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Bump up difficulty for scanning sigs (not combat)
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Red zeon
State War Academy
Caldari State
#1 - 2016-04-09 10:45:06 UTC
with all implants and mods, i think we should either get new plexes thats as difficult as a 'yurt' mobile depo to scan
or bump up currect sites, atleast in null (highsec i can understand and lowsec, but with comfort of player owned systems in 00, it seems reasonable) to bump up the difficulty that a 10/10 would be as hard as a yurt depo to scan out with combats.

i think its just too easy, before there werent implants and mods, and a 10/10 was much harder to scan down, lets not make it too simple.
Red zeon
State War Academy
Caldari State
#2 - 2016-04-09 11:26:55 UTC
oh, and make it interesting, the "sphere" signature in map before you probe, should be like 64au or bigger to make it interesting

(also dont get me wrong, i like plexes, im not looking for a way to punish people who run plexes)
Red zeon
State War Academy
Caldari State
#3 - 2016-04-11 07:11:58 UTC
2days and no one started a flame war or protested or even whined.
This must be a good idea
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#4 - 2016-04-11 08:27:27 UTC
Red zeon wrote:
2days and no one started a flame war or protested or even whined.
This must be a good idea


Just about everyone thinks probing is too easy.
Elyia Suze Nagala
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#5 - 2016-04-11 14:29:54 UTC
Just because everyone does it, doesn't make it too easy. Just because everyone can make money doing it doesn't make it too easy either. HS gas, relic, and data sites generally suck, then there's sleeper sites and some combat anomolies that are okay. When you go into low sec, null and Wormholes profits go up but so does risk.
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
#6 - 2016-04-11 15:48:41 UTC
Elyia Suze Nagala wrote:
Just because everyone does it, doesn't make it too easy. Just because everyone can make money doing it doesn't make it too easy either. HS gas, relic, and data sites generally suck, then there's sleeper sites and some combat anomolies that are okay. When you go into low sec, null and Wormholes profits go up but so does risk.



I've been really good at probing for 9 years. It was originally difficult and mastering the art of combat probing made you a huge asset to any organization you belonged to. Many players just couldn't get their arms around it. Those that were good at it had high value.

Now, there is an actual youtube video of a guy eating his own boogers while scanning. It's gone from being a skill to being a task.


It's too easy. Too easy means there is no chance of failure which means that any moron can just use trial and error and eventually get the right answer which means it's too easy.



Did I mention it's too easy?
Ralph King-Griffin
New Eden Tech Support
#7 - 2016-04-11 16:08:15 UTC
Probe players instead, they are like sigs that you have to sneak up on and activly try to run away from you when they see you scanning them.
considerably less easy and potentially more valuable drops.

Murderers of Negotiable Motivations

=]|[=
Red zeon
State War Academy
Caldari State
#8 - 2016-04-11 16:38:20 UTC
Ralph King-Griffin wrote:
Probe players instead, they are like sigs that you have to sneak up on and activly try to run away from you when they see you scanning them.
considerably less easy and potentially more valuable drops.



huh my text disapeared when i klicked post.

well, i have hundreds of solo 00 kills, since i like hunting ratters. it seems like you think i enjoy the actuall probing phase of plexing.

but that is not the case.
its just not really what it should be in my opnion, currently wouldnt really make a huge difference if you could get wapable place by just directional.

i think that 00 plexes should be something that is somewhat hard,
i think it would be perfect if you actually had to have allmost max skills with good ships and best implants to get a 10/10 sig to 100%, and a 8/10 sig you would have to have lowgrade virtue set.
and 7/10 you could get without implants but with good skills and good ship/fit.

then it would mean something to be able to scan, and as Serendipity Lost meantioned, it would give a some value.
because, might aswell give specops/t3 the ability to warp to a sig without probes currently
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#9 - 2016-04-11 18:43:14 UTC
They didn't actually changed the difficulty of probing in the last round of changes. They just changed the skill weights along the way, but a max skilled character had just as good probe ability before as they do now.
Implants have been around for a vast time, and the modules aren't highly fitted either since rigs were already fitted.

So complaining that 'it's too easy' now means you don't understand the difference between a difficult task, and a bad UI. The previous iterations have all been bad UI that needed fighting and click spamming, but once you had fought the UI you were actually at exactly the same difficulty as you are now.
Lyra Gerie
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#10 - 2016-04-11 19:01:32 UTC
Honestly, exploration should be finding sites, maybe finding something that leads to a constellation or specific star system forcing you to actually explore as opposed to just scanning down sites.

These sites that your lead to could be more hacking or exploration rather than just combat site escalations or they could be things like colonies that need something and now it's kind of like a distribution mission. Maybe it's a wrecked drifter site or something who knows.

Basically exploration needs it's own whole expansion. I miss my deep space probes too =(
Red zeon
State War Academy
Caldari State
#11 - 2016-04-11 19:06:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Red zeon
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
They didn't actually changed the difficulty of probing in the last round of changes. They just changed the skill weights along the way, but a max skilled character had just as good probe ability before as they do now.
Implants have been around for a vast time, and the modules aren't highly fitted either since rigs were already fitted.

So complaining that 'it's too easy' now means you don't understand the difference between a difficult task, and a bad UI. The previous iterations have all been bad UI that needed fighting and click spamming, but once you had fought the UI you were actually at exactly the same difficulty as you are now.



hehe, you are cute.
there was a time when the probe mechanics was not "moving probes in a window" also there was a time before the virtue implants, and mods that increase probe strength..

if you played before when you had to scan for 5min and hope you get a hit on a signal :P you would know what im talking about.


EDIT; here is the old mechanic :P http://go-dl1.eve-files.com/media/0811/EVE_Online_Exploration_Guide.pdf
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#12 - 2016-04-11 19:53:56 UTC
Red zeon wrote:

hehe, you are cute.
there was a time when the probe mechanics was not "moving probes in a window" also there was a time before the virtue implants, and mods that increase probe strength..

if you played before when you had to scan for 5min and hope you get a hit on a signal :P you would know what im talking about.


EDIT; here is the old mechanic :P http://go-dl1.eve-files.com/media/0811/EVE_Online_Exploration_Guide.pdf

I'm familiar with that. Doesn't mean it was actually 'difficult'. It was just a UI fight. With built in compulsory time gates and micromanagement that just required more clicking. It's not difficulty to pick a scan probe based on accuracy.
Not to mention that this whine belonged oh.... about 5 years ago when the system was revamped to the current scan/combat system, not now trying to pretend that it's a recent change.
Red zeon
State War Academy
Caldari State
#13 - 2016-04-11 20:09:07 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Red zeon wrote:

hehe, you are cute.
there was a time when the probe mechanics was not "moving probes in a window" also there was a time before the virtue implants, and mods that increase probe strength..

if you played before when you had to scan for 5min and hope you get a hit on a signal :P you would know what im talking about.


EDIT; here is the old mechanic :P http://go-dl1.eve-files.com/media/0811/EVE_Online_Exploration_Guide.pdf

I'm familiar with that. Doesn't mean it was actually 'difficult'. It was just a UI fight. With built in compulsory time gates and micromanagement that just required more clicking. It's not difficulty to pick a scan probe based on accuracy.
Not to mention that this whine belonged oh.... about 5 years ago when the system was revamped to the current scan/combat system, not now trying to pretend that it's a recent change.



The F? where did i even say its a recent change? im just saying its a aspect of a game (wich i use frequently) wich think its way too easy for what i feel is the balanced difficulty.
and its not whining that i say it is too easy for me, and for everyone else, ecept you who appearenly seem its difficult, since you do give that impression, and or you think its also very very easy, but just likes to argue
FT Diomedes
The Graduates
#14 - 2016-04-11 22:51:52 UTC
Red zeon wrote:
with all implants and mods, i think we should either get new plexes thats as difficult as a 'yurt' mobile depo to scan
or bump up currect sites, atleast in null (highsec i can understand and lowsec, but with comfort of player owned systems in 00, it seems reasonable) to bump up the difficulty that a 10/10 would be as hard as a yurt depo to scan out with combats.

i think its just too easy, before there werent implants and mods, and a 10/10 was much harder to scan down, lets not make it too simple.


Well, I agree with you, but you would also have to lower the rate of escalations from combat anomalies. They spawn far too often and it has totally crushed the prices for most modules.

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#15 - 2016-04-12 06:57:52 UTC
Elyia Suze Nagala wrote:
Just because everyone does it, doesn't make it too easy.


Slapping a probe launcher on a Megathron and being able to get perfect hit to an on grid target in seconds is why it's too easy. This is why snipe fleets have not been a thing for years.
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
#16 - 2016-04-12 12:02:05 UTC
All banter aside. It's too easy. Here's the proof.

Scanning is now a TASK, not a SKILL. There is no chance of failure. Being bad (skill wise, SP wise or IQ wise) only means more time to complete the TASK.

Scanning used to be an actual SKILL. If you couldn't understand it you couldn't do it. Don't get me wrong, I'm not against dumb or lazy people - a lot of them are really cool. It's just sad to see CCP boil a beautiful complex and yes DIFFICULT game down to the lowest common denominator. It's on its way to losing its hard edge. Dumbing down scanning is a symptom - not the problem.
Donnachadh
United Allegiance of Undesirables
#17 - 2016-04-12 14:07:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Donnachadh
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
I'm familiar with that. Doesn't mean it was actually 'difficult'. It was just a UI fight. With built in compulsory time gates and micromanagement that just required more clicking.

You are so out of touch I hardly know where to begin.
While there was a fair degree of fight with the UI in times past there was also significantly more difficulty in locking those things you found. I have a dedicated scan character with +10 implants and best equipment and even in high sec that character got a lot of use getting that 100% lock on sites others would find but could not lock because skills / equipment / implants. On the other hand today that character and his expensive implants and ship / equipment rarely get used because there is no need. Most of the high sec site were converted to easy mode point and click no scanning required. Even in low and nul I spend most of my scanning time using cheap disposable T1 ships / equipment and a low skills character with no implants because there is no reason to risk the better character and his equipment / implants.

In the end I agree with the OP it is time for CCP to add a difficulty progression to scanning not unlike the model used for missions. Sites that require more skills and better equipment to lock but they are more difficulty once you get to them and offer higher rewards as a result.
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#18 - 2016-04-12 14:31:01 UTC
Donnachadh wrote:
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
I'm familiar with that. Doesn't mean it was actually 'difficult'. It was just a UI fight. With built in compulsory time gates and micromanagement that just required more clicking.

You are so out of touch I hardly know where to begin.
While there was a fair degree of fight with the UI in times past there was also significantly more difficulty in locking those things you found. I have a dedicated scan character with +10 implants and best equipment and even in high sec that character got a lot of use getting that 100% lock on sites others would find but could not lock because skills / equipment / implants. On the other hand today that character and his expensive implants and ship / equipment rarely get used because there is no need. Most of the high sec site were converted to easy mode point and click no scanning required. Even in low and nul I spend most of my scanning time using cheap disposable T1 ships / equipment and a low skills character with no implants because there is no reason to risk the better character and his equipment / implants.

In the end I agree with the OP it is time for CCP to add a difficulty progression to scanning not unlike the model used for missions. Sites that require more skills and better equipment to lock but they are more difficulty once you get to them and offer higher rewards as a result.


The sigs of stuff or the strength of probes could be toned down to return some of the SP/equipement requirement but it will forever be somewhat easier to get stuff/ship scanned since the interface is no longer a mess.

Lowering the strength of probes is probably the easy way if CCP want to make it harder for everything since the opposite means every ships need to be somewhat changed...
Serendipity Lost
Repo Industries
#19 - 2016-04-12 15:36:14 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Elyia Suze Nagala wrote:
Just because everyone does it, doesn't make it too easy.


Slapping a probe launcher on a Megathron and being able to get perfect hit to an on grid target in seconds is why it's too easy. This is why snipe fleets have not been a thing for years.



And here I thought it was because those fleets were boring and uninteresting. I'd say w/ the new command dessy and MJD the whole sniper fleet thing is now a part of history. There really isn't an advantage to longer range/lower damage fleets ever again. Staying inside the 150km 'no warp to' range and pummeling the other fleet just doesn't have the meaning it used to.

If you folks need some help developing doctrines (now that n+1 isn't in your arsenal) I have a few ideas that may help you Shocked
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#20 - 2016-04-14 13:49:19 UTC
Serendipity Lost wrote:
baltec1 wrote:
Elyia Suze Nagala wrote:
Just because everyone does it, doesn't make it too easy.


Slapping a probe launcher on a Megathron and being able to get perfect hit to an on grid target in seconds is why it's too easy. This is why snipe fleets have not been a thing for years.



And here I thought it was because those fleets were boring and uninteresting. I'd say w/ the new command dessy and MJD the whole sniper fleet thing is now a part of history. There really isn't an advantage to longer range/lower damage fleets ever again. Staying inside the 150km 'no warp to' range and pummeling the other fleet just doesn't have the meaning it used to.

If you folks need some help developing doctrines (now that n+1 isn't in your arsenal) I have a few ideas that may help you Shocked


At this point I don't it matters what ships we bring to this war😂