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[Citadels] Carriers

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Lugh Crow-Slave
#401 - 2016-04-16 09:58:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Lugh Crow-Slave
E-war fighters


Cenobite

look good a bit stronger than a heavy neut and it seems FSU help them to be useful

if FSU is not suposed to work then cycle time on both needs to drop a little
Dromi

make the t1 20 per fighter putting them at 60% with a max flight and t2 at 23.33-25% so either just under 70 or at 75 with a full flight

scarab

also seem to be effected by FSU so if cycle time is supposed to be their selling point make them each 4 but have the T2 at 15 second cycle

again if FSU is not suposed to affect them then T1 needs to be 4 points and t2 needs to be 5.2
Siren

these are hardly ever going to be used against a sub cap if your fighters can catch what your trying to point so can your fleets dedicated tackle

so instead up the WDS 2 for the T1 3 for the t2 this puts them a little better than the heavy scrams (they would still never be used on anything other than a super as these would only be needed to tackle large ships and carriers are not built to survive that)



these will not make the fighters worth losing 1/3 of your DPS but it may at least make people think about giving up some hanger space for them.

BLOPS Hauler
The 16.8km Bubble
Lugh Crow-Slave
#402 - 2016-04-16 10:10:58 UTC
Another idea make a Support fighter unit to go along with the SFU

this would let us build a support based carrier

however for this to work carriers would need 2 support fighter tubes

BLOPS Hauler
The 16.8km Bubble
Sgt Ocker
What Corp is it
#403 - 2016-04-16 22:55:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Sgt Ocker
Marranar Amatin wrote:
you guys are too pessimistic.
Carrier were super broken a few weeks ago, but they really got better.

I tested ratting few fays ago and it was fine. Damage was lower than before, but application better, that evened out.
Fighters targeted by rats was not a big problem since they are fast, have good regeneration, got a little more hp, and usually are not targeted anyways (only did one haven though; if you actually tested it too and got worse results please report, but only recent tests).

In pvp they are great for killing smaller stuff. You have lower damage, but better burst and application. Many small ships can be simply alphaed with a rocket salvo. Even a little bigger ones can be quickly killed.

You just have to get used to the fact that carriers are crap against big and tanky targets now. Because then neither the burst nor the application are useful.

My main problem with carrier is still that supers are so much better at everything, taking the role of carriers away.

Sorry but they aren't good at killing small stuff, 3 flights of T2 fighters couldn't kill a Cerberus, or anything else I threw them at. Sure drone skills applied to fighters make a difference, a lone cerb can no longer kill a flight of fighters, in fact it couldn't even kill 1 of a squad before needing to warp out in armor (after being attacked by 3 flights of fighters for 2.5 minutes, using everything the fighters could dish out). Surprising how few times the new fighters hit an MWDing HAC for anything close to reasonable damage, you'd be better off bringing a Snake and using heavies or a Gecko. 1 Gecko (with heavy rapid support) put the cerb into armor far quicker than 3 flights of T2 Light Fighters (Firbolgs, none of the others did enough damage at all) did and is just as immune (comparatively) to the Cerbs DPS from rapid lights. Cerbs superior range was all that saved it from the Rattlesnake.

So now not only is fighter damage so anemic a single carrier is incapable of killing a lone HAC (unless it just sits still waiting for the fighters), in a fleet situation carriers are going to be pretty useless - Requiring at least 2 carriers attacking each cruiser on the field, that's if they are stupid enough not to bring logi. A fleet with half decent logi will be nice and immune to carrier DPS - Unless you turn back to the ever trusted N+1, turning all of this into a farce.

As for ratting - Ok if your prepared to take the risk and spend the time (Ishtar is faster and requires far less micro management) - Go for it.
Neither Haven or Sanctum are a threat to a carrier as in chance to kill it, anoms will take you around 2 to 3 times longer to run than currently and if you get caught by a roaming subcap fleet, be sure you have a defense fleet on standby. Preferably in the same system or your just going to die as you would today but with less chance of defending yourself long enough for friends to arrive and save your stupid ass.
Rats attacking fighters - Twice while doing havens the rats attacked fighters, this can be avoided by recalling them at the end of each wave and waiting until your carrier has full aggro before relaunching them. Time consuming but better than throwing isk away letting rats kill off half a squad.


Carriers need a defined role - Not just gimmick light fighters that require more squads than a single carrier can field to be effective (against a T2 cruiser).
N+1 will still be the meta for fights, except now they will be static fights due to lack of effective mobile logistics. Any thoughts of dynamic, tactical, strategic or emergent game play have been denied by design.

Devs have done a half decent job of ensuring - Nothing changes in capital warfare, except the usefulness of carriers.

Good intentions with no imagination = CCP design ethos.

My opinions are mine.

  If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - - Just don't bother Hating - I don't care

It really is getting harder and harder to justify $23 a month for each sub.
Lugh Crow-Slave
#404 - 2016-04-16 23:08:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Lugh Crow-Slave
Sgt Ocker wrote:
[quote=Marranar Amatin]


Carriers need a defined role - Not just gimmick light fighters that require more squads than a single carrier can field to be effective (against a T2 cruiser).
N+1 will still be the meta for fights, except now they will be static fights due to lack of effective mobile logistics. Any thoughts of dynamic, tactical, strategic or emergent game play have been denied by design.

Devs have done a half decent job of ensuring - Nothing changes in capital warfare, except the usefulness of carriers.

Good intentions with no imagination = CCP design ethos.



They have one they are just not good at that role


This is what I would do.
Take the rapid missile launcher idea of high burst and long reload

Basically the 48 second reload would be fine if the missile Salvo did enough damage to to cause a buffer battleships alarms to start wailing. Have the turret abulity stay where it is. It can chase off frigs and destroyers but do little more than harass anything bigger. Then Make sure they have enough speed to keep up with small ships as well.

So give carriers a damage bonus to the Salvo ideally as a role bonus. This will also give them a clear role over supers and dreads. They are better and sub cap killing than supers (just like now on tq) and they ate a heavy alpha based system where dreads are constant dps


EDIT

you know what if they ate given the alpha then they don't even need the speed that can be compensated for with tackle in you're support fleet

BLOPS Hauler
The 16.8km Bubble
Sgt Ocker
What Corp is it
#405 - 2016-04-17 00:23:42 UTC
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
Sgt Ocker wrote:
[quote=Marranar Amatin]


Carriers need a defined role - Not just gimmick light fighters that require more squads than a single carrier can field to be effective (against a T2 cruiser).
N+1 will still be the meta for fights, except now they will be static fights due to lack of effective mobile logistics. Any thoughts of dynamic, tactical, strategic or emergent game play have been denied by design.

Devs have done a half decent job of ensuring - Nothing changes in capital warfare, except the usefulness of carriers.

Good intentions with no imagination = CCP design ethos.



They have one they are just not good at that role


This is what I would do.
Take the rapid missile launcher idea of high burst and long reload

Basically the 48 second reload would be fine if the missile Salvo did enough damage to to cause a buffer battleships alarms to start wailing. Have the turret abulity stay where it is. It can chase off frigs and destroyers but do little more than harass anything bigger. Then Make sure they have enough speed to keep up with small ships as well.

So give carriers a damage bonus to the Salvo ideally as a role bonus. This will also give them a clear role over supers and dreads. They are better and sub cap killing than supers (just like now on tq) and they ate a heavy alpha based system where dreads are constant dps


EDIT

you know what if they are given the alpha then they don't even need the speed that can be compensated for with tackle in you're support fleet
And even better, if you have a decent support fleet you can leave carriers at home and just use Dreads.

My opinions are mine.

  If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - - Just don't bother Hating - I don't care

It really is getting harder and harder to justify $23 a month for each sub.
Marranar Amatin
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#406 - 2016-04-17 09:43:38 UTC
Sgt Ocker wrote:
Sorry but they aren't good at killing small stuff, 3 flights of T2 fighters couldn't kill a Cerberus, or anything else I threw them at.


Could you give me the fitting of the ships that you tried please? I want to test that myself. So far I had very good results against smaller ships, but maybe they were fitted wrong...


Sgt Ocker wrote:
As for ratting - Ok if your prepared to take the risk and spend the time (Ishtar is faster and requires far less micro management) - Go for it.
Neither Haven or Sanctum are a threat to a carrier as in chance to kill it, anoms will take you around 2 to 3 times longer to run than currently



Then you are doing it wrong, I am actually a little faster than before. An Ishtar can never compete with that, not even close. Its still ~10 minutes for a haven.
Lugh Crow-Slave
#407 - 2016-04-17 11:03:25 UTC
Marranar Amatin wrote:
Sgt Ocker wrote:
Sorry but they aren't good at killing small stuff, 3 flights of T2 fighters couldn't kill a Cerberus, or anything else I threw them at.


Could you give me the fitting of the ships that you tried please? I want to test that myself. So far I had very good results against smaller ships, but maybe they were fitted wrong...



I would assume it was a standard MWD fit he would get in a couple of hits b4 his fighter ran out of their MWD and became unable to keep you with the cerb.


and once again even though carriers have gotten a bit better the still don't come close to the effectiveness or reliability of HAW and have actualy lost a lot of dps now that they have to spend the better part of a minute reloading. CCP is getting closer to a worth while class but they are not there yet

BLOPS Hauler
The 16.8km Bubble
Sgt Ocker
What Corp is it
#408 - 2016-04-17 11:54:07 UTC
Marranar Amatin wrote:
Sgt Ocker wrote:
Sorry but they aren't good at killing small stuff, 3 flights of T2 fighters couldn't kill a Cerberus, or anything else I threw them at.


Could you give me the fitting of the ships that you tried please? I want to test that myself. So far I had very good results against smaller ships, but maybe they were fitted wrong...


Sgt Ocker wrote:
As for ratting - Ok if your prepared to take the risk and spend the time (Ishtar is faster and requires far less micro management) - Go for it.
Neither Haven or Sanctum are a threat to a carrier as in chance to kill it, anoms will take you around 2 to 3 times longer to run than currently



Then you are doing it wrong, I am actually a little faster than before. An Ishtar can never compete with that, not even close. Its still ~10 minutes for a haven.

I used common every day fits.
Mach, Cerb, Raptor, Tengu
nothing special, the fits used were the same fits I use on TQ for PVP, with the exception of the Tengu which is PVE fit (to run shipyards). Raptor was more for fun, orbiting a squad of fighters at 10K doing 8K m/s, just watching the fighters trying to get in range made it interesting. I also used a Rattlesnake but it was a little hard to judge - Half the squad of fighters was dead before getting in range.

What space are you doing these havens in?
Guristas space is pretty easy (nothing new there), sansha not so much, bloods were a pain.
What fitting and carrier are you using? I used a Thany with reasonable active tank, as I would if there was a risk of getting hotdropped and i needed to survive long enough for help to arrive.

My opinions are mine.

  If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - - Just don't bother Hating - I don't care

It really is getting harder and harder to justify $23 a month for each sub.
Lugh Crow-Slave
#409 - 2016-04-17 12:00:38 UTC
Sgt Ocker wrote:
Marranar Amatin wrote:
Sgt Ocker wrote:
Sorry but they aren't good at killing small stuff, 3 flights of T2 fighters couldn't kill a Cerberus, or anything else I threw them at.


Could you give me the fitting of the ships that you tried please? I want to test that myself. So far I had very good results against smaller ships, but maybe they were fitted wrong...


Sgt Ocker wrote:
As for ratting - Ok if your prepared to take the risk and spend the time (Ishtar is faster and requires far less micro management) - Go for it.
Neither Haven or Sanctum are a threat to a carrier as in chance to kill it, anoms will take you around 2 to 3 times longer to run than currently



Then you are doing it wrong, I am actually a little faster than before. An Ishtar can never compete with that, not even close. Its still ~10 minutes for a haven.

I used common every day fits.
Mach, Cerb, Raptor, Tengu
nothing special, the fits used were the same fits I use on TQ for PVP, with the exception of the Tengu which is PVE fit (to run shipyards). Raptor was more for fun, orbiting a squad of fighters at 10K doing 8K m/s, just watching the fighters trying to get in range made it interesting. I also used a Rattlesnake but it was a little hard to judge - Half the squad of fighters was dead before getting in range.

What space are you doing these havens in?
Guristas space is pretty easy (nothing new there), sansha not so much, bloods were a pain.
What fitting and carrier are you using? I used a Thany with reasonable active tank, as I would if there was a risk of getting hotdropped and i needed to survive long enough for help to arrive.


What is your active fit I have had to buffer all of mine because the reps all seem to low and slow outside of siege

BLOPS Hauler
The 16.8km Bubble
Marranar Amatin
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#410 - 2016-04-17 13:11:08 UTC
Sgt Ocker wrote:
I used common every day fits.
Mach, Cerb, Raptor, Tengu
nothing special, the fits used were the same fits I use on TQ for PVP, with the exception of the Tengu which is PVE fit (to run shipyards). Raptor was more for fun, orbiting a squad of fighters at 10K doing 8K m/s, just watching the fighters trying to get in range made it interesting. I also used a Rattlesnake but it was a little hard to judge - Half the squad of fighters was dead before getting in range.


I will try to do a few tests with compareable ships. Or maybe I can just meet you on sisi and try to shoot the same ones?

Sgt Ocker wrote:
What space are you doing these havens in?
Guristas space is pretty easy (nothing new there), sansha not so much, bloods were a pain.
What fitting and carrier are you using? I used a Thany with reasonable active tank, as I would if there was a risk of getting hotdropped and i needed to survive long enough for help to arrive.



I tried serpentis and blood raider.
Serpentis obviously was a little better, because you can use dragonfly there, which are just much better than the crappy templar that you have to use in blood raider space. (seriously, fix the fighter balance already, you should not be able to sort figters from best to worst that easy)

Carrier was a Thanny with 2 low slots and the rig slots for tank, and the rest for damage: 4x DDA, 3x tracking link, 2x drone nav comp, 4x FSU, 1x networked sensor array.

Obviously you are not going to tank a hotrop for a serious time, but my pve thanny on tranq cant do that either. No pve fit is meant to tank a hotdrop for a long time, that risk is the price to pay for good ticks, and I think thats fair. High risk, high reward.
Lugh Crow-Slave
#411 - 2016-04-17 13:18:20 UTC
Marranar Amatin wrote:
Sgt Ocker wrote:
I used common every day fits.
Mach, Cerb, Raptor, Tengu
nothing special, the fits used were the same fits I use on TQ for PVP, with the exception of the Tengu which is PVE fit (to run shipyards). Raptor was more for fun, orbiting a squad of fighters at 10K doing 8K m/s, just watching the fighters trying to get in range made it interesting. I also used a Rattlesnake but it was a little hard to judge - Half the squad of fighters was dead before getting in range.


I will try to do a few tests with compareable ships. Or maybe I can just meet you on sisi and try to shoot the same ones?

Sgt Ocker wrote:
What space are you doing these havens in?
Guristas space is pretty easy (nothing new there), sansha not so much, bloods were a pain.
What fitting and carrier are you using? I used a Thany with reasonable active tank, as I would if there was a risk of getting hotdropped and i needed to survive long enough for help to arrive.



I tried serpentis and blood raider.
Serpentis obviously was a little better, because you can use dragonfly there, which are just much better than the crappy templar that you have to use in blood raider space. (seriously, fix the fighter balance already, you should not be able to sort figters from best to worst that easy)

Carrier was a Thanny with 2 low slots and the rig slots for tank, and the rest for damage: 4x DDA, 3x tracking link, 2x drone nav comp, 4x FSU, 1x networked sensor array.

Obviously you are not going to tank a hotrop for a serious time, but my pve thanny on tranq cant do that either. No pve fit is meant to tank a hotdrop for a long time, that risk is the price to pay for good ticks, and I think thats fair. High risk, high reward.



To be honest I don't think the done balance is that bad when it comes to pvp at least not sure about pve. The amarr and minmatar are hands down the best and the gallente have there uses the only one that falls short is the dragon fly because it's just a lower dps fitblog give it it's racial range and it will also have a place.

BLOPS Hauler
The 16.8km Bubble
Miss 'Assassination' Cayman
CK-0FF
Intergalactic Space Hobos
#412 - 2016-04-17 14:11:09 UTC
Sgt Ocker wrote:
I also used a Rattlesnake but it was a little hard to judge - Half the squad of fighters was dead before getting in range.

How did that happen? I tried carrier vs rattlesnake and the carrier tore the snake a new one. A Gecko couldn't hit the fighters and light drones and/or missiles (that character has pretty bad missile skills though) didn't do nearly enough damage to kill half a squad of fighters before they get in range. You might kill 1 fighter, but nowhere near half the squad.
Lugh Crow-Slave
#413 - 2016-04-17 14:16:16 UTC
Miss 'Assassination' Cayman wrote:
Sgt Ocker wrote:
I also used a Rattlesnake but it was a little hard to judge - Half the squad of fighters was dead before getting in range.

How did that happen? I tried carrier vs rattlesnake and the carrier tore the snake a new one. A Gecko couldn't hit the fighters and light drones and/or missiles (that character has pretty bad missile skills though) didn't do nearly enough damage to kill half a squad of fighters before they get in range. You might kill 1 fighter, but nowhere near half the squad.



O.o you must of been struggling pretty hard our carrier pilot was having issues getting a flight of fighters in range of a Gila with out them being torn a new one. And a vni using geckos works wonders as well while at the same time the Geckos tank the sorority fighters better than the superiority fighters tank the geckos

BLOPS Hauler
The 16.8km Bubble
Miss 'Assassination' Cayman
CK-0FF
Intergalactic Space Hobos
#414 - 2016-04-17 14:26:44 UTC
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
Miss 'Assassination' Cayman wrote:
Sgt Ocker wrote:
I also used a Rattlesnake but it was a little hard to judge - Half the squad of fighters was dead before getting in range.

How did that happen? I tried carrier vs rattlesnake and the carrier tore the snake a new one. A Gecko couldn't hit the fighters and light drones and/or missiles (that character has pretty bad missile skills though) didn't do nearly enough damage to kill half a squad of fighters before they get in range. You might kill 1 fighter, but nowhere near half the squad.



O.o you must of been struggling pretty hard our carrier pilot was having issues getting a flight of fighters in range of a Gila with out them being torn a new one. And a vni using geckos works wonders as well while at the same time the Geckos tank the sorority fighters better than the superiority fighters tank the geckos

Well a Gila is much different than a Rattlesnake. Faster and much better tracking drones would reasonably cause issues for fighters. As for a VNI with Geckos, just don't see it happening. I guess I need to test some more, but when I tried that the Geckos had major trouble tracking the fighters.
Lugh Crow-Slave
#415 - 2016-04-17 15:17:58 UTC
Miss 'Assassination' Cayman wrote:
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
Miss 'Assassination' Cayman wrote:
Sgt Ocker wrote:
I also used a Rattlesnake but it was a little hard to judge - Half the squad of fighters was dead before getting in range.

How did that happen? I tried carrier vs rattlesnake and the carrier tore the snake a new one. A Gecko couldn't hit the fighters and light drones and/or missiles (that character has pretty bad missile skills though) didn't do nearly enough damage to kill half a squad of fighters before they get in range. You might kill 1 fighter, but nowhere near half the squad.



O.o you must of been struggling pretty hard our carrier pilot was having issues getting a flight of fighters in range of a Gila with out them being torn a new one. And a vni using geckos works wonders as well while at the same time the Geckos tank the sorority fighters better than the superiority fighters tank the geckos

Well a Gila is much different than a Rattlesnake. Faster and much better tracking drones would reasonably cause issues for fighters. As for a VNI with Geckos, just don't see it happening. I guess I need to test some more, but when I tried that the Geckos had major trouble tracking the fighters.


Nah just fly away and when a squad gets close turn on your Web. You will both pull away reducing damage and your geckos damage shoots up.

BLOPS Hauler
The 16.8km Bubble
Narku Bourgeoisie Tonisilitis
Pandemic Horde Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#416 - 2016-04-17 22:15:44 UTC
Why shouldn't it be possible to move fighters in and out of the fighter bay while tethered? It's bad enough that (it seems) you can't swap them out when your bay is full
Lugh Crow-Slave
#417 - 2016-04-17 22:25:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Lugh Crow-Slave
Narku Bourgeoisie Tonisilitis wrote:
Why shouldn't it be possible to move fighters in and out of the fighter bay while tethered? It's bad enough that (it seems) you can't swap them out when your bay is full


Because no ship can refit in space

And no you can't swap them out when full either to prevent people from carrying more than they should

BLOPS Hauler
The 16.8km Bubble
Narku Bourgeoisie Tonisilitis
Pandemic Horde Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#418 - 2016-04-18 00:14:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Narku Bourgeoisie Tonisilitis
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
Narku Bourgeoisie Tonisilitis wrote:
Why shouldn't it be possible to move fighters in and out of the fighter bay while tethered? It's bad enough that (it seems) you can't swap them out when your bay is full


Because no ship can refit in space


With mobile depots they can, but depots do not work for fighters--just checked. That puts carriers at a disadvantage.

Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
And no you can't swap them out when full either to prevent people from carrying more than they should


If how much they should carry is balanced to be the bay's capacity minus enough space to swap fighters, then the capacity needs to be lowered and proper swapping implemented. The current version is poorly implemented, because it's currently possible to just abandon fighters then scoop them into the fighter bay once the new ones are loaded into the tube, making it annoying either way.
Lugh Crow-Slave
#419 - 2016-04-18 00:54:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Lugh Crow-Slave
Narku Bourgeoisie Tonisilitis wrote:
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
Narku Bourgeoisie Tonisilitis wrote:
Why shouldn't it be possible to move fighters in and out of the fighter bay while tethered? It's bad enough that (it seems) you can't swap them out when your bay is full


Because no ship can refit in space


With mobile depots they can, but depots do not work for fighters--just checked. That puts carriers at a disadvantage.


ok this is new they were working yesterday (and while tethered) i could even take fighters out of other ppls fleet bays to do it
EDIT:
i just now went onto sisi you can put fighters into the bay when using a mobile depot
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
And no you can't swap them out when full either to prevent people from carrying more than they should

wrote:

If how much they should carry is balanced to be the bay's capacity minus enough space to swap fighters, then the capacity needs to be lowered and proper swapping implemented. The current version is poorly implemented, because it's currently possible to just abandon fighters then scoop them into the fighter bay once the new ones are loaded into the tube, making it annoying either way.


i would agree with this as well for some reason my brain didn't even think of that.

BLOPS Hauler
The 16.8km Bubble
Narku Bourgeoisie Tonisilitis
Pandemic Horde Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#420 - 2016-04-18 01:26:30 UTC
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
ok this is new they were working yesterday (and while tethered) i could even take fighters out of other ppls fleet bays to do it
EDIT:
i just now went onto sisi you can put fighters into the bay when using a mobile depot

Huh, it wasn't working for me. I'll check later but if it was working at some point I'm sure it'll work when it goes live.