.

Actually, such a system does exist. Its called Starter systems, those systems you end up in at the very beginning of the game, and it is against the rules and bannable if you try and scam, trick or gank new players inside those systems.

But the whole point of every battle is that you try to get the upper hand, and fight an opponent when they are at their weakest. You fit your ship to counter your opponents, so that you are stronger and they are weaker. Everyone would consider you a bad tactician and terrible, terrible commander if you didnt. The real world reflects this too. Wouldnt you agree?

Never said I would not give credit now did I, I simply stated I will not congratulate them on a good fight when there was no fight to be had. Yes, yes I know what Merriam Webster says, however based on the way the word "fight" is used in today's English speaking world that definition is out of touch even if it is technically correct.

Taking a side trip here this situation with the definition of fight highlights one of the biggest problems with English language in it's current form there are to many odd definitions, definitions that were added because they fit with local or regional slang two examples of this are.
From my younger days we have "bad" which now can mean that something is either really terrible, or that it is really good.
And from the more modern world we have "down" which can mean down as in "he was knocked down", or it can mean that you are OK with something as in "I am down with going to the game". Oh well the days of old when the English language was more precise and easier to communicate in are lost to history and it is not a good thing.

Moving on to another aspect of this, given the average age of an EvE player as published by CCP I am old enough to be your grandfather, in my generation we were trained not to expect something for nothing. And yet here you have clearly demonstrated that you EXPECT to be congratulated for a good fight when A. I did not want to be in the fight to start with, and B. there was no fight and I never had a chance to defend myself. And you call me a butthurt sore loser, well I guess I should expect that but what I see is a person with an entitlement attitude, someone that thinks they are entitled to and deserve a congratulatory pat on the back simply because they blew up a pixel space ship that had no ability to defend itself once the attack started.

So we get back to where I started this several posts ago. I will not congratulate a ganker for a good fight because there never was a fight.

If they have been quick, efficient in the deed and they have been respectful of me as a person based on what they have posted in various chat windows I will give them credit for the planning and the work they did to execute the gank. If giving them credit for what they actually did instead of giving them credit for something that did not happen makes me a butthurt sore loser I am down with that, or to be more precise I can live with that.

Ladies, ye are both pretty, now take it outside where the bouncers aint going to interupt.

My, this is getting interesting.

I don't think the "Wild West" as you describe ever existed outside Hollywood. It lasted for approximately 10 years. There were laws that were enforced, more so as time went on. In many towns, guns had to be checked at the sheriff's office before entering. Most people just wanted to farm, ranch, and so on without being attacked or robbed. They fairly quickly organized things so that happened. The total number of deaths in pistol duels was I think around six.

Not that that has much to do with your point, of course.



Hmmmm.

Does suicide ganking interfere with "safe" mining that much now? If not, then we already have what you describe.



Well argued, but I think you are defining "sandbox" too narrowly. Total freedom as you describe is unattainable, because, among other reasons, people's freedoms clash. In this instance, your freedom to attack people means that their freedom not to be attacked is limited. I would define "sandbox" as a game where anyone can chose to do anything within the physical environment/rules of the game without following preset sequences of actions. So, if there was a "total safety" area, you would be free to go there or not. If you choose to go there you would be subject to the local limitations, just as you would be in any other area.



Thank you.



Reply to Part 1: I don't. That way leads only to frustration. :-) Relative morality is arguable though, and many books have been written on the subject. Let's not go there. I want to get back to the game. :-)

Reply to Part 2:That all sounds very nice. I don't think you are typical of players that are being complained about though.

(Above necessitated by quote limitation.)

From "The Leader of the Pack" - "He's good bad but he's not evil". :-)



From another grandfather, I fear we are a dying breed. "Different than"? Yuk!!

That's interesting. Excuse me if I ask a couple of questions? I'm still very new to the game, and still looking for a role for myself that is both fun and within my comfort zone. Lots of time to find it of course, this is a huge universe I've joined.

I do like combat. Mining and similar things I find boring (work!) once I get past the learning stage. ISK is too easily obtained via purchasing PLEX externally for me to want to grind it. I don't want to be the schoolyard bully, BUT I would enjoy punishing the bullies. As I'm sure nothing I can think of will not already have been tried, I'll present these half formed ideas for comment.

A kind of "Justice League", fighting for the little guy. (Capes mandatory).

Something like a Pinkerton Agency, to provide protection to peaceful miners or whatever. (But nicer than the real Pinkertons were).

The Lone Ranger, riding in, punishing and riding off without waiting to be thanked. (Native American companion optional).

At the moment thers something of an anti-ganking movement being put togeather that seems somewhat good natured ,
poke around in the Crime & Punisment subforum and you should see a guy called ozzie udan , hes got a couple of threads in there and seems to be the driving force and is the friendly sort, i would poke him about it if this intrests you.

Eve Uni recently (and hilariously) smacked the ever living Shite out of P I R A T (russian mercs) and took all their pokos ,
then spent a whole day in pirats home system (amarr) giving the pokos to anyone that wanted one.
I dont know if that sudden outburst of badassmotherfucker has lasted but they are one of the long standing altruists of the game.

You have options , and always the option to create one if none are presant or apropriate for your wants.

I do advuse though that you just get your teeth stuck in and find some people to fly with and learn pvp first, then once you kniw how to defend yourself think about doing some "good" with that skill.