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Citadel Build Costs

First post
Author
Retep Ecnirp
Nameless Minions
GaNg BaNg TeAm
#1 - 2016-04-12 14:28:29 UTC
So maybe I have missed the thread somewhere in here but.

When Citadels were originally announced the build costs were targeted at:
700mil
7Bil
70bil
For the Hulls.

Now looking at current market costs with the Blue prints released on Singularity they are averaging out almost 3 times that.
with the Keepstar coming in around 200bil for the Hull. With Similar mark ups on the other hulls as well.

So I looked around for the answer to the increase in price but I cant find anything stating why it happened. I know the Market increases on PI materials plays a decent part but I also see the Component costs on the Citadel Blueprint it self was doubled from the original number. Lastly I know the numbers are finalized but the way it looks right now, Its putting even the smallest of citadels outside the reasonable range for many Corps, with the added fact they can(and will) be destroyed.

Im just looking for an answer as to why the increase, Not saying its not needed, but it does make my favorite part of recent updates suddenly look not so great.

OverlordY
Interspan
#2 - 2016-04-12 21:45:16 UTC
Hmmm yes they had said the small was meant to be like a current POS.. Thus having the 700 ish mill price tag..
Lugh Crow-Slave
#3 - 2016-04-12 22:16:36 UTC
to be fair on the keepstar they did say they wanted to raise it up to about 100-150b
Retep Ecnirp
Nameless Minions
GaNg BaNg TeAm
#4 - 2016-04-12 22:24:39 UTC
100-150 is reasonable I agree. 200bil on the Hull with Max ME is not considering the rigs are also priced at over 100bil each as well.
Lugh Crow-Slave
#5 - 2016-04-13 03:23:20 UTC
Retep Ecnirp wrote:
100-150 is reasonable I agree. 200bil on the Hull with Max ME is not considering the rigs are also priced at over 100bil each as well.



are you using current prices on TQ or prices on TQ when the build cost was announced as since they were announced the mats needed to build them have had a price spike as everyone is trying to profit off them on release
CCP Claymore
C C P
C C P Alliance
#6 - 2016-04-13 09:19:28 UTC
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
Retep Ecnirp wrote:
100-150 is reasonable I agree. 200bil on the Hull with Max ME is not considering the rigs are also priced at over 100bil each as well.



are you using current prices on TQ or prices on TQ when the build cost was announced as since they were announced the mats needed to build them have had a price spike as everyone is trying to profit off them on release


Basically what this guy says.

The price will eventually settle out, but in typical EVE fashion we announced the build requirements and the market went wild!

Quality Assurance Analyst Team Psycho Sisters

Retep Ecnirp
Nameless Minions
GaNg BaNg TeAm
#7 - 2016-04-13 13:04:55 UTC
The market I do understand. Why doubling the number of components from then as well?
From this I see even when the market comes back down, the costs will still be 140 for the Hull plus another 50-100 for the Fittings. Its just a dramatic difference from anything else Ive seen. Rigs were announced at Eve Vegas of being about 20-25bil each, they are currently well over 100.

The numbers just dont add up from intended prices even with the market fluctuations.
Manssell
OmiHyperMultiNationalDrunksConglomerate
#8 - 2016-04-13 15:08:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Manssell
OverlordY wrote:
Hmmm yes they had said the small was meant to be like a current POS.. Thus having the 700 ish mill price tag..


Even with that being the correct 'market adjusted' price. That's still leaving a rather large hole in the current lineup, as compared to current POS's. Right now a small POS can get a new player/smaller group/individual in one with some functionality for about 250-300 mil. Yes, POS's will be here for a while, but they do plan on them going away. So unless some other new deployables are coming out CCP seems to be raising the barrier to structure ownership for players quite considerably with this new path.
Shalmon Aliatus
Bluestar Enterprises
The Craftsmen
#9 - 2016-04-13 15:18:31 UTC
Retep Ecnirp wrote:
The market I do understand. Why doubling the number of components from then as well?
From this I see even when the market comes back down, the costs will still be 140 for the Hull plus another 50-100 for the Fittings. Its just a dramatic difference from anything else Ive seen. Rigs were announced at Eve Vegas of being about 20-25bil each, they are currently well over 100.

The numbers just dont add up from intended prices even with the market fluctuations.


Exactly.

CCP Claymore, if you double the requirements that you told us in the devblog, you can't blame it 100% on the market. This is not how those things work. Lol
Lugh Crow-Slave
#10 - 2016-04-13 16:41:24 UTC
Manssell wrote:
OverlordY wrote:
Hmmm yes they had said the small was meant to be like a current POS.. Thus having the 700 ish mill price tag..


Even with that being the correct 'market adjusted' price. That's still leaving a rather large hole in the current lineup, as compared to current POS's. Right now a small POS can get a new player/smaller group/individual in one with some functionality for about 250-300 mil. Yes, POS's will be here for a while, but they do plan on them going away. So unless some other new deployables are coming out CCP seems to be raising the barrier to structure ownership for players quite considerably with this new path.



you know there is a hole bunch of new ones coming out right and citadels are supposed to be one of if not the most expensive do to their role of asset security?


as for the claims about them doubling the requirements they already made a forum post talking about how they screwed up the one in the dev blog but the price is still the same

they put less in the dev blod then they had planned
violator2k5
Crescent Nova
#11 - 2016-04-13 17:42:39 UTC
CCP Claymore wrote:
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
Retep Ecnirp wrote:
100-150 is reasonable I agree. 200bil on the Hull with Max ME is not considering the rigs are also priced at over 100bil each as well.



are you using current prices on TQ or prices on TQ when the build cost was announced as since they were announced the mats needed to build them have had a price spike as everyone is trying to profit off them on release


Basically what this guy says.

The price will eventually settle out, but in typical EVE fashion we announced the build requirements and the market went wild!



when doesnt it? everytime theres a major patch this always happens and its pretty much to be expected. its probably going to be roughly 2-3 months before prices go back to normal, maybe even less when the hype about citadels settles down.
Retep Ecnirp
Nameless Minions
GaNg BaNg TeAm
#12 - 2016-04-13 21:37:13 UTC
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:



you know there is a hole bunch of new ones coming out right and citadels are supposed to be one of if not the most expensive do to their role of asset security?


as for the claims about them doubling the requirements they already made a forum post talking about how they screwed up the one in the dev blog but the price is still the same

they put less in the dev blod then they had planned


Can you link this post showing this? I cant find it anywhere?

Quote:
when doesnt it? everytime theres a major patch this always happens and its pretty much to be expected. its probably going to be roughly 2-3 months before prices go back to normal, maybe even less when the hype about citadels settles down.


I really do understand about market changes... I'm not going to dispute that fact even though this is the single largest addition to PI materials? (How would that not have a market impact unless they are making materials easier to get).

Even using the old prices on the market your still talking double the building materials according to Blue prints on SiSi. That means at the very minimum double the price from what the Devblog states they were aiming for, and 5 times the price of what Eve Vegas said rigs would cost.
Lugh Crow-Slave
#13 - 2016-04-14 06:46:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Lugh Crow-Slave
having trouble finding it but if you do the math yourself you see that the one showing materials and the one showing components give vastly different numbers. i'll keep looking (it was a one off post by ccp) and edit this if i find it


EDIT

found it

post image
Udonor
Doomheim
#14 - 2016-04-16 11:56:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Udonor
TLDR but from scanning topic...

CCP is trying to reverse over 10 years of POS population explosion.
Also truthfully building or losing a POS is no big deal for all but the smallest or most disorganized corps.
The new Citadel prices are obviously designed to require a renewed level of community involvement and risk once more.
Citadels are obviously going to be much more central to system battles due to the required capital investment. Placement could make for exciting sov gambles in null. Planets and moons won't always interfere with multiple fleet manuevers.

A whole new opportunity to have reason to feel a sense of accomplishment. Or since EVE is sandbox maybe you tragically fail. The possibility to fail to reach a certain level of accomplishment is what makes EVE great.

If you are really that good at EVE -- and not just copying what everyone else worked out long ago...
you will be able to find your place again with system Citadels. But you might have to stretch those long unused mental gaming muscles again. You might struggle again as a corp or alliance rather than just complacently sitting on your fat ass lording it over newbies and loners.

IMHO too many EVE players need to grow up. After 13 years EVE has been losing its edge. You complain about that then complain about changes. CCP is just trying to make the game exciting again with the big changes over the last year or so. That does not mean preserving the special niche economics and play style that long time corps and players have previously held. Change happens.

Not all change is perfect on the first pass through. Good news after Citadels release and then capital revamp, the first pass will be over. CCP can then begin serious polishing on the squeaker wheels and cogs of game mechanics like entosis.

Off topic example
(I say make those entosis drones so as not to bore entosis pilots to death. Let them fight but on a short leash. PS CCP that does mean advantage is more by ship type than size and the strongest entosis users carriers would hold a limited advantage over subcap players. And that entosis drone use would still severely affect the combat utility of the strongest entosis drone users -- but flexible user options as to commitment. )
Udonor
Doomheim
#15 - 2016-04-16 12:56:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Udonor
Again I admit to being too lazy to spend the hours needed to read the whole thread and I only know a little about moon mining BUT...


it does seem to me that Citadel costs are unlikely to go down. In fact it seems to me that Citadels will tend to raise the price of all goods that require a significant amount of moon mats.

Going by hearsay that in past you could start moon mining for as little as 2B POS...maybe not well but you could start defraying cost and selling raw stuff.


So just observing that the x100 expected cost over POS will tend to prevent rapid replacement of the thousands of POS that are mining moon mats. Which will mean dramatic fall in supply etc. Possibly a feedback cycle of ever increasing cost for a while.


Looking forward to the return of T1 ships as the normal standard for almost all corps not just noobs and twice a month players.
Lugh Crow-Slave
#16 - 2016-04-16 13:19:33 UTC
Udonor wrote:
Again I admit to being too lazy to spend the hours needed to read the whole thread and I only know a little about moon mining BUT...


it does seem to me that Citadel costs are unlikely to go down. In fact it seems to me that Citadels will tend to raise the price of all goods that require a significant amount of moon mats.

Going by hearsay that in past you could start moon mining for as little as 2B POS...maybe not well but you could start defraying cost and selling raw stuff.


So just observing that the x100 expected cost over POS will tend to prevent rapid replacement of the thousands of POS that are mining moon mats. Which will mean dramatic fall in supply etc. Possibly a feedback cycle of ever increasing cost for a while.


Looking forward to the return of T1 ships as the normal standard for almost all corps not just noobs and twice a month players.



... you. .. you do understand that citadels are not replacing pos' right? And that citadels can't even mine moons
RainReaper
RRN Industries
#17 - 2016-04-17 13:41:32 UTC
CCP Claymore wrote:
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
Retep Ecnirp wrote:
100-150 is reasonable I agree. 200bil on the Hull with Max ME is not considering the rigs are also priced at over 100bil each as well.



are you using current prices on TQ or prices on TQ when the build cost was announced as since they were announced the mats needed to build them have had a price spike as everyone is trying to profit off them on release


Basically what this guy says.

The price will eventually settle out, but in typical EVE fashion we announced the build requirements and the market went wild!


Its a good thing that I already ahve built my astrahus structure components then :p