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Inertia Amplifier

Author
mentlegen Aucie
Black Hand Highlanders
#1 - 2016-04-11 20:58:00 UTC
High Sec Ganking is a perfectly legitimate game mechanic, but currently a player with a bump machariel can hold someone indefinitely logged into the game with very little counter play.

A bump machariel can hold you indefinitely in space while an alt in a noob ship keeps you permanently aggressed and from that point on, it is nigh impossible to make an escape. I think an introduction of a new module could bring a solution to this.

Inertia Ampifier:



  • Active module
  • Sets the ship's velocity to zero
  • Increases inertia by a huge factor
  • Causes align time to increase by a huge factor
  • Immunity to webifiers
  • + warp core strength


If a module could be created that causes the ship to align very slowly, while having such a high inertia that it would take an absurd amount of mass or ships to knock off course, then a freighter could escape while leaving a legitimate ganking fleet enough of a time window to successfully gank the ship.

Currently the only counter play to this tactic is to use a jump freighter and have a cyno to jump out to a low sec system if you're bumped, but I believe that ships like the orca, bowhead and freighters should have an option to counter this tactic.
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#2 - 2016-04-11 21:34:19 UTC
It's called a higgs rig.
The problem of Freighters not having fittings and CCP being unable to create industrial ships with enough PG/CPU and appropriate slots to create real fittings (& stacking penalties on Cargo extenders) is a different problem and the one you actually need solved to solve your problem.

Also velocity of zero means you can never align due to the way the game actually represents your heading purely as a result of your velocity.
mentlegen Aucie
Black Hand Highlanders
#3 - 2016-04-11 21:38:11 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
It's called a higgs rig.
Also velocity of zero means you can never align due to the way the game actually represents your heading purely as a result of your velocity.


By velocity of zero, I mean it resets your velocity to zero removing any bump velocity you had prior.
Iain Cariaba
#4 - 2016-04-11 22:17:20 UTC
mentlegen Aucie wrote:
High Sec Ganking is a perfectly legitimate game mechanic

This is the only thing you had right in your post.
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#5 - 2016-04-11 22:30:16 UTC
The problem is that there is plenty you could have done to avoid being bumped in the first place.

Asking for gameplay options after you're bumped and aggressed is like asking for game play options after you jump your freighter into a bubble camp.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs

Paranoid Loyd
#6 - 2016-04-11 22:47:34 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
It's called a higgs rig.
Nope, it's called a webbing alt.

"There is only one authority in this game, and that my friend is violence. The supreme authority upon which all other authority is derived." ISD Max Trix

Fix the Prospect!

mentlegen Aucie
Black Hand Highlanders
#7 - 2016-04-12 09:18:40 UTC
Daichi Yamato wrote:
The problem is that there is plenty you could have done to avoid being bumped in the first place.

Asking for gameplay options after you're bumped and aggressed is like asking for game play options after you jump your freighter into a bubble camp.


I just want to clarify, I've never lost a ship to this but taken part in many gank fleets and still think it's broken (this is not my main).

Grath Telkin touched on the issue during a meta show where he talks about it:

https://youtu.be/q4EEgEm_q6s?t=1520


And I disagree with the bubble camp analogy. You have a lot of counter play there, but in high sec you're very limited. Grath talks about webbing alts not being an effective counter since once you are bumped, the webs are worthless.

At the end of the day, as it stands, someone can keep a ship in space indefinitely. If there was some method of counter play, freighters would be doing it. But there isn't.

Ben Ishikela
#8 - 2016-04-12 09:50:25 UTC
https://youtu.be/q4EEgEm_q6s?t=1520
Watched it.

==>
It seems to me that you'd like to introduce a timeout for the gankfleet. However thats done, i think its great.

---

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_G2Gei_oGT8
You know the "Maruader MWD - BASTION warp trick".
I imagine that this "inertia amplifier" would work like this:
5 Minutes to kill.
If not, decision was made and therefor if granted safe-warpoff.

However that module looks, i think thats a mechanic that forces quicker desicions and also puts an end to undecided states.

Ideas are like Seeds. I'd chop fullgrown trees to start a fire.

Maldiro Selkurk
Radiation Sickness
#9 - 2016-04-12 18:51:15 UTC
Disagree that bumping is legitimate game play. CCP has said it is so i guess were stuck with it but an aggression timer needs to be put into the game for bumping, its aggression without the consequence.

Oh and anyone, CCP included saying you cannot tell whom is bumping whom is just a cheap excuse for wanting to give the pew, pew crowd an unfair engagement ability in highsec at the expense of......you guessed it industrialists as always.

Yawn,  I'm right as usual. The predictability kinda gets boring really.

Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#10 - 2016-04-12 20:03:24 UTC
Maldiro Selkurk wrote:
Disagree that bumping is legitimate game play. CCP has said it is so i guess were stuck with it but an aggression timer needs to be put into the game for bumping, its aggression without the consequence.

Oh and anyone, CCP included saying you cannot tell whom is bumping whom is just a cheap excuse for wanting to give the pew, pew crowd an unfair engagement ability in highsec at the expense of......you guessed it industrialists as always.


Except it's actually true that the code can't "see" who really is bumping who. All the code see is 2 object moving too close to each others.
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#11 - 2016-04-12 22:27:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Daichi Yamato
mentlegen Aucie wrote:
Daichi Yamato wrote:
The problem is that there is plenty you could have done to avoid being bumped in the first place.

Asking for gameplay options after you're bumped and aggressed is like asking for game play options after you jump your freighter into a bubble camp.


I just want to clarify, I've never lost a ship to this but taken part in many gank fleets and still think it's broken (this is not my main).

Grath Telkin touched on the issue during a meta show where he talks about it:

https://youtu.be/q4EEgEm_q6s?t=1520


And I disagree with the bubble camp analogy. You have a lot of counter play there, but in high sec you're very limited. Grath talks about webbing alts not being an effective counter since once you are bumped, the webs are worthless.

At the end of the day, as it stands, someone can keep a ship in space indefinitely. If there was some method of counter play, freighters would be doing it. But there isn't.


If you think a freighter has counter play in a bubble camp you should mention what it is.
There are many mechanics in eve that have no counter play. An industrial ship tackled next to a poco has no counter play. A rettie tackled in a belt has no counter play. No counter play does not mean its broken.

Grath has missed the point as much as you have.
If you are waiting till its too late to do something about it, then of course there's no counter play. Luckily if you're not dumb there is plenty of counter play up until the point you are bumped. Potentially hours of opportunities to prevent a bump from happening in the first place.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs

Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#12 - 2016-04-12 23:09:43 UTC
Daichi Yamato wrote:

If you think a freighter has counter play in a bubble camp you should mention what it is.
There are many mechanics in eve that have no counter play. An industrial ship tackled next to a poco has no counter play. A rettie tackled in a belt has no counter play. No counter play does not mean its broken.

Grath has missed the point as much as you have.
If you are waiting till its too late to do something about it, then of course there's no counter play. Luckily if you're not dumb there is plenty of counter play up until the point you are bumped. Potentially hours of opportunities to prevent a bump from happening in the first place.

As above, the problem is all about lack of PG/CPU/Slots on Industrial ships, nothing to do with the existence of the bumping mechanic or bubble camps. It would be easy to create 'balanced' industrial ships which could have a wide range of fittings and some ability to defend themselves. People including CCP are just so used to Industrials being helpless targets that they are locked into the mindset rather than exploring appropriate era's for inspiration outside the modern era.
mentlegen Aucie
Black Hand Highlanders
#13 - 2016-04-12 23:20:52 UTC
Daichi Yamato wrote:

If you think a freighter has counter play in a bubble camp you should mention what it is.
There are many mechanics in eve that have no counter play. An industrial ship tackled next to a poco has no counter play. A rettie tackled in a belt has no counter play. No counter play does not mean its broken.

Grath has missed the point as much as you have.
If you are waiting till its too late to do something about it, then of course there's no counter play. Luckily if you're not dumb there is plenty of counter play up until the point you are bumped. Potentially hours of opportunities to prevent a bump from happening in the first place.


Grath was scouting and rapier webbing his freighter when he got caught. As soon as he got bumped, he was unable to counter the strategy being used.

He said that he could have potentially grabbed 100 PL bros to fleet up in gank thrashers to kill him, but that is literally taking 100 guys to deal with one guy.

A bubble camp does have counter play. You can scout ahead, attack the camp, smartbomb and destroy the bubbles and all sorts. There is nothing a freighter can do when it's being bumped except wait to die or self destruct unless you have the man power to fleet up and suicide gank the battleship (or ships) that's bumping you.

My proposed module merely puts a timer on how long a gank fleet has to enact its gank. Preventing, what I would define as "grief tactics", where a player can simply keep another one indefinitely in space unable to do anything except self destruct.
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#14 - 2016-04-13 01:02:56 UTC
@ nevyn.

They aren't helpless though. They can tank or they can evade. Barges have dps now, but its not going to help it when it gets attacked by bigger gangs. There is still no counter play when i bring 5 bs's to kill your skiff once you are tackled. Doesnt mean its broken.

@mentlegen

Im not sure you're reading my posts properly. A freighter cannot fit smart bombs.
All the other counters you mentioned are available to freighters in hi-sec as well.

If Grath failed to get a freighter into warp before it was tackled and bumped, the scout missed something. It takes three seconds to get a freighter into warp. So whatever tackled him was on grid and in range.

I can, and have, keep people in space against their will. And i can do it indefinitely. Its called a warp disrupter.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs

Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#15 - 2016-04-13 01:06:05 UTC
Daichi Yamato wrote:
@ nevyn.

They aren't helpless though.

Not being there is not viable counterplay, but these arguments have been hashed out a million times. You and others just want industrialists to be second rate citizens who are helpless targets. Keep enjoying bashing industrials the way you do, and I'll keep watching a very slow death spiral because 'PvP' in a lot of EVE is based on gank mechanics which are only engaging for one side and keeps heading further in that direction as time goes on.
mentlegen Aucie
Black Hand Highlanders
#16 - 2016-04-13 01:19:01 UTC
Daichi Yamato wrote:


@mentlegen

Im not sure you're reading my posts properly. A freighter cannot fit smart bombs.
All the other counters you mentioned are available to freighters in hi-sec as well.

If Grath failed to get a freighter into warp before it was tackled and bumped, the scout missed something. It takes three seconds to get a freighter into warp. So whatever tackled him was on grid and in range.

I can, and have, keep people in space against their will. And i can do it indefinitely. Its called a warp disrupter.


I did not say that a freighter could fit smartbombs. The point is that it takes considerable more effort and fleet support to deal with a mach bumping a freighter in high sec than to break a bubble camp in null sec when you pushed for examples of counter play.

The point is that you can take a fleet to crash a bubble camp, you can remove deployed bubbles with a smartbomber in the fleet and shoot the anchored ones.

Basically, the example in my eyes, has established that it is easier to move a freighter through a null sec bubble camp than it is to move it through high sec with active bump machariels. And I agree with this notion, it is definitely easier to move a freighter through low sec or null sec with a small fleet than it would be to do it in high sec.
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#17 - 2016-04-13 01:23:54 UTC
Industrials were more vulnerable when eve was growing every year.

Making me out to be some industrial basher is silly. I spend much of my time in game in industrials and freighters. And the tactics i use to 'not be there' is certainly counter play. We are all prey to someone. Its not like ive never been attacked.

When you say that a fight is engaging for only one side you are being as obtuse as the OP. The gameplay and the risks i take when i run the gauntlet as a hauler are engaging and i get an adrenaline rush when i know im about to go through gank territory or well travelled low sec with an expensive haul. Even if the fight itself once im caught leaves me with little to do, everything up until that part can get my heart going much like PVP.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs

Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#18 - 2016-04-13 01:26:26 UTC
If you put as much caution and effort into flying a freighter through a popular gank system as you did low sec or null sec, these threads wouldn't exist.

Thats the problem. Freighter pilots want a gtfo button AFTER they've left it too late.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs

Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#19 - 2016-04-13 01:29:43 UTC
I almost forgot.

Someone replying to these threads got their freighter out of being bumped with 5 allies counter bumping in battleships.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs

Donnachadh
United Allegiance of Undesirables
#20 - 2016-04-13 01:39:54 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Except it's actually true that the code can't "see" who really is bumping who. All the code see is 2 object moving too close to each others.

Have you seen the relevant code?
If not then you are guessing and trying to pass it off as a fact and that is ..... well we will not go there..

No I have not seen the code and anything I post about CCP's code would be pure speculation on my part, so I will go with an experience working in a game design and coding class once in the dark ages of the computer era. Tracking 2 objects in code and determining the object that hit and the object that was being hit is actually very easy to do since the paths and velocities of both objects are known. That is until you get into a head on collision or near to a head on, then it becomes more difficult and could in fact be nearly impossible depending on how far back in time your code retains the relative direction of travel for all of the objects involved. Even then as the ships approach if one of them changes direction in a way that keeps it on a course to collide then you could reasonably accept that the intent was to cause the collision and handle it in an appropriate manor. If neither ship changed direction over the last say 10 to 15 seconds leading up to the collision then your code would have to accept that it was one of those things that occur from time to time.

Getting out of the technical aspects and back into the game and the OP I agree there needs to be time limit on how long you can bump someone with nothing happening to them. Simply because I was curious as to how long it could be done and how long the other player might keep it up I waited out more than 10 minutes of being bumped once while I tried all possible ways to escape (except shooting them) and then finally logged of and left my ship and pod to whatever the fates had in store for them secure in the knowledge that if there was no other factors involved that the bumper could have held me there at least until downtime. That nearly unlimited time that someone could hold you in place by bumping is something that perhaps CCP needs to look at.
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