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World War Bee

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Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#241 - 2016-04-14 22:01:45 UTC
Isaac Armer wrote:
So it's pretty dire that you have to use zKillboard, you have to use slack/etc to ping corpmates, you have to use out of game comms (go on a roam with only in game comms and tell me how it went compared to TS3).

You're a station trader, right? Go the next month without using a single out of game spreadsheet or market tool and let me know how effective you are at making ISK.
But you don't have to use any of those things. There's certainly no game mechanics that require a player to use those to counter gameplay, and when a player is using one of those they don't become uncounterable to players who aren't using them.

And mate, I've been playing since practically the beginning of time. While I use some tools to track and report on progress, the vast majority of what I trade I do without tools. It would be no problem to stop using them for a month. Hell, I could make a fair chunk of my income flipping plex, skill injectors and skill extractors alone and they most certainly require no tools to run. You probably want to pick a tougher task than that if you;re trying to make a point.

I don't disagree though that some tools do give an advantage, even tools I do use like eve-o preview for multiboxing for example. I've even tried to push for them to be disallowed too. All I'm saying is that IWI is another one and it does so in a much more powerful and uncounterable way than people looking at ZKB.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#242 - 2016-04-14 22:06:09 UTC
Khanh'rhh wrote:
Pretty sure you did read it, which is why you have no reply.
Nope, the moment you start going all hurfy I stop reading as it's undoubtedly going to be a waste of time. You want to present realistic arguments without attacks, insults and condescending attitude, great, if not expect to get huge chunks of your post ignored.

Khanh'rhh wrote:
I have no idea why you think IWI "generates" ISK.

On a basic level do you not understand where the ISK comes from?
Market bots don't "generate" ISK. Should they be allowed?

Also, you need to reread the EULA. Here, I'll post it for you and highlight it.
Quote:
You may not use your own or any third-party software, macros or other stored rapid keystrokes or other patterns of play that facilitate acquisition of items, currency, objects, character attributes, rank or status at an accelerated rate when compared with ordinary Game play.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Khanh'rhh
Sparkle Motion.
#243 - 2016-04-14 22:08:57 UTC
Ok so here's your next post to ignore "without attacks, insults and condescending attitude"

You can re-create IWI in-game by creating chat channels and inviting participants to play the same games under the same basic rules and rewards. It would make money much slower, but it would be the same mechanism.

Likewise, you can use only in-game chat to organise a coalition of 40k people. It would be much less effective than jabber but would be the same basic mechanism.

Please explain why one is OK and one is not.

"Do not touch anything unnecessarily. Beware of pretty girls in dance halls and parks who may be spies, as well as bicycles, revolvers, uniforms, arms, dead horses, and men lying on roads -- they are not there accidentally." -Soviet infantry manual,

Shayla Etherodyne
Delta Laroth Industries
#244 - 2016-04-14 22:09:56 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
Isaac Armer wrote:
Are you being serious right now?

Having voice comms instead of typing instructions to each other for fleet coordination doesn't accelerate gameplay in your mind?
It's got nothing to do with my mind, it's CCPs mind. They've explicitly stated that as you can imagine voice comms are fine. The applications they have a problem with are ones that allow you to make in-game gains in an accelerated way compared to ordinary gameplay.


Scams get exactly the same result as gambling houses. You are against scams?
Khanh'rhh
Sparkle Motion.
#245 - 2016-04-14 22:11:12 UTC
tl;dr - your defence of other third party addons is you "could" do them ingame, even though it is massively less efficient to do so, and no one does.

I am defending IWI with the same argument, you "could" do it in game. Therefore in your logic, it must be OK.

FYI this is pretty much QED because such gambling games existed in eve before the API came along and allowed them to move to 3rd party solutions.

You're arguing something can't exist that absolutely has in the past.

"Do not touch anything unnecessarily. Beware of pretty girls in dance halls and parks who may be spies, as well as bicycles, revolvers, uniforms, arms, dead horses, and men lying on roads -- they are not there accidentally." -Soviet infantry manual,

Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#246 - 2016-04-14 22:23:05 UTC
Khanh'rhh wrote:
You can re-create IWI in-game by creating chat channels and inviting participants to play the same games under the same basic rules and rewards. It would make money much slower, but it would be the same mechanism.
So then you agree that using the third party software IWI is able to acquire ISK an an accelerated rate to "normal gameplay"?

Khanh'rhh wrote:
Please explain why one is OK and one is not.
Because one allows you to acquire ISK at an accelerated rate and the other does not. Once again though I agree that they both provide a benefit, I just disagree with the level ant type of benefit given by sites like IWI much more than I disagree with the level and type of benefits of a messaging program.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Khanh'rhh
Sparkle Motion.
#247 - 2016-04-14 22:25:28 UTC
All 3rd party tools allow you to make ISK at an accelerated rate. You just chose to ignore my examples.

Trying again:
3rd party market scrapers
API linked spreadsheets
Travel planners
Jabber
TS3
Mumble

"Do not touch anything unnecessarily. Beware of pretty girls in dance halls and parks who may be spies, as well as bicycles, revolvers, uniforms, arms, dead horses, and men lying on roads -- they are not there accidentally." -Soviet infantry manual,

Khanh'rhh
Sparkle Motion.
#248 - 2016-04-14 22:28:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Khanh'rhh
FWIW all eve trillionaires basically got there by leveraging 3rd party tools to process market data more rapidly than "normal gameplay" allows.

This is why it's just so so silly that you think IWI is the one example of this. You are trying really really hard to create a definition where they're bad, and everything else that you want is OK, and it's so painfully transparent I don't think you have even convinced yourself yet, which is why you keep skipping posts that point out the contradiction.

"Do not touch anything unnecessarily. Beware of pretty girls in dance halls and parks who may be spies, as well as bicycles, revolvers, uniforms, arms, dead horses, and men lying on roads -- they are not there accidentally." -Soviet infantry manual,

Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#249 - 2016-04-14 22:29:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Lucas Kell
Shayla Etherodyne wrote:
Scams get exactly the same result as gambling houses. You are against scams?
Nope, I'm fine with in game mechanics being used. Try slinging up a scam using a website to show pretend wallet transactions from the API as proof that you're doubling isk though, see how long your first ban is.

Khanh'rhh wrote:
tl;dr - your defence of other third party addons is you "could" do them ingame, even though it is massively less efficient to do so, and no one does.

I am defending IWI with the same argument, you "could" do it in game. Therefore in your logic, it must be OK.

FYI this is pretty much QED because such gambling games existed in eve before the API came along and allowed them to move to 3rd party solutions.

You're arguing something can't exist that absolutely has in the past.
No, I'm arguing that if they are to exist they should only exist in game and not through third party applications which by your own admission make them faster at acquiring ISK. Honestly I'd be much happier if everything was in game so the playing field was the same across the board, but I can see why that would be an unrealistic prospect, so I'll settle for getting rid of the worst offending applications. IWI is one, EVE-O preview is another.

Ed: Dude, you are going ham on that strawman.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#250 - 2016-04-14 22:40:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Lucas Kell
Khanh'rhh wrote:
FWIW all eve trillionaires basically got there by leveraging 3rd party tools to process market data more rapidly than "normal gameplay" allows.
Definitely not all. Loads got here through patch speculation and plex flipping which requires no tools, a bunch through T2 BPO "lotteries", another bunch through large scale alliance thefts and scams, not to mention AT ship winners.

Khanh'rhh wrote:
This is why it's just so so silly that you think IWI is the one example of this. You are trying really really hard to create a definition where they're bad, and everything else that you want is OK, and it's so painfully transparent I don't think you have even convinced yourself yet, which is why you keep skipping posts that point out the contradiction.
I didn't say it's the one example I said it's the worst example, and it's one of the few that does it so directly. You're working with extremes, likely because it makes it easy for you to argue by taking my argument sticking it right at the end of the spectrum then hammering at it as if that's where I've been arguing.

As for it being so "painfully transparent" that I just want to keep stuff I want, it would seem strange to me that there's been two main targets on my list for a while, one of which is EVE-O preview I use every day.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Khanh'rhh
Sparkle Motion.
#251 - 2016-04-14 23:02:43 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
No, I'm arguing that if they are to exist they should only exist in game and not through third party applications which by your own admission make them faster at acquiring ISK. Honestly I'd be much happier if everything was in game so the playing field was the same across the board, but I can see why that would be an unrealistic prospect, so I'll settle for getting rid of the worst offending applications. IWI is one, EVE-O preview is another.

Ed: Dude, you are going ham on that strawman.

It's not a strawman, because it's not a false ******* argument. Other 3rd party tools that offer much larger advantages than what IWI have built exist. Have existed for years. Have been ruled OK. IWI [gambling sites in general] has been ruled OK.

Why then do you go on these silly little rants about "cheating" and how it can't be countered. The exact same situation applies in all other 3rd party tools. An alliance that tried to organise without a single out-of-game communications platform would have absolutely no chance against one that did.

IWI's ISK has not been a massive factor in this war. A good push to make it happen, perhaps, but it was largely inevitable and the results would have been the same.

"Do not touch anything unnecessarily. Beware of pretty girls in dance halls and parks who may be spies, as well as bicycles, revolvers, uniforms, arms, dead horses, and men lying on roads -- they are not there accidentally." -Soviet infantry manual,

Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#252 - 2016-04-15 00:07:15 UTC
Khanh'rhh wrote:
It's not a strawman, because it's not a false ******* argument. Other 3rd party tools that offer much larger advantages than what IWI have built exist. Have existed for years. Have been ruled OK. IWI [gambling sites in general] has been ruled OK.
It's a strawman because you're arguing against things I've not said. In your opinion maybe other applications give more benefit, but in reality no other third party application has done what IWI is still doing. There's no point in people even attempting to go against someone that has such a high and unassailable method of income pushed from an out of game tool. You disagree with that, fine, but that's your opinion vs mine, that's all. Not that up until last year ISBoxer was ruled as fine too.

Khanh'rhh wrote:
Why then do you go on these silly little rants about "cheating" and how it can't be countered. The exact same situation applies in all other 3rd party tools.
Sigh... No. You're trying to say "oh but voice comms are fine so making trillions of isk from a third party application is also fine".

Khanh'rhh wrote:
IWI's ISK has not been a massive factor in this war. A good push to make it happen, perhaps, but it was largely inevitable and the results would have been the same.
I didn't say it had, in fact I specifically stated that this war plays only a minro role in the shaping of my opinions. Learn to read.

Honestly though mate I'm not going to argue with you if you're keep firing out fallacies at a rate of knots. You have a valid counterpoint, great, I'd love to here it, but if this sheer desperation is the best you've got then I thank you for supporting my point.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Mario Putzo
#253 - 2016-04-15 03:55:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Mario Putzo
LOL

Guy IWI gets its ISK from players it is 100% generated through normal gameplay. IWI doesn't print ISK, it collects isk from player deposits. Like for real dude, the argument is ridiculous. If it violated CCP rules it would have been shut down...especially in the wake of Somer Blink, and an investigation for RMT.

Your argument is absolutely ridiculous, and border line ********. 6 months ago IWI wasn't a problem, your alliance was a stake holder for christ sake.

IWI generates 0 ISK. Every ISK is from a player who generated it in game through normal means.
Brokk Witgenstein
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#254 - 2016-04-15 04:54:14 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:
Market bots don't "generate" ISK. Should they be allowed?

No, but not because they don't generate ISK.
We don't want bots nor ISBoxers because we want to compete against players in this sandbox.

What are you even arguing? Stuff that generates ISK should be banned? Players DO generate ISK, shall we ban those then? At least put some finesse in your arguments, man.
Shae Tadaruwa
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#255 - 2016-04-15 05:00:10 UTC
Lol. Lucas head explosion again.

When you get your brain back in your head, use duct-tape to seal the hole back up.

Dracvlad - "...Your intel is free intel, all you do is pay for it..." && "...If you warp on the same path as a cloaked ship, you'll make a bookmark at exactly the same spot as the cloaky camper..."
sero Hita
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#256 - 2016-04-15 05:32:11 UTC
Lucas Kell wrote:


Honestly though mate I'm not going to argue with you if you're keep firing out fallacies at a rate of knots. You have a valid counterpoint, great, I'd love to here it, but if this sheer desperation is the best you've got then I thank you for supporting my point.


Pot, meet kettle.

"I'm all for pvp, don't get me wrong. I've ganked in Empire, blobed in low sec. Got T-shirts from every which-where.. But to be forced into a pvp confrontation that I didn't want is wrong ccp." RealFlisker
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#257 - 2016-04-15 07:03:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Lucas Kell
Mario Putzo wrote:
Guy IWI gets its ISK from players it is 100% generated through normal gameplay. IWI doesn't print ISK, it collects isk from player deposits
Nowhere on the EULA does it say the acquisition of items or currency has to be by generating it for it to be against the rules. It simply states that if a third party application allows you to aquire it at an accelerated rate to normal gameplay, it#s not allowed, and there's no what you can say that through normal gameplay with no site IWI would acquire isk at the same rate.

Mario Putzo wrote:
6 months ago IWI wasn't a problem
Sure it was, go check my post history.

Brokk Witgenstein wrote:
No, but not because they don't generate ISK.
We don't want bots nor ISBoxers because we want to compete against players in this sandbox.
That's exactly the same damn argument for IWI lol. I want to compete with players, not with a website host raking in trillions then picking and choosing who is allowed to play.

Brokk Witgenstein wrote:
What are you even arguing? Stuff that generates ISK should be banned? Players DO generate ISK, shall we ban those then? At least put some finesse in your arguments, man.
I'm arguing that what the rules say should be enforced. If the use of a third pary application allows you to acquire items or currency at an accelerated rate to a normal player playing without tools, then it gives an unfair advantage and shouldn't be allowed. Why is it that even though IWI does exactly that you feel it should be exempt from the rules?

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.
Brokk Witgenstein
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#258 - 2016-04-15 07:13:24 UTC
As I were browsing through the forums, I found another thread bogged down by the exact same poster on the exact same topic.

I wish to hear more about the frontline, the entosis operations, what's happening next and how all of this impacts EvE - not some endless whine about some barbarian Troll invasion with LOLtimers. Please.
sero Hita
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#259 - 2016-04-15 08:32:45 UTC  |  Edited by: sero Hita
Brokk Witgenstein wrote:
As I were browsing through the forums, I found another thread bogged down by the exact same poster on the exact same topic.

I wish to hear more about the frontline, the entosis operations, what's happening next and how all of this impacts EvE - not some endless whine about some barbarian Troll invasion with LOLtimers. Please.

That is his thing. He even got the "decline turning into RAPID" locked twice by derailing, leading to other people flaming him. many pages were purged from that threat. You have to acknowledge, that he is good at what he does.

"I'm all for pvp, don't get me wrong. I've ganked in Empire, blobed in low sec. Got T-shirts from every which-where.. But to be forced into a pvp confrontation that I didn't want is wrong ccp." RealFlisker
Lucas Kell
Solitude Trading
S.N.O.T.
#260 - 2016-04-15 09:37:43 UTC
sero Hita wrote:
That is his thing. He even got the "decline turning into RAPID" locked twice by derailing, leading to other people flaming him. many pages were purged from that threat. You have to acknowledge, that he is good at what he does.
Other people being incapable of having a simple discussion without attacking other posters or losing their temper has nowt to do with me.

The Indecisive Noob - EVE fan blog.

Wholesale Trading - The new bulk trading mailing list.