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Chain Collapsing Wormholes
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Ossirrus
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#1 - 2012-01-12 06:42:09 UTC

It seems that this task is made difficult by the fluctuations of the actual masses of wormholes in relation to the estimated mass.

Is there any way to do this effectivly withough risk of leaving someone on the "wrong" side of the clollapse?

I have heard perhaps interdictors can make themselves small then very large or something along these lines is this a valid strategy

for collapsing?

Also i have heard about using alts but then you must bring the alt back in before you can use them again. So how do the big WH

corps Chain collapse if they(potentially) lose an alt every single time they close 1 hole?

Thank you for the help guys
Tauranon
Weeesearch
CAStabouts
#2 - 2012-01-12 06:58:43 UTC
You still risk leaving someone on the wrong side, but if you are doing it right, and daily shouldn't be more than once every couple of months - so make sure you have people on the right side, and if you care about the ship used, fit it with a probe launcher and check that its not going to be marooned by the connected systems static. (I once spent a week waiting for a k162 to be opened by another explorer to escape a marooning).

plates and running ABs increase ship mass afaik. Orca good for bulk reduction of a hole.
Ossirrus
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#3 - 2012-01-12 07:07:36 UTC
Tauranon wrote:
but if you are doing it right,

Yes this is the part i would like somebody to go further into detail about if they would Lol
Tauranon
Weeesearch
CAStabouts
#4 - 2012-01-12 07:53:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Tauranon
Ossirrus wrote:
Tauranon wrote:
but if you are doing it right,

Yes this is the part i would like somebody to go further into detail about if they would Lol



The WH gives messages at 50% and 90%, so you use larger ships to get close to each %, then tick over the message with smaller ones, so that you know more precisely how much has gone through. Thats a second estimate and can include players you haven't seen go through the hole (and therefore can't have counted the mass for in your primary estimate). Presuming you are only closing the hole once or twice day, it will usually be the case that you don't know if non corpies have gone through it.

Leave your closer on the other side when you get near its total mass left as the minimum and tick the hole up to say 98% estimated with your small ship, and then bring the closer through. ideally a closer should do more than 10% in one trip, otherwise it will occasionally leave the hole open. You can decide what risk is worse for you - a closer probing its way back to highsec (or self destructing), or an open hole you can't guarantee will even take a 2 way trip for a pod.

You can use AB and plates to make a closer bigger, and if there is a risk it will get stuck, you might want to check the static in the other system to see that it will fit through it at all. Otherwise it will be marooned until someone opens a k162 big enough for it.
Substantia Nigra
Polaris Rising
Goonswarm Federation
#5 - 2012-01-12 08:36:49 UTC
When we're chain collapsing it's pretty well all-orca, with nice easy numbers to keep track of, just making an outbound jump or two without MWD/AB running. When we're not chaining it's like the other responders advise, but with a fine-tuning tool not yet mention (altho most ppl prolly use it).

A HICtor is a very handy WH-collapsing tool. With a warp disruption field generator running the HICtor loses 80% of its mass. With three running they weigh about as much as a snowflake. So if you're not 100% certain of the starting mass of the WH, and you're working from the changes as you go, then being able to take a very light HICtor outbound and return with a significantly heavy cruiser (MWD/AB on and bubbles off) can be very handy.

Another potentially useful 'tool' is the fact that the collapsed WH doesn't disappear immediately and, it seems, it doesn't matter how much you collapse it by in that final jump. The benefit of this is that you can bring a helluva lot of mass thru on that last inbound jump, providing they all jump thru at the same time ... and providing they're all under the WH's single-jump limit.
By not-immediately I mean it lingers for a few seconds once the final jump has occurred. It's not a lot of time but that can be useful.
One long ago collapse using this method went awry and one of us ended up in a completely unrelated, unconnected w-system not at a WH.



I guess I am almost a 'vet' by now. Hopefully not too bitter and managing to help more than I hinder. I build and sell many things, including large collections of bookmarks.
carnivore2k4
The Herd
#6 - 2012-01-12 11:11:54 UTC
Collapsing WHs is mostly simple math - subtracting masses from the total mass of the WH. And it's up to you to decide how simple you make it:

Substantia Nigra wrote:
When we're chain collapsing it's pretty well all-orca, with nice easy numbers to keep track of, just making an outbound jump or two without MWD/AB running.


Additionally use battleships with 100 millionen mass (150 with active) propulsion and some battlecruisers (15/20).

Tauranon wrote:

The WH gives messages at 50% and 90%, so you use larger ships to get close to each %, then tick over the message with smaller ones, so that you know more precisely how much has gone through.


This is key to success.

Here is one example:

You have a nice x877 (static c4) with 2.000.000.000 total mass (2000 millions). You know some ships have gone through that hole already, but don't know how many - it doesn't have any mass reduction yet, though.

1. use 100 mio tons battleships until you reduce the mass to 50% (one jump at a time).
2. Now you know that you are between 900 and 1100 mio tons minus what your last battleship jump subtracted from that.
3. Next step is to aim for the 10% mass reduction (between 220 and 180). your lowest possible current mass is slightly above 800 mio tons, so you can reduce the mass by another 600 without any worries.
4. safest way to continue is to use battlecruisers until you reach the 10% mass.
5. the hole is now flickering heavily and has a remaining mass between 180 and 220 minus one or two battlecruiser jumps (40 mio tons maximum)
6. you now jump with a battleship without active propulsion mod to the other side, reducing the mass to something between 120 and 40.
7 and jump back with active propulsion mod, reducing the hole by another 150 mio tons
8. now it's closed

It's easier and faster when you can already track the first half of the mass reduction, so you can take bigger steps for the second one and you will also encounter situations where you miscalculated and your battleship ends up on the wrong side of the hole while it wildly flickers...

It's always a good idea to have a character with cheaper implants doing the last jump and using a cheap fitting (maybe with probes) to be on the save side.
Bibosikus
Air
#7 - 2012-01-12 14:21:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Bibosikus
[Devoter, WHB]
1600mm Reinforced Steel Plates II
1600mm Reinforced Steel Plates II
1600mm Reinforced Steel Plates II
Reactor Control Unit II
Reactor Control Unit II
Reactor Control Unit II
Reactor Control Unit II

100MN Afterburner I
[empty med slot]
[empty med slot]

Warp Disruption Field Generator I
Warp Disruption Field Generator I
Warp Disruption Field Generator I
Warp Disruption Field Generator I
Prototype Cloaking Device I
Core Probe Launcher I, Core Scanner Probe I


Outbound - AB off, WDFG's on, mass=211 tonnes (about 1/4 of a Dramiel)

Inbound - WDFG's off, AB on, mass=76.5k tonnes (about half of a triple-trimarked, plated BS)

The Devoter is the only HIC with enough grid to fit three plates and a 100mn ab plus the usual cloak/probes, and this is a standard disposable ft for finishing off wormholes. But any HIC will do at a pinch.

Collapsing wh is fairly straightforward as long as you keep on top of the maths. That said, I've unwittingly collapsed one by jumping a cov ops through before now. It's not an exact science :)

Eagles may soar, but weasels don't get sucked into jet engines.
Ammzi
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#8 - 2012-01-12 15:45:13 UTC
If you're in a c2 and above and using battlecruisers to collapse a wormhole you are doing it wrong.

C2,C3,C4 connections -> Orcas and HIC (possibily battleships).
C5,C6 connections -> Carrier, dreadnought, battleship and possibly an orca.

C1 -> retrieversBig smile
Cherry Nobyl
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#9 - 2012-01-13 01:43:53 UTC
worth noting as well the fluctuations of mass on any particular hole can be as large as 10% (or was it closer to 20%? hmmm).

so the above mentioned 2b tonne becomes 2.2b or 1.8b. it doesn't happen that often, but it does happen.

ensure your closing ships all have probe launchers and probes. the number of times myself or a corpmate has had to scan themselves out of the 'oops, it closed' hole, or the 'we just got jumped' scatter makes it worth while.
Jack Miton
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#10 - 2012-01-13 01:48:46 UTC
depends what kind of WH it is.
c5/c6 are the easiest to collapse and it is 100% safe is you do it right.
any hole that can fit an orca is easy enough too, it's just c1 holes that are a pain in the arse.

what kind of WH are you trying to chain collapse?

There is no Bob.

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Trinkets friend
Sudden Buggery
Sending Thots And Players
#11 - 2012-01-13 04:21:19 UTC
That Devoter fit is fine, except for the 3 plates. What you are going for is the most contrast in mass between a 100MN active and the 3 WGS's active...so adding 3 1600's reduces this contrast. In the end, it is basically not worth putting more than 1 or 2 WDG's on and an offlined probe launcher and cloak, in case you need to get your ass out of dodge. Yes, this can still happpen with SNAFU's or when you are pressured by, for instance, dudes on the other side and speed > accuracy.

~~ Localectomy Blog ~~