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Jeremiah Saken
The Fall of Leviathan
#1401 - 2016-04-13 11:41:18 UTC
Malcanis wrote:

It's such a crappy low-effort change that I wouldn't be surprised if it was done in 3 days.

They need to hire more EA leftovers.
I mean seriously why Rise is taking over such project like this. He's a pvper there are no modules/hull left to be balanced?

First log in last weekend. How do I feel? Like this whole game was "work in progress". Try beta this..., beta that...My UI reseted somehow. 30 mintues of clicking on boxes... I feel Iike I had few years brake not 3 months. CCP think they got finished product they just need to sell it now. Wrong. There is no coherent vision how to connect huge changes with acquaring new players imo.

There will be spike on new players coming with citadels, you want to hook them by dailies Rise?

"I am tormented with an everlasting itch for things remote. I love to sail forbidden seas..." - Herman Melville
Sunset Airguitar
Doomheim
#1402 - 2016-04-13 11:47:03 UTC
Don't do this! Think of all the people with no self control who will be compelled to log in every day to do something they hate Cry
Aydan Talvanen
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#1403 - 2016-04-13 11:48:03 UTC
Jeremiah Saken wrote:
There will be spike on new players coming with citadels, you want to hook them by dailies Rise?


God... this is one of the most absurd changes I've ever seen in this game.
Sean Crees
Sean's Safe Haven
#1404 - 2016-04-13 11:50:47 UTC
Cynical-Saint Sunji wrote:
I think your goal would be better achieved if there was an SP rate boost any time you have a Limited Engagement Timer.

It is a better indicator of someone creating content. And the more content they create, the more SP they gain.

It also doesn't discourage the players that are bad at it. You may get blown up every time you engage someone, but you gain SP because you are at least out creating content.


How about any kind of timer, including Non-Capsuleer Log-Off Timer?

I actually kind of like the idea of promoting activity in Eve, but lets not limit it to only 1 type of game play.
Lugh Crow-Slave
#1405 - 2016-04-13 11:51:01 UTC
Sunset Airguitar wrote:
Don't do this! Think of all the people with no self control who will be compelled to log in every day to do something they hate Cry



... I think that is exactly the type they are not only thinking of but directly targeting

BLOPS Hauler
The 16.8km Bubble
Lugh Crow-Slave
#1406 - 2016-04-13 11:52:08 UTC
Sean Crees wrote:
Cynical-Saint Sunji wrote:
I think your goal would be better achieved if there was an SP rate boost any time you have a Limited Engagement Timer.

It is a better indicator of someone creating content. And the more content they create, the more SP they gain.

It also doesn't discourage the players that are bad at it. You may get blown up every time you engage someone, but you gain SP because you are at least out creating content.


How about any kind of timer, including Non-Capsuleer Log-Off Timer?

I actually kind of like the idea of promoting activity in Eve, but lets not limit it to only 1 type of game play.


Even timers limit it

How about we promote gameplay by adding more things to do

BLOPS Hauler
The 16.8km Bubble
Aydan Talvanen
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#1407 - 2016-04-13 11:53:18 UTC
Cynical-Saint Sunji wrote:
I think your goal would be better achieved if there was an SP rate boost any time you have a Limited Engagement Timer.

It is a better indicator of someone creating content. And the more content they create, the more SP they gain.

It also doesn't discourage the players that are bad at it. You may get blown up every time you engage someone, but you gain SP because you are at least out creating content.


EXACTLY. Rich people can make their training faster with money, there's NOTHING wrong to give plebs a little something. BUT DAILIES, Rise? This is just unacceptable.
Vol Arm'OOO
Central Co-Prosperity Union
#1408 - 2016-04-13 12:09:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Vol Arm'OOO
I don't get it. Ccp just added a significant sp sink with skill extractors. Given aging vets in this game a sp sink was sorely needed. Why in the world would ccp now seek to inject more sp into the game? It's a terrible idea for the inflationary effect it has on sp alone. That it adds an experience grind to a game that has long prided itself on not having one is just as bad. If this woe begotten idea must be implemented it should be limited to low sp characters as a means of helping newbees catch up. Hopefully that will limit the damage from too much free sp being injected into the game.

I don't play, I just fourm warrior.
Jack Growler
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#1409 - 2016-04-13 12:12:41 UTC
Cynical-Saint Sunji wrote:
I think your goal would be better achieved if there was an SP rate boost any time you have a Limited Engagement Timer.

It is a better indicator of someone creating content. And the more content they create, the more SP they gain.

It also doesn't discourage the players that are bad at it. You may get blown up every time you engage someone, but you gain SP because you are at least out creating content.


Terrible idea. People shooting their alts all day. The content is real.
Anize Oramara
WarpTooZero
#1410 - 2016-04-13 12:31:56 UTC
The salt is real. It's funny though because after having read mos tof the complaints, absolutely none of them hold any water in the current implementation of Eve. Allow me to explain.

You have Joe, he has an alt account that he PLEXes. This account has 3 characters, two of them are Cyno Alts or Trading alts or [instert usefull alt here] so Joe is getting worth out of his PLEX. The 3rd character is not in fact used for anything other than gaining SP, extracting the SP and selling the injectors for isk. He more or less manages to fund this account by doing that. This SP also, by the way, 'appears out of thin air' more or less, requiring a plex to generate them.

Now you have Bob. Bob runs incursions/missions/null rats/[inster isk making activity here]. He uses that ISK that he grinds by spending time in game to buy Joe's skill injectors.

Now explain to me how SP that is being generated out of thin air (Requiring a Plex) and then being traded for isk is different to SP that is generated by killing an NPC ever 22h (requiring a paid account) are different form each other? Even if you switch out the SP reward form the dailies to ISK, how is it any different to buy SP (farmed with an SP alt) with that isk? It's not.

See, with SP extractors and injectors you can justify this feature. Those who advocate(d) for, or were indifferent to, Injectors but are now kicking up against daily SP opportunities unfortunately don't have any ground to stand on. It's that slippery slope people were talking about back when SP injectors were first talked about.

That said, I'm happy to sit back and see if this will grow eve, kill it, change the playerbase/demographic forever or have no real effect whatsoever. I just don't have any investment in the outcome at all and will happily enjoy the ride.

A guide (Google Doc) to Hi-Sec blitzing and breaking the 200mill ISK/H barrier v1.2.3
Terranid Meester
Tactical Assault and Recon Unit
#1411 - 2016-04-13 12:32:11 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
Another small update:

Thanks to feedback we see that it would improve the experience quite a lot minimize the amount of characters available for this reward so we are going to limit the reward to the first character completing the daily task on each account.

Thanks


'while we make sure there is one single mechanism that brings new skillpoints in to the system – training.' From your companies skill injectors blog. What I want to know is why CCP lied to us? I guess CCP's words are worth null. Is that the case Rise?

Getting SP from killing npc's still breaks the premise of the sandbox in that people don't have to knowingly grind to benefit and breaks the immersion of eve.
Tabyll Altol
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#1412 - 2016-04-13 12:57:58 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
Hi

I'm here to give you guys a heads up that sometime early next week a small daily activity reward feature will be hitting Singularity and will hopefully be making its way to TQ sometime just after Citadel.

As you guys surely know, having people in game and in space is great and we want to start promoting and rewarding activity a little more directly. The version of the feature we are planning to deploy first will be a simple 10,000 skill point reward that a character will receive the first time they kill an NPC ship every 22 hours (limited one character per account per day, chosen based on which character completes the task first). The skillpoints will go into your unallocated pool to be used however you like.

You will find the status of your daily skill boost in the Opportunities info panel and you will also receive notifications to let you know when it becomes available.

That's it for now. If this goes well we hope to expand in several ways, but more on that later!

Feedback appreciate as always,
CCP Rise for Team Size Matters

Responding to feedback


Wrong date for aprils fool.

But seriously a good thing in eve was that you have to wait some time to get in some new ships and everybody skills at the same speed. First there comes the skill injector then this comes. The next thing would be you get SP for killing every NPC or some special NPC`s with a dimishing return. Don´t ruin what makes Eve unique.

-1
Tabyll Altol
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#1413 - 2016-04-13 13:12:43 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
Okay, let's see if I can provide some context for our decision to add daily opportunities to eve and maybe answer some of your bigger questions.

Why Dailies?
So first lets talk a little history. EVE had a daily logon incentive for most of it's existence: the 24 hour skill queue limit. Back in Phoebe, we removed those limitations. Now, at the time, we were of two minds internally. We didn't like the experience around being punished for not logging in to update your queue, but also knew that some of those logins might be leading to meaningful gameplay and we shouldn't lightly let go of them. We leaned to the side of a better experience and removed the limitations, hoping that the logins we were generating were fairly empty, rarely leading to more actual activity in the universe. Well, it turns out we were wrong about that. Now, with before and after data we can see that making it into the client is a huge step towards real activity, even if the reason for logging in in the first place seems artificial. So this leads us to where we are now, attempting to find ways to create more logins that also don't feel like such a punishment as the skill queue limitations did. This may not turn out to be the perfect alternative but that's what we're looking for.

Why Skillpoints?
There's been a lot of feedback here that this kind of feature would be acceptable if the rewards were more monetary, either LP or ISK or something similar. There's a few reasons that doesn't really work and we feel pulled towards SP. I think the biggest one is that many people simply won't be motivated by LP or ISK, especially in the amounts we would be restricted to giving. SP simply has higher demand across more playstyles and player ages and that just makes it a more powerful incentive. Second big reason that we actually tried designs using item and ISK rewards and it quickly creates a lot of economic imbalances. Any time we are giving something away without much activity cost we are heavily sabotaging someone's gameplay. Whether it's because of devaluing LP, causing major inflation, or crashing item markets, it's all bad for you guys so we would rather avoid it.

Why so lazy?
Lots of feedback about the feature having such a minimalist implementation. First, let me clear up some confusion by saying that this feature has no relationship with the 'Tribute' system that was described last year at EVE Vegas. That feature has actually gone down a path more focused on goal setting and long term engagement than daily activity and so the daily part was broken off and given to our team separately. With that in mind, we are trying to find the right mix of activity and accessibility. We want you to be able to collect this reward during a lunch break or a 10 minute period where your kids are in timeout but also want to make sure there's some real gameplay associated with it. We think getting to a belt or gate for an NPC is about the right mix and that's why we've landed with this. That said, we've also deliberately tried to keep it simple so that we can deploy fast and adjust based on how it gets used. We are absolutely open to expanding the list of activities in the future and imagined that as one of the most likely first iterations. Small sidenote on activities: many of you mentioned PVP, remember that this is always problematic because the most effective way to PVP for rewards is just kill your own alt, which isn't very fun or interesting.

New players
Seeing a lot of talk about this feature in the context of new players and I can just say that this is not a new player targeted feature. We hope it's good for new players as well but for the feature to be successful it needs to be relevant to everyone.

Wow CCP
And finally the traditional MMO comparisons. While I found most of these comments to be the most entertaining, it's pretty absurd to think that any feature which can be found in a traditional MMO appearing in EVE means we are headed down the road to battlegrounds and dragon killing. If you look at Citadel feature list you should not have any concerns about our commitment to the EVE sandbox and the hardcore nature of our game.

Hope some of this helps. We are taking your feedback seriously and if we don't make any changes before release we will absolutely be following up shortly after release with changes based on feedback and behavior.


And how about still no. If people want SP --> they should buy injectors (and yes this was a bad idea too, but there was not crafted SP i was just transfered which was important for CCP (at this time)).

I don´t wanna be forced to do some things just to stay on the same skill speed as other pilots. The implants are a aceptabel evil but no more extra sp gain or just make it for all the same same base speed and everybody gets the same 10k /day unlocated.

-1
Aydan Talvanen
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#1414 - 2016-04-13 13:19:22 UTC
Aaaannnd the monstrosity is already on Singularity. What a horrible day to wake up to.

http://i.imgur.com/v3tZxkN.png
Indahmawar Fazmarai
#1415 - 2016-04-13 13:38:05 UTC
Mizhir wrote:
Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:
Tippia wrote:
(...)

Indahmawar Fazmarai wrote:
He already explained. The issue is the people who stopped login in daily because of the extended skill queue. Weekly rewards would do nothing to sort the issue.

His explanation is nonsensical. The extended skill queue did not stop people from logging in daily, because it never required you to do so to begin with. The extended skill queue meant that people could stuff several weeks or months of skills into the queue, as opposed to maybe 30 days tops. If it had been a daily requirement to update your skill queue, the dip he's talking about should have manifested when the queue was first implemented, not 7 years later.

He can claim otherwise until he's blue in the face, but that's just a fact of how the skill queue worked. He's going to have to come up with something far more clever if he want to argue against reality. His explanation is not a reason not to make it a weekly (or even monthly) tally; it's a pisspoor attempt at hiding the intent of the change: forcing people to log in more often than they've done since 2008.(...)


Well, I've been discussing a lot the steep decline in PCU. My main argument being (and is) that most people pay CCP for the PvE, PvE is a short career with poor quality and that kills population faster than anything else in the game, thus in the last years people who start playing are outnumbered by the continued pressure of quitting PvErs. That drives PCU down despite all of CCP's increasingly desperate efforts to improve PvP, quality of life and anything but PvE as PvErs want it.

In this context, one of the usual counter-arguments is that multiple character training and long skillqueues are to blame for PCU going down.

So when CCP comes and tells us that unlimited skillqueues have taken a toll on server population after Phoebe, I am more or less willing to take their word for it. It goes a bit against my main argument but makes sense.

We may discuss whether it's bullshit or don't, but there's one deeper layer into it: lower PCU (which is real) is toxic to EVE and CCP. Enough toxic to lead CCP into taking a controversial step to bribe players into becoming/providing content by just loggin in and being exposed to the sandbox.

As someone who would profit from this measure (pennies from heaven just for playing my way), I am perfectly OK with it. To me, it's a nice bribe to counter the desperate stupidity of higher NPC taxes in the futile attempts to make Citadels into acceptable trade hubs.


How is Dailies gonna fix this? If PVEers are quitting because of burnout from PVE then dailies wouldn't make PVE any more interesting. Instead they will most lkely just log in a do dailies and then log out afterwards until they burn out of that as well which in the end may extend their activity for 1-2 weeks but still wouldn't make them return to the game. I have been in many games where I slowly drifted into the 'just do dailies and then log out' cycle as I was burning out of the game and it honestly leaves a rather negative experiance of the game.


Dailies are a fix to "people don't log for skill queue and that's bad". They're a small bribe and probably will only benefit people who would be killing that NPC anyway -true PvErs.

The PvE side of dwindling PCU is just kinda hopeless. Supposedly we should see a Devblog on it next month by CCP Affinitty, but based on what she shared at EVE Vegas, CCP's plans for PvE are half a million miles out of outch with reality, probably by lack of actually engaging PvErs and rather listening to the CSM, reddit, the forums, 99% of blogs and anyone who opens his mouth on what do PvErs "want". Not to mention that plans for PvE are for a span of 2 or 3 years.

As I said, this daily bribe is like buying a sticker for the coffin of the victim after he spent three days waiting at the ER room. It is appreciated but it's been stated that it's not about PvErs.
Terrorfrodo
Interbus Universal
#1416 - 2016-04-13 13:53:53 UTC
I dont know why everyone is still bashing PvE so much, CCP has tried to make it better and not without success. Doing sites in a Marauder is pretty engaging and comes quite close to being fun if you dont do it all the time.

It can be positively thrilling if you sit with 5b worth of marauders in a c5 anomaly and accidentally trigger 2 battleship waves at once. I overloaded both reppers and just barely survived in deep structure, with burning modules. It almost felt like pvp :)

.
Aydan Talvanen
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#1417 - 2016-04-13 14:06:24 UTC
Lavayar
Haidamaky
UA Fleets
#1418 - 2016-04-13 14:10:54 UTC
Sad Day For EvE
Ravcharas
Infinite Point
Pandemic Horde
#1419 - 2016-04-13 14:11:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Ravcharas
Last time the PCU were at today's level was what, 07-08? They "fixed" that by releasing content that excited players, like t2 ships and FW and then came Apocrypha which gave the entire game a boost.

I mean, hell, if you really wanted to juice the numbers, release a mobile app already. We've had smartphones for nearly a decade, the jury is in; the hype is real.
Lan Wang
Princess Aiko Hold My Hand
Safety. Net
#1420 - 2016-04-13 14:14:55 UTC
Ravcharas wrote:
Last time the PCU were at today's level was what, 07-08? They "fixed" that by releasing content that excited players, like t2 ships and FW and then came Apocrypha which gave the entire game a boost.

I mean, hell, if you really wanted to juice the numbers, release a mobile app already. We've had smartphones for nearly a decade, the jury is in; the hype is real.


smartphone app would certainly do all kinds of wonders for login numbers

Domination Nephilim - Angel Cartel

Calm down miner. As you pointed out, people think they can get away with stuff they would not in rl... Like for example illegal mining... - Ima Wreckyou*