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sero Hita
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#1841 - 2016-04-17 12:37:37 UTC  |  Edited by: sero Hita
Erihn Sabrovich wrote:

What I meant is not about the balance on the 4 kind of players but something directly linked to EVE mechanics :

Nearly every thing that you can use has to be built by players or farmed by players


If we take the amount of "stuff" (ships, modules, ammunitions), most PvE players are CREATING stuff while PvP players are destroying it.

There is a small drain present in PvE... you may lose your ship to NPC, when you reprocess something, some of the materials is lost, ... That drain may easily be increased (more difficult missions for example). And you find a big drain in PvP (each kill result in most of the stuff lost).

But, as far as "stuff" creation exists it's nearly only on the PvE side. PvP *MAY* get some LP which allow to buy some things from NPC but this is quire marginal... On the other side, Miners (ore), industrials (ships, modules,...), explorers (datacores, salvage, ...), missionners (ships, modules, LP, salvage) bring lots of new "stuff".

If you remove the PvP (or strongly deacrease it), there will still be drains (and these may be made stronger) on the PvE side... but if you remove the PvE side, stuff in EVE will quickly be destroyed and EVE economy reach a stop.

This is a consequence of the "everything is built by players" stance... And introducing NPC shops for every single module and ship would probably kill EVE quickly too...


You don't think any of the PVP'ers also create stuff (Ratting, exploration, manufactoring, mining, PI etc.) to earn enough to PVP? That is why these type of discussions are so tedious, as there would always be someone to produce modules and other stuff, even if people who only do PVE leaves. The profits as supply drops would be too tempting to ignore.

And as a side note (with the two videos in mind) I think all the focus on PVP from CCPs side, is their way to make the population healthy again (According to CCP). Increase the amount of PVP players to trim the fat of the achievers (pure PVE'ers) to get the balance of players they want. For a MMO that try to sell itself as an PVP sandbox, it has quite a lot of non pvp'ers (62% some people claim). One way to gain this balance is to buff PVP, and loose some (not all ofc.) of the pure PVE'ers.

"I'm all for pvp, don't get me wrong. I've ganked in Empire, blobed in low sec. Got T-shirts from every which-where.. But to be forced into a pvp confrontation that I didn't want is wrong ccp." RealFlisker
Eli Porter
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#1842 - 2016-04-17 12:40:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Eli Porter
Erihn Sabrovich wrote:

You said it all
- you don't chose the times, they are scheduled
- casual players sometimes stay 1-2 weeks without playing...
- roams means that you're logged-in for more than 1/2h




Mate, we have like 100 scheduled ops a week. I pick and choose what I want to join, and I don't lose progress if I don't.

Quote:

Casual gaming is about
- playing when you've time to do it

And since I can join a fleet at any time then it's not a problem.

Quote:

- being able to stop immediately without consequence (if the baby is crying, you should be able to be immediately AFK for unknown time for example)
- being able to play for length as small as 10-15 minutes

I can fleet up in a cheap fast ship and not lose anything if I have to leave abruptly.
Ria Nieyli
Nieyli Enterprises
SL33PERS
#1843 - 2016-04-17 12:42:53 UTC
Erihn Sabrovich wrote:
Somehow, it's not far related to reality...

EVE has a PvE problem... not a PvP one... So, as you're PvP, you are probably not conscious about the PvE situation well...

Don't forget that PvP players are leeching on the PvE work : miners, explorers, industrials, ... Without them, you'd not be able to buy your ships, modules, ammunitions, ...

You like to call PvE players "carebears" and to feel superior... but they are far more important than yourself for the survivability of the game... Without PvP, EVE could go on. Without PvE, EVE is dead !!!

And SP is something which is lacking to many PvE players... You may go PvP with a simple frigate but to be able to do something of value PvE-wise, you need bigger ships... Mining with a Venture takes ages... Reprocessing takes month of training... Exploration may also be quite needy... And I strongly doubt that you'd be able to do L3-L4 missions with a Frigate...



Dailies may not be the answer (I think that Rift-like events would be more adapted to bring fun in EVE's world)... but there is a need to bring things to PvE players...


I'm speechless.

Have you perhaps considered that your anti-me post is based on a false premise? Not that it matters. If the vocal mass of the playerbase is like you, CCP Rise's comment now actually makes sense.
Lugh Crow-Slave
#1844 - 2016-04-17 12:50:34 UTC
Erihn Sabrovich wrote:
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:

I really don't understand this artifisial divided between pvp and pve everything in eve is a form of pvp. There is no one who actively plays eve that does not take part in pvp. Ship on ship pvp is also needed to add value to non combat parts of eve.


But anyway none of this pvp vs pve thing has anything to do with dailies they ate bad for both

Same with the new player vs old player argument


Well, it was initially as an answer to someone who was arguing about it's PvP status affecting the meaningfulness of it's position.

It's true that trading may be felt like some sort of "PvP"... but here, it's only word-play... PvP in EVE is when several player-owned ships fight each other.

What makes EVE unique is the fact that it's economy is fully player-driven... You can find lots of PvP games but most/none of them has that "all created by player" stance...

And many PvP players feel superior to PvE players, calling them carebears and such...

To PvE-players, amount of SP is more critical than to PvP-players. As it has been pointed quite often by many people, you can PvP efficiently with low-cost, low-skill ships... And it'll be as fun as with other bigger ships as you choose target of the same size-range...

But for PvE, SP are the key to new content (higher level missions, T2 production rentability, ...) More SP is much more important to PvE players... And these "dailies" will profit them the most... And for many PvE players, the goal of these dailies is something that they do anyway (miners, missionners, combat-exploration).

This is a fact that is overlooked by most of the people who are having a tantrum about these dailies...


I don't think that's being overlooked we fir the most part are not upset by people getting more SP but how it is being given.

Like if ccp came out and said they were going to up base attribute because they felt progression was to show you would not have nearly the number of people upset. We don't like the idea of such an underhanded lazy way of getting people to log on.many of us have cone from games that were not built for dailies and added them in very lazy ways. It works for a short spike but then begins to degrade playerbases. CCP went one step father making them 22hrs after you finish. This means every second you ate not doing the daily or has a far more savvier psychological effect because every second waisted is another second before you can do it again.

It's cheap it's underhanded and it is in no way designed to af meaningful grange play. Those in support of it just go "what's wrong with free SP" "or toy don't need to do it I'd you don't want" those are not arguments against why this is bad or arguments why this is good. One is an argument that SP is good the other ignores human psychology and claims it's a neutral change.

BLOPS Hauler
The 16.8km Bubble
Ria Nieyli
Nieyli Enterprises
SL33PERS
#1845 - 2016-04-17 12:55:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Ria Nieyli
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
Like if ccp came out and said they were going to up base attribute because they felt progression was to show you would not have nearly the number of people upset.


The ideal thing would be to remove attribute implants and attributes themselves and set the base training speed to 2700 sp/hour. That won't happen now though, since you have the option of buying skill injectors to compensate for suboptimal training.
Lugh Crow-Slave
#1846 - 2016-04-17 13:04:15 UTC
Ria Nieyli wrote:
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
Like if ccp came out and said they were going to up base attribute because they felt progression was to show you would not have nearly the number of people upset.


The ideal thing would be to remove attribute implants and attributes themselves and set the base training speed to 2700 sp/hour. That won't happen now though, since you have the option of buying skill injectors to compensate for suboptimal training.


Lol it was just to make a point that ppl saying this is a good idea because of the sp were missing the problem

BLOPS Hauler
The 16.8km Bubble
Ria Nieyli
Nieyli Enterprises
SL33PERS
#1847 - 2016-04-17 13:09:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Ria Nieyli
Well, the dailies will just enhance the missing SP problem. Can't log in today? Enjoy your 10,000 SP loss. But don't worry, if you miss any, you can make it back by, you guessed it, buying skill injectors!

The most distressing part is that there are people that are clamouring for this sort of thing. And they're being pretty quick to tell me how little I matter for disagreeing with them.
Lugh Crow-Slave
#1848 - 2016-04-17 13:38:33 UTC
Ria Nieyli wrote:
Well, the dailies will just enhance the missing SP problem. Can't log in today? Enjoy your 10,000 SP loss. But don't worry, if you miss any, you can make it back by, you guessed it, buying skill injectors!

The most distressing part is that there are people that are clamouring for this sort of thing. And they're being pretty quick to tell me how little I matter for disagreeing with them.



They also seem so quick to find reasons people disagree with this other than its a bad idea

You just don't like new players

You're just upset is PVE

you're just a bitter vet who doesn't like change

So any point you make is invalid

BLOPS Hauler
The 16.8km Bubble
Indahmawar Fazmarai
#1849 - 2016-04-17 13:40:02 UTC
Mizhir wrote:
(...)

You are aware that the typical EVE players are much older than many other MMOs/games? I know plenty of people who plays EVE once in a while when they can set aside a few hours for roaming or other activities. In my previous corp (Matari Exodus) we typically arranged 2-3 days each week where most of us could play and went roaming there. And the rest of the days we didn't have to think about EVE. So that was indeed Scheduled, a few times a week, AND fun roams. And we still had what I would call a casual approach to it despite not living up to your arbitrary list about casual gaming.


I too have limited time so instead of setting 3 hours aside for a roam ocne a week, I engage in things that can be accomplished in 1 hour or less. Similar issue, different approach.

Quote:


The SP system itself is one of the things that makes EVE a suitable game for people who can't put in that many hours. You will still progress even when you aren't logged in. Sure, a player with plenty of game hours per week will be able to farm more isk, but he will most likely also spend more of it since he will roam more as well.


Well, you may set apart 3 hours for a roam and a npc kill once a week, or 15 minutes for a NPC kill each day. Or both. Maybe even as CCP hopes, being logged in each day as opposed than just once a week, improves your chances to find a roam or something else you enjoy.

One of the silly points here is that people are calling in "dailies" when it's just a daily incentive. A "daily" would be something like "run an anomaly" or "complete a mission by this agent" or anything more demanding than "log in for 15 minutes, find a NPC and kill it".
Amarisen Gream
The.Kin.of.Jupiter
#1850 - 2016-04-17 13:50:38 UTC
Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:
Mizhir wrote:
(...)

You are aware that the typical EVE players are much older than many other MMOs/games? I know plenty of people who plays EVE once in a while when they can set aside a few hours for roaming or other activities. In my previous corp (Matari Exodus) we typically arranged 2-3 days each week where most of us could play and went roaming there. And the rest of the days we didn't have to think about EVE. So that was indeed Scheduled, a few times a week, AND fun roams. And we still had what I would call a casual approach to it despite not living up to your arbitrary list about casual gaming.


I too have limited time so instead of setting 3 hours aside for a roam ocne a week, I engage in things that can be accomplished in 1 hour or less. Similar issue, different approach.

Quote:


The SP system itself is one of the things that makes EVE a suitable game for people who can't put in that many hours. You will still progress even when you aren't logged in. Sure, a player with plenty of game hours per week will be able to farm more isk, but he will most likely also spend more of it since he will roam more as well.


Well, you may set apart 3 hours for a roam and a npc kill once a week, or 15 minutes for a NPC kill each day. Or both. Maybe even as CCP hopes, being logged in each day as opposed than just once a week, improves your chances to find a roam or something else you enjoy.

One of the silly points here is that people are calling in "dailies" when it's just a daily incentive. A "daily" would be something like "run an anomaly" or "complete a mission by this agent" or anything more demanding than "log in for 15 minutes, find a NPC and kill it".



CCP Rise said it would be the first of many daily actives - and thus, they are dailies.

"The Lord loosed upon them his fierce anger All of his fury and rage. He dispatched against them a band of Avenging Angels" - The Scriptures, Book II, Apocalypse 10:1

#NPCLivesMatter #Freetheboobs
Terranid Meester
Tactical Assault and Recon Unit
#1851 - 2016-04-17 13:53:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Terranid Meester
Even in other games ex-EA folk [AKA CCP Denebola, apt name at least] are ruining them.

No real idea why people actually log-in to eve, no real idea in general.
Lugh Crow-Slave
#1852 - 2016-04-17 14:10:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Lugh Crow-Slave
Indahmawar Fazmarai
#1853 - 2016-04-17 14:17:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Indahmawar Fazmarai
sero Hita wrote:
(...)

And as a side note (with the two videos in mind) I think all the focus on PVP from CCPs side, is their way to make the population healthy again (According to CCP). Increase the amount of PVP players to trim the fat of the achievers (pure PVE'ers) to get the balance of players they want. For a MMO that try to sell itself as an PVP sandbox, it has quite a lot of non pvp'ers (62% some people claim). One way to gain this balance is to buff PVP, and loose some (not all ofc.) of the pure PVE'ers.


The problem is that 1 PvP = 1 PvE in terms of money, but PvErs are more abundant.

What you mean of buffing PvP could be achieved easily by just removing some of the safeguards implemented since the good old days when EVE was full of PvP players and TQ hosted a fraction of the current population.

The problem is that EVE has grown larger and safer, rather than stay small and dangerous. Both are related. EVE is larger because is safer. And for obvious reasons, CCP might oppose to making EVE smaller, so they try to keep it large. Thus they try very hard to lure people into PvP, and try very hard to make PvP a little bit more accessible, and do everything they can to grow EVE by means of PvP... and yet they are failing. They keep losing customers faster than they can be replaced now that EVE is old, MMOs are old, and the whole MMO industry is not exactly in its peak.

Because like it or not, EVE is a PvE game with a topping of PvP. As some say, PvE is the base of the pyramid and PvP is the gold plated top of it, shining for kilometers away, but the top wouldn't be there without all the dull blocks below.
Mizhir
Devara Biotech
#1854 - 2016-04-17 14:23:45 UTC
Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:
Mizhir wrote:
(...)

You are aware that the typical EVE players are much older than many other MMOs/games? I know plenty of people who plays EVE once in a while when they can set aside a few hours for roaming or other activities. In my previous corp (Matari Exodus) we typically arranged 2-3 days each week where most of us could play and went roaming there. And the rest of the days we didn't have to think about EVE. So that was indeed Scheduled, a few times a week, AND fun roams. And we still had what I would call a casual approach to it despite not living up to your arbitrary list about casual gaming.


I too have limited time so instead of setting 3 hours aside for a roam ocne a week, I engage in things that can be accomplished in 1 hour or less. Similar issue, different approach.


Except dailies would favour your approach.

Quote:
Quote:


The SP system itself is one of the things that makes EVE a suitable game for people who can't put in that many hours. You will still progress even when you aren't logged in. Sure, a player with plenty of game hours per week will be able to farm more isk, but he will most likely also spend more of it since he will roam more as well.


Well, you may set apart 3 hours for a roam and a npc kill once a week, or 15 minutes for a NPC kill each day. Or both. Maybe even as CCP hopes, being logged in each day as opposed than just once a week, improves your chances to find a roam or something else you enjoy.

One of the silly points here is that people are calling in "dailies" when it's just a daily incentive. A "daily" would be something like "run an anomaly" or "complete a mission by this agent" or anything more demanding than "log in for 15 minutes, find a NPC and kill it".


Quite the opposite. The dailies will make it feel like a chore to log in and shoot a rat rather than logging in being something I look forward to. CCP may look at their numbers and see more people would be logged in. But what is the point if people are just mindlessly loggin in to shoot a rat and then **** off again? And depending on how much people value the 10k SP it may even make people priotise the dailies over going on a roam.

❤️️💛💚💙💜
Indahmawar Fazmarai
#1855 - 2016-04-17 14:44:55 UTC
Mizhir wrote:
Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:
Mizhir wrote:
(...)

You are aware that the typical EVE players are much older than many other MMOs/games? I know plenty of people who plays EVE once in a while when they can set aside a few hours for roaming or other activities. In my previous corp (Matari Exodus) we typically arranged 2-3 days each week where most of us could play and went roaming there. And the rest of the days we didn't have to think about EVE. So that was indeed Scheduled, a few times a week, AND fun roams. And we still had what I would call a casual approach to it despite not living up to your arbitrary list about casual gaming.


I too have limited time so instead of setting 3 hours aside for a roam ocne a week, I engage in things that can be accomplished in 1 hour or less. Similar issue, different approach.


Except dailies would favour your approach.


Only as long as their opportunity cost can be afforded and/or they integrate in the daily flow. I can afford to not earn 10,000 SP or 15 million ISK a day, and earning them involves doing exactly what I am already doing -shoot NPCs.

Now let's say there where like the PvE events... must succeed once a day or you will regret what you're missing... Then I would be howling under the moon exaclty as all you do. Yet CCP hasn't done that stupid. They may do it fo course, but so far I have a hope that they intend rewarding mundane daily activities, starting with the easy and popular and ending with fringe and difficult ones.

Quote:
Quite the opposite. The dailies will make it feel like a chore to log in and shoot a rat rather than logging in being something I look forward to. CCP may look at their numbers and see more people would be logged in. But what is the point if people are just mindlessly loggin in to shoot a rat and then **** off again? And depending on how much people value the 10k SP it may even make people priotise the dailies over going on a roam.


Only until they reward you for assembling in a roam-sized fleet and jumping n systems once a week. Say, 50,000 SP for that, so they pay you in a weekend what you couldn't earn during the week.
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#1856 - 2016-04-17 15:06:49 UTC
Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:

No. I am saying that getting 10,000 free SP just for playing my way, each day, is nice with me. It's literally money for nothing for me. I mean, I even shoot rats in belts while mining. I rarely log off without killing a NPC. And now CCP wants to give me 10,000 free SP each day for it? Bring it on!

Dailies are not about EVE being fun. They're a bribe to bear with how unfun it is. It's like saying "here, have unlimited coffee while you eat our poorly done breakfast".


How about people who live in NPC 0.0 who want to maintain standings with the local faction?

Those PvErs can go fly a kite as far as you're concerned?

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#1857 - 2016-04-17 15:45:55 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:

No. I am saying that getting 10,000 free SP just for playing my way, each day, is nice with me. It's literally money for nothing for me. I mean, I even shoot rats in belts while mining. I rarely log off without killing a NPC. And now CCP wants to give me 10,000 free SP each day for it? Bring it on!

Dailies are not about EVE being fun. They're a bribe to bear with how unfun it is. It's like saying "here, have unlimited coffee while you eat our poorly done breakfast".


How about people who live in NPC 0.0 who want to maintain standings with the local faction?

Those PvErs can go fly a kite as far as you're concerned?


Start one mission, kill rat, collect SP.
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#1858 - 2016-04-17 15:46:48 UTC
Ria Nieyli wrote:
Well, the dailies will just enhance the missing SP problem. Can't log in today? Enjoy your 10,000 SP loss. But don't worry, if you miss any, you can make it back by, you guessed it, buying skill injectors!


How the hell do you lose 10k SP you never had in the first place?
Erihn Sabrovich
#1859 - 2016-04-17 15:57:55 UTC
Ria Nieyli wrote:

I'm speechless.

Have you perhaps considered that your anti-me post is based on a false premise? Not that it matters. If the vocal mass of the playerbase is like you, CCP Rise's comment now actually makes sense.


There may be more people thinking this way than you think... And, as you said, this would give more sense to Rise's comment which tend to point that this may be a fact.

Don't forget that CCP has more information about what REALLY happens in their game than any player can have... The premise may not be so untrue that you'd like to think...
Erihn Sabrovich
#1860 - 2016-04-17 16:03:31 UTC
Ria Nieyli wrote:
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
Like if ccp came out and said they were going to up base attribute because they felt progression was to show you would not have nearly the number of people upset.


The ideal thing would be to remove attribute implants and attributes themselves and set the base training speed to 2700 sp/hour. That won't happen now though, since you have the option of buying skill injectors to compensate for suboptimal training.


I think that the attributes are a good think... if you plan carefully your skill training, you may make use of remap to speed things up... this is part of the gameplay...

The implants is something else : it is clearly a drawback for PvP players (who risks to lose them much more than PvE players)... So I can easily understand that you don't like them... Going PvP will full +5 is clearly a no-go... But, well, just like remap and the proposed dailies, it's OPTIONNAL...