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First post
Black Pedro
#961 - 2016-04-11 12:02:43 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:

Why so lazy?
Lots of feedback about the feature having such a minimalist implementation. First, let me clear up some confusion by saying that this feature has no relationship with the 'Tribute' system that was described last year at EVE Vegas. That feature has actually gone down a path more focused on goal setting and long term engagement than daily activity and so the daily part was broken off and given to our team separately. With that in mind, we are trying to find the right mix of activity and accessibility. We want you to be able to collect this reward during a lunch break or a 10 minute period where your kids are in timeout but also want to make sure there's some real gameplay associated with it. We think getting to a belt or gate for an NPC is about the right mix and that's why we've landed with this. That said, we've also deliberately tried to keep it simple so that we can deploy fast and adjust based on how it gets used. We are absolutely open to expanding the list of activities in the future and imagined that as one of the most likely first iterations. Small sidenote on activities: many of you mentioned PVP, remember that this is always problematic because the most effective way to PVP for rewards is just kill your own alt, which isn't very fun or interesting.

First, just to point out that while shooting your alt isn't very fun or interesting, neither is flying to a belt and shooting a single NPC at no risk. It would seem to me if you are setting the bar so low, that it isn't very much further down to shooting an alt from shooting a single NPC.

Maybe I am in the minority, but my normal game play rarely has me shooting NPCs, even when I am undocked in space. I tend to either trade, gather resources, or shoot other players. This proposal rewards shooting NPCs so much more than any of my other activities I will have no choice but to alter my game play to take advantage. If this is implemented, my new game session will look like: Start Launcher --> (log-in alt and and fly to belt to shoot single NPC)x9 or x12 --> Now go do what I really want. With this incentive structure I will have no choice as every other option I have to make resources is so much worse than the 15M ISK for a few minutes work.

Fine, I will do that, but I don't think that is the intention of this proposal.

One change which would limit my ability to farm all my alts would be to only award the the SP bonus to characters actively training skills. At least then my grind before I can do what I really want would be only one-third as long.

Goonswarm Federation
#962 - 2016-04-11 12:09:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Rain6639
Thanks for the reply Rise, it was well-written.

I'm happy about the news of your awareness of market crashes due to item giveaways. I hope there is a commitment to creating new items for the sake of giveaways, as someone who has 1,000 of a particular SKIN. It's been so long that I've accepted the possibility and would just post about it for the schadenfreude, but there's also the basic principle that you shouldn't be so careless with player item values.

Is there a possibility for adjustments to the reward model, and what might they look like? SP distributed over several NPC kills or actions, higher or lower ceiling for daily SP bonus, etc?
l0rd carlos
the king asked me to guard the mountain
#963 - 2016-04-11 12:11:22 UTC
I was really mad
Now I'm confused. Confused over my own feelings. I don't know what to think about it any more.

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Goonswarm Federation
#964 - 2016-04-11 12:11:55 UTC
Also, does that mean you're looking for ways to generate logins?
Goonswarm Federation
#965 - 2016-04-11 12:17:10 UTC
I suggest allowing us to select up to 24 hours of just-trained SP to be moved to unallocated.

One of the biggest problems with releasing new modules and skills is the rush to catch up to where we'd like to be with the skill levels. This stop-and-go is forcing us to constantly be in a state of less-than-optimal skill training.

For me, nearly all of my characters are fully trained spec V in all the ships I want. What I'd really like to do is start training to unallocated instead of picking new skills just to have my skill queue running. If I could train to unallocated, I'd be able to dump millions of SP into things like Capital Gunnery Specializations as soon as they arrive.

I think you have a valid point that SP is a very universal incentive, and instead of giving more of it, perhaps if you allowed us more control over the allocation instead, more players would find it agreeable.
Goonswarm Federation
#966 - 2016-04-11 12:20:40 UTC
The alternative would be releasing the skill books well in advance so we can train them. The Capital Gunnery Specializations, for example, are rank 10 and there are six of them coming, for a total of 15 million SP. To make that transition fair we would need nearly a year of advanced notice and availability.

If we can train to unallocated instead, that makes us futureproof for any new skills and we don't have to get caught with our pants down.
Goonswarm Federation
#967 - 2016-04-11 12:21:26 UTC
And by only allowing us to move the previous 24 hours to unallocated, you get your daily logins.
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#968 - 2016-04-11 12:28:23 UTC
I remember when SP was an indication of how long and often you played. I remember having to log in when a skill finished, and you needed to start another one. This messin` with my SP is gettin kinda dumb. CCPls
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#969 - 2016-04-11 12:35:17 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:

Why Skillpoints?
...Second big reason that we actually tried designs using item and ISK rewards and it quickly creates a lot of economic imbalances. Any time we are giving something away without much activity cost we are heavily sabotaging someone's gameplay. Whether it's because of devaluing LP, causing major inflation, or crashing item markets, it's all bad for you guys so we would rather avoid it.

I don't know if you saw it, but I was suggesting journal entries with content as the reward, wouldn't that avoid the problem you're describing?

I'm with you on the reasoning behind daily logins, just not liking the implementation for the eve sandbox. Is there no way you can make these missions/challenges be created by the player corporations? I'd feel 10 times more motivated to do something my corp had setup, rather than some repetitive auto-generated chore selected by the game. And it would be a great way for corps to manipulate their members into combining their efforts towards a common goal.

I know that might seem counter to your idea of a ten minute login, BUT if that's what a player wants out of these, then he could just find a corp that provides 10 minute dailies, or if they are happy to do something that takes 2 hours instead, they can find a corp that provides that instead. Or a corp could just provide selection of dailies with varying difficulty/time-consumption.

I know player corps being in charge is a scary idea, especially if it rewards SP, but I think it's possible to put controls in place to limit those dangers enough for the benefits to out-weight them.
Caldari 5
D.I.L.L.I.G.A.F. S.A.S
#970 - 2016-04-11 12:41:17 UTC
Looks at the date on the OP, not an April Fools Joke? .... Are you serious?

Seems that the harshness of Eve is slowly degrading, first Skill Point injectors and now this? ( I have a pet hate for Skill Point injectors because it effectively de-coupled Character Age from SP Range, that you could guess if a character was old enough to light a cyno or not, or if they've had the change to train T2 fittings/weaponry yet etc, at least with the Character Bazaar this was still intact)

I'm sorry but if you are going to give some form of activity reward, make it CONCORD LP(because it's Transferable for the LP you want) or ISK.

Or some form of Bonus rate of generation, like earn Double ISK/Sec Status/LP for the First hour of logging in per 22 hours.
Sir Constantin
#971 - 2016-04-11 12:43:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Sir Constantin
Thanks Rise for the follow-up but we already kind of new why CCP wants to go on this path.

In the race of dumbing down the game CCP once again removed a good old mechanic. With 24 hour skillque you could at least add a long skill to the que and not be forced to login every day.

I started playing Eve because you didn't have to grind for SP. But times are changing and seems that we gonna fall behind and lose SP if we can't log in every day, which is a **** mechanic.

Here is a idea, f**k IWI and all 3'rd party casinos. make a casino in game and set the dailies to give casino credits. People love gambling but they also lose a lot so there will always be demand for credits.
Can't be that hard to design a 3d window like the Project discovery one, use some casino scripts that you can find all over the web. If it's a success you can also build further on that, making it multiplayer and stuff..
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#972 - 2016-04-11 12:43:59 UTC
Scatim Helicon wrote:
You could try making a game that your playerbase wants to log in for, rather than having to bribe them with SP.

Hell, here's a completely crazy idea, you could make NPCs challenging and interesting to fight rather than something to be farmed en masse in your sleep.

(you won't do either of these things)

Not emptyquoting.

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The Conference Elite
#973 - 2016-04-11 12:56:40 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
If you look at Citadel feature list you should not have any concerns about our commitment to the EVE sandbox and the hardcore nature of our game.

Right, because magically teleporting everyone's stuff to the nearest lowsec station every time a citadel dies is SUPER HARDCORE, CCP Rise. Pirate Who could possibly have doubts?
l0rd carlos
the king asked me to guard the mountain
#974 - 2016-04-11 12:58:45 UTC
Caldari 5 wrote:

Seems that the harshness of Eve is slowly degrading, first Skill Point injectors and now this? .

How does Injectors and Dailys increase the degrading of eves harshness?

Youtube Channel about Micro and Small scale PvP with commentary: Fleet Commentary by l0rd carlos

Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#975 - 2016-04-11 13:05:31 UTC
So, like a lot of people I have a lot of different characters. Not all of those go pew pew regardless of whether that is pewing rats or other people.

The kind of message that this sends is the only player loyalty that's worth rewarding, is players or characters that shoot things.

This once again shows CCP's trap of activities they consider valuable and fear of repeating Forex and getting outsmarted by the players.
Nocturnal Romance
Cynosural Field Theory.
#976 - 2016-04-11 13:07:42 UTC
Just no. I do not want to login each of my characters in everyday to kill a rat.
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#977 - 2016-04-11 13:10:35 UTC
GlenCoco wrote:

This once again shows CCP's trap of activities they consider valuable and fear of repeating Forex and getting outsmarted by the players.

There is ~20K+ people online everyday. There are collectively more hours spent trying to break the game than CCP could ever commit. CCP will get outsmarted. It's inevitable. CCP is in it for the money, not for any of it's players. They don't care so long as that little income graph trickles upwards at the end of the day.
Vincent Athena
#978 - 2016-04-11 13:14:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Vincent Athena
Khan Wrenth wrote:
CCP Rise wrote:

...I didn't see the word "orthodoxy"... :(

Jokes aside, can we at least get a change so that the skillpoints are more restricted? Like, maybe just a little thing like "only on active training queues", or "any of the three characters on that account can complete it"?

This. At least make it once per account. If its all three, then instead of encouraging people to log in, you are encouraging them to log off, so they can log in the other pilots. Its busy work.

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Jita Flipping Inc.
#979 - 2016-04-11 13:18:32 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
Hope some of this helps. We are taking your feedback seriously and if we don't make any changes before release we will absolutely be following up shortly after release with changes based on feedback and behavior.

No you're not. You will be releasing this primitive daily cancer to boost your PCU regardless of what anyone will post in this thread.

This ... daily nonsense ... IS NOT PROMOTING ACTIVITY. How hilariously naive or hypocritical can you be ?

The only thing it does - using SP as an obvious (and only possible) leverage - is making people do the same, boring, repetitive. mundane task day by day, month by month, year by year. As quickly as possible, solo, from Jita to nearest belt/anomaly to spank a mob, log off and repeat this nonsense on another character. A task they will quickly learn to absolutely hate (and game in the process) - yet they will keep doing this because the feel of loosing SP is too big for most people to handle (and - especially - occasional new players coming from themepark geargrinders treating dailes like a religion).

Don't do this ****.
Goryn Clade
#980 - 2016-04-11 13:20:37 UTC
If you are going to do this. Please at least limit it to once per account per day. As a min-maxer it would get REALLY irritating in the long run to feel like I was missing out for not logging in all 9 of my characters to get that little SP fix.