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What we grrrrgoons going to do?

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Cidanel Afuran
Grant Village
#401 - 2016-04-15 02:16:32 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
So you are saying that if he didn't use that software and just did it in game, he would be able to acquire isk at the same rate he does now? I don't believe you, because that's obviously wrong.


Not a single ISK has been generated by the website. 100% of it was generated inside the game through donations to players. Are you honestly going to disagree with that?

Quote:
Since their share purchases are generally done on the forum, probably not. There's a slight difference between volumes of isk able to be made between the sites though, since minerbumping is literally just a blog, while IWI is a full web application. If anything minerbmping shows more realistically how little IWI would make if it really didn't use a third party app to acquire all that isk.


So now we're arguing semantics? Come on Lukey. One more time you are selectively choosing the 3rd party apps you like. Both IWI and minerbumping get ISK purely through donations. They are literally the same thing. They both use the social/meta side of the game to convince people to give them ISK. You do realize there is more to EVE than simply blowing up spaceships, right?

Quote:
No, you really need to read the EULA. The rule is that third party applications may not facilitate the acquisition of items or currency at an accelerated rate compared to normal play. At no point does it state that it needs to be automated for it to be classed as bannable.


Direct question, how much ISK was generated by IWI's website? How much was generated outside of direct transactions between real players actively playing EVE inside the game? Give me an exact number? (hint, it's zero)

Quote:
Really? Log into the client full screen and don't use any outside tools or websites. Tada, everything you are looking at is "normal gameplay".


So you agree with me then. Great! Exactly zero ISK has traded hands to IWI outside of real players donating isk to themselves inside the game.

I honestly can't tell if you're one of the better trolls of all time, or if you actually believe what you write...
Archibald Thistlewaite III
The Royal Society for the Prevention of Miners
#402 - 2016-04-15 06:08:53 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:

Cidanel Afuran wrote:
You keep using that term. Please define 'normal gameplay' for us
Really? Log into the client full screen and don't use any outside tools or websites. Tada, everything you are looking at is "normal gameplay".
So, using the give isk option is normal gameplay.

User of 'Bumblefck's Luscious & Luminous Mustachio Wax'
Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
#403 - 2016-04-15 07:07:52 UTC
Archibald Thistlewaite III wrote:
Lucas Kell wrote:

Cidanel Afuran wrote:
You keep using that term. Please define 'normal gameplay' for us
Really? Log into the client full screen and don't use any outside tools or websites. Tada, everything you are looking at is "normal gameplay".
So, using the give isk option is normal gameplay.



Dude, your face! Shocked

Bring back DEEEEP Space!
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#404 - 2016-04-15 07:12:10 UTC
Wexiz wrote:
Not been in the captain's cabin for sometime, but casinos used to be advertised on the screen which would have been before the changes to the bounty system. Back then a lot of the most wanted characters were connected with casinos. So they were tolerated at least in the past.
So was ISBoxer. Times change. Especially once it gets to the point that a normal player has no way of being competitive with in-game mechanics.

Cidanel Afuran wrote:
Not a single ISK has been generated by the website. 100% of it was generated inside the game through donations to players. Are you honestly going to disagree with that?
N, I don;t, but the rules isnt; about generating isk, it's about acquiring isk. If it were only about generating isk there would be multiple tools like (like market bots for example) which would not be covered. Your inability to read the EULA is your problem.

Let me know when you have a half decent argument not based on your misunderstanding.

Archibald Thistlewaite III wrote:
So, using the give isk option is normal gameplay.
Indeed it is. So stop IWI from being allowed to use their site and let's see how much isk they acquire purely through asking for donations. I guarantee that without the third party application they can't acquire isk at the same rate, proving categorically that the application is what facilitates the acquisition of ISK.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Archibald Thistlewaite III
The Royal Society for the Prevention of Miners
#405 - 2016-04-15 07:23:47 UTC
Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:
Archibald Thistlewaite III wrote:
Lucas Kell wrote:

Cidanel Afuran wrote:
You keep using that term. Please define 'normal gameplay' for us
Really? Log into the client full screen and don't use any outside tools or websites. Tada, everything you are looking at is "normal gameplay".
So, using the give isk option is normal gameplay.



Dude, your face! Shocked
I use copious amounts of 'Bumblefck's Luscious Luminous Mustachio Wax' on a daily basis

User of 'Bumblefck's Luscious & Luminous Mustachio Wax'
TigerXtrm
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#406 - 2016-04-15 09:30:36 UTC  |  Edited by: TigerXtrm
Lucas Kell wrote:
So explain exactly why you think that IWI which is undeniably a third party application, which allows the owner to acquire isk at a faster rate than normal gameplay isn't covered by the EULA clause covering exactly that? And often CCP don't act all the time there's no light being shined on things.


The main problem here is, once again, that people need to stop interpreting CCP's EULA for them. They wrote the damn thing, they enforce the damn thing, they don't need you or me or any of their paying players to tell them wat is and isn't against the EULA. If CCP tells you that something is okay to do, what is waving the EULA in their face going to accomplish? It's not the US constitution and CCP isn't a government body bound by the EULA they themselves wrote. They can ignore and cherry pick the EULA whenever they damn well please and the only people who should be worried about that is CCP's own internal affairs staff.

If you have an issue with something, make your case for it independently. Take it up with CCP, send in a ticket, send an e-mail, open a thread on the forum. But DON'T come in quoting the EULA as if it's somehow meant to limit what CCP can and can't do, because that's not what it's for. It's intended to limit what YOU can and can't do. And CCP is allowed to make exceptions all day long if they want.

As for IWI, I think it's amazing that things like this can exist in our little game world. What other game has gambling sites that allow you to use your game currency to play, win things, lose things? And in what other game is that gambling site ran by an actual player who can turn around and decide the course of a game's narrative for thousands of people? As a community we should be proud that initiatives like this exist, it's what makes EVE unique. The only thing it requires is that CCP keeps a close eye on it to make sure such sites aren't abused for RMT purposes.

My YouTube Channel - EVE Tutorials & other game related things!

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Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#407 - 2016-04-15 09:52:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Lucas Kell
TigerXtrm wrote:
The main problem here is, once again, that people need to stop interpreting CCP's EULA for them. They wrote the damn thing, they enforce the damn thing, they don't need you or me or any of their paying players to tell them wat is and isn't against the EULA. If CCP tells you that something is okay to do, what is waving the EULA in their face going to accomplish? It's not the US constitution and CCP isn't a government body bound by the EULA they themselves wrote. They can ignore and cherry pick the EULA whenever they damn well please and the only people who should be worried about that is CCP's own internal affairs staff.

If you have an issue with something, make your case for it independently. Take it up with CCP, send in a ticket, send an e-mail, open a thread on the forum. But DON'T come in quoting the EULA as if it's somehow meant to limit what CCP can and can't do, because that's not what it's for. It's intended to limit what YOU can and can't do. And CCP is allowed to make exceptions all day long if they want.
I'm not interpreting their EULA for them. Like with many other situations I'm just calling it as I see it and it's up to CCP to decide if they want to act. You're right, they wrote their EULA so it's up to them to decide how to enforce it, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't still call that enforcement into question. It's through people pushing for change that progress is made.

TigerXtrm wrote:
As for IWI, I think it's amazing that things like this can exist in our little game world. What other game has gambling sites that allow you to use your game currency to play, win things, lose things? And in what other game is that gambling site ran by an actual player who can turn around and decide the course of a game's narrative for thousands of people? As a community we should be proud that initiatives like this exist, it's what makes EVE unique. The only thing it requires is that CCP keeps a close eye on it to make sure such sites aren't abused for RMT purposes.
Probably no other MMO does that, certainly not through a third party website, and that's because as is being demonstrated here it introduces game breaking levels of imbalance. What makes EVE unique is it's a powerfully competitive sandbox with less constricting and pandering rules. Competitive gets throws out of the window however when third party applications are allowed to be used to this extreme. Why would I be proud that a third pary application allows people to beat anyone playing the game through normal means? Are you proud of botters too as long as they don't RMT?

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Chloe 'Eris' Morgan
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#408 - 2016-04-15 10:14:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Chloe 'Eris' Morgan
Chloe 'Eris' Morgan wrote:
Hahaha that's a slightly whiney response, I've never been ganked by a Goon, Code or anyone for that matter (see for yourself on my KB, but then I am an alt!). Surely if the people using IWI are breaking the EULA then we would see the ban hammer? But alas we're not......Maybe CCP are sick of you lot too, oh yeah they are, FozzySov proves that.

Lucas Kell wrote:

Whiney? In what way? You;'re babbling on about Burn Jita like in means a damn thing then rolling don the route of "can't wait for the end of goons HAHAHA ALL THE TEARS" which is classic defensive crap from highsec gank victims. Calling everything tears doesn't actually make it so it just makes you look desperate.


Whiney as in your first response to me was that I must have been ganked, highsec bear blah blah blah.....

You're either not reading responses or just playing the fool, I've never been ganked as previously stated, look at my KB. The reason I don't like the majority of the Goons is because my main was in FCON for a few years and had first hand experience to form my own opinion on the matter. I didn't need IWI to finance a war against them to make me jump on the grrrrgoons or grrrCFC bandwagon, I left 30+ because I couldn't stand to listen to them anymore. Once FCON gets it's own SOV now I'm sure the blue status will be reset as many of the people in alliance dislike goons for the same reasons but saw them as a necessary evil for the time being since they had prosperous systems.

Also I mentioned Burn Jita once in relation to the current burning of your space and how hilarious it is.

Lucas Kell wrote:
Clearly they are otherwise there would be so many posts direct at me.


Probably the most realistic thing you've said (in part), and for that reason I've said all I want on the matter.

Cry me a river space monkey!
Trudeaux Margaret
University of Caille
#409 - 2016-04-15 11:03:42 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
I'm not interpreting their EULA for them. Like with many other situations I'm just calling it as I see it and it's up to CCP to decide if they want to act. You're right, they wrote their EULA so it's up to them to decide how to enforce it, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't still call that enforcement into question. It's through people pushing for change that progress is made.


That is all very noble on paper, but I would love to know for certain whether you have actually filed a formal ticket or petition with them about this. I don't even care to know about the answer, if any, because I understand that there may be rules about sharing private correspondence from CCP employees blah blah, that come into play.

I just want to know how committed to this you really are. Seriously, it seems to me that you're brown-nosing The Mittani more than anything else. He brought this up in one of his dispatches to the faithful sometime last week and you've been on a tear about it ever since.

> anyone willing to give me like a 5 min politics crash course?

> grr goons, lowsec is full of elitist sh*s, all roads lead to the bittervet pl
Speedkermit Damo
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#410 - 2016-04-15 11:04:52 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
Trudeaux Margaret wrote:
And you have pointed it out in this thread -- repeatedly.

You'd think that even after such events as the Somer Blink fiasco and the aforementioned dustup between SMA and IWI which resulted in the banning and subsequent unbanning of a number of IWI's bankers, that CCP would have shut down casino operations by now. Yet they have not. I ask again why you don't petition them formally and lay out your case, and see if they give you a a ruling on the matter? Since it's a topic that seems to hit close to home to you, why not do that instead of cry about it on the forums?
You're suggesting I haven't? Nobody here is crying.

Chloe 'Eris' Morgan wrote:
Hahaha that's a slightly whiney response, I've never been ganked by a Goon, Code or anyone for that matter (see for yourself on my KB, but then I am an alt!). Surely if the people using IWI are breaking the EULA then we would see the ban hammer? But alas we're not......Maybe CCP are sick of you lot too, oh yeah they are, FozzySov proves that.
Whiney? In what way? You;'re babbling on about Burn Jita like in means a damn thing then rolling don the route of "can't wait for the end of goons HAHAHA ALL THE TEARS" which is classic defensive crap from highsec gank victims. Calling everything tears doesn't actually make it so it just makes you look desperate.

Chloe 'Eris' Morgan wrote:
as no one is listening to you
Clearly they are otherwise there would be so many posts direct at me.

TigerXtrm wrote:
Gambling sites have been around for years, CCP is well aware of them and is condoning or even endorsing them by providing sponsorship or positive mentions. Nothing about this is currently against the EULA and if CCP thought there was some sort of problem with it the entire gambling niche would have been banned after the SOMER Blink fiasco.

Between full on market traders and incursion runners, a single guy running a gambling site is hardly something that jumps out. Trillions upon trillions can be made by any clever player who is willing to put in the time and effort. And make no mistake, running a site like that and managing all the people working for it is no easy task. I'd say it's many times harder than making trillions station trading or running incursions. God knows especially the latter is so easy even TEST could do it.
So explain exactly why you think that IWI which is undeniably a third party application, which allows the owner to acquire isk at a faster rate than normal gameplay isn't covered by the EULA clause covering exactly that? And often CCP don't act all the time there's no light being shined on things.

And sure, there's other ways to make trillions, usually with a whole heap of work over a long period of time and still it's all dwarfed by a guy running a third party application. Not to mention that every single one of those in-gmae mechanics can be affected and attacked by players using in-game methods while IWI cannot. And I didn't state it was an easy task, I'm sure running 200 bots isn't an easy task, yet that's still banned. Just because it takes effort doesn't change whether it's right or not to allow it.

At the end of the day, I still see this as a third party app that allows a player to effectively win EVE by have a completely uncounterable method of gaining more isk that even whole alliances can make. A lot of people are happy with it now because their target is goons and they don't like goons, but that doesn't make it right to allow it. There's no point in other players even trying to compete with that.


I don't recall seeing you taking issue with IWI, until after you lost all your space and your "mighty" coalition started failcascading.

Protect me from knowing what I don't need to know. Protect me from even knowing that there are things to know that I don't know. Protect me from knowing that I decided not to know about the things that I decided not to know about. Amen.
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#411 - 2016-04-15 11:07:39 UTC
Chloe 'Eris' Morgan wrote:
Whiney as in your first response to me was that I must have been ganked, highsec bear blah blah blah.....
Well you were the one complaining about Burn Jita bro.

Chloe 'Eris' Morgan wrote:
Also I mentioned Burn Jita once in relation to the current burning of your space and how hilarious it is.
I live in Deklein now? Since when?

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Mephiztopheleze
Laphroaig Inc.
#412 - 2016-04-15 11:13:54 UTC
*popcorn*
The MBC has a long way to go before they can honestly claim victory.

Occasional Resident Newbie Correspondent for TMC: http://themittani.com/search/site/mephiztopheleze

This is my Forum Main. My Combat Alt is sambo Inkura
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#413 - 2016-04-15 11:19:32 UTC
Trudeaux Margaret wrote:
That is all very noble on paper, but I would love to know for certain whether you have actually filed a formal ticket or petition with them about this. I don't even care to know about the answer, if any, because I understand that there may be rules about sharing private correspondence from CCP employees blah blah, that come into play.

I just want to know how committed to this you really are. Seriously, it seems to me that you're brown-nosing The Mittani more than anything else. He brought this up in one of his dispatches to the faithful sometime last week and you've been on a tear about it ever since.
Yes, it's been raised.

And no, this has nothing to do with Mittani. Once again I invite you to peruse my post history and you'll find that my stance on these gambling sites has been the same for a long time, likely longer than I've been in the Imperium. The only thing the latest activities have done is compound my belief that they are bad for the game and encourage me to push even harder for their removal.

Speedkermit Damo wrote:
I don't recall seeing you taking issue with IWI, until after you lost all your space and your "mighty" coalition started failcascading.
When what you recall dictates reality, let me know.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Trudeaux Margaret
University of Caille
#414 - 2016-04-15 11:21:22 UTC
Mephiztopheleze wrote:
*popcorn*
The MBC has a long way to go before they can honestly claim victory.



We certainly do. I am very wary of the folks who have been counting chickens. However, as I understand it, some of the recent delay was sorting out who was going to be the one to 'take' Deklein on a permanent basis. You'll see now that things are moving once again and timers in that region are being created.

> anyone willing to give me like a 5 min politics crash course?

> grr goons, lowsec is full of elitist sh*s, all roads lead to the bittervet pl
Trudeaux Margaret
University of Caille
#415 - 2016-04-15 11:25:42 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
Trudeaux Margaret wrote:
That is all very noble on paper, but I would love to know for certain whether you have actually filed a formal ticket or petition with them about this. I don't even care to know about the answer, if any, because I understand that there may be rules about sharing private correspondence from CCP employees blah blah, that come into play.

I just want to know how committed to this you really are. Seriously, it seems to me that you're brown-nosing The Mittani more than anything else. He brought this up in one of his dispatches to the faithful sometime last week and you've been on a tear about it ever since.
Yes, it's been raised.


Thank you.

Quote:
And no, this has nothing to do with Mittani. Once again I invite you to peruse my post history and you'll find that my stance on these gambling sites has been the same for a long time, likely longer than I've been in the Imperium. The only thing the latest activities have done is compound my belief that they are bad for the game and encourage me to push even harder for their removal.


Well, SMA's involvement with IWI was certainly horrible, to be sure, but there is plenty of blame to go around on SMA's side in that mess as well.

> anyone willing to give me like a 5 min politics crash course?

> grr goons, lowsec is full of elitist sh*s, all roads lead to the bittervet pl
Chloe 'Eris' Morgan
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#416 - 2016-04-15 11:33:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Chloe 'Eris' Morgan
Lucas Kell wrote:
Chloe 'Eris' Morgan wrote:
Whiney as in your first response to me was that I must have been ganked, highsec bear blah blah blah.....
Well you were the one complaining about Burn Jita bro.


I know I said I wouldn't be back but I couldn't resist...... Please direct me to the post where I 'complained' about Burn Jita??! It's a good community driven event just like grrrgoons! You have just proven my previous post!

Lucas Kell wrote:

I live in Deklein now? Since when?


Apologies you obviously don't live there, I was all excited when I was posting in a grrrgoons thread!! But as former pets the ultimate purpose was to buffer Deklein away from everyone else.

Thank you, now I really must go... I have some gambling to do on IWI!!!
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#417 - 2016-04-15 12:44:11 UTC
Chloe 'Eris' Morgan wrote:
I know I said I wouldn't be back but I couldn't resist......
Honestly, I'm shocked.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Cidanel Afuran
Grant Village
#418 - 2016-04-15 14:21:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Cidanel Afuran
Lucas Kell wrote:
N, I don;t, but the rules isnt; about generating isk, it's about acquiring isk. If it were only about generating isk there would be multiple tools like (like market bots for example) which would not be covered. Your inability to read the EULA is your problem.

Let me know when you have a half decent argument not based on your misunderstanding.


IWI hasn't acquired a single ISK outside of the game. 100% of it has been through donations to real players playing real time. Market bots mean a real person isn't pressing the keys real time to acquire the isk. in IWI's case a real person is physically at the keyboard doing transactions with other players real time for 100% of the ISK acquired. It is 100% covered under the EULA. You playing mental gymnastics to try and get that site shut down makes me think one of three things.

1) you honestly don't understand the EULA
2) you're trying to push propaganda to get a legitimate service shut down as part of the meta of the game
3) you're just trolling us

Which is it?
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#419 - 2016-04-15 14:37:30 UTC
http://www.ibtimes.com/eve-online-battle-control-most-boring-video-game-world-2352253

Quote:
Known as The Mittani within the virtual world of “Eve Online,” Gianturco commands an army of 40,000 space pilots loyal to his Imperium coalition. He has a trusted band of lieutenants and uses propaganda, espionage and deception to retain his position as the game’s most powerful player, describing himself as the Vladimir Putin of the “Eve” universe. He has even leveraged his position to earn a living from “Eve Online,” setting up his own website and renting out his army of mercenaries to other video games.


Just seemed relevant.
Speedkermit Damo
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#420 - 2016-04-15 14:57:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Speedkermit Damo
Jenn aSide wrote:
http://www.ibtimes.com/eve-online-battle-control-most-boring-video-game-world-2352253

Quote:
Known as The Mittani within the virtual world of “Eve Online,” Gianturco commands an army of 40,000 space pilots loyal to his Imperium coalition. He has a trusted band of lieutenants and uses propaganda, espionage and deception to retain his position as the game’s most powerful player, describing himself as the Vladimir Putin of the “Eve” universe. He has even leveraged his position to earn a living from “Eve Online,” setting up his own website and renting out his army of mercenaries to other video games.


Just seemed relevant.


It looks as if IBT were less than impressed by what Mittens said in "those" leaks.

However a pretty poor article.

Protect me from knowing what I don't need to know. Protect me from even knowing that there are things to know that I don't know. Protect me from knowing that I decided not to know about the things that I decided not to know about. Amen.