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Dave Stark
#741 - 2016-04-10 10:48:12 UTC
Big Lynx wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
Big Lynx wrote:
Many players resubbed recently and the numbers are growing.


which also has absolutely nothing to do with this.


Correct. And a daily is no reason for quitting eve.


it's also not a reason to let ccp add a system that's flawed in so many ways. just because it's not a reason to quit, isn't a reason to accept mediocrity.
Lan Wang
Princess Aiko Hold My Hand
Safety. Net
#742 - 2016-04-10 10:49:39 UTC
id like to see the xp popup for every shot landed on a target, with with a big "Great!" on screen after the target has died, it would go great with the gong sound and be super immersive

Domination Nephilim - Angel Cartel

Calm down miner. As you pointed out, people think they can get away with stuff they would not in rl... Like for example illegal mining... - Ima Wreckyou*
George Gouillot
MASS
Pandemic Horde
#743 - 2016-04-10 10:50:48 UTC
Big Lynx wrote:
Tau Cabalander wrote:
Cajun Waffles wrote:
News flash: DAILIES are not required! If you feel that you are being forced to acquire an additional 4million skill points (total gained during the year) by doing dailies your whole argument is asinine!

It's optional! Just like acquiring plex, extractors, etc.


To keep up with the competition (that's everybody in EVE), you'll have to do them.


Great BS. Nobody in the ENTIRE virtual and real world forces you to do the daily. There are simply no arguments against this. only salt and tears without a factual background. So much buttpain for 3mio SP per year (!) Grow up nerds.Roll


This depends a bit on the perspective. SP is a commodity now, but it has different price tag depending on your stats. If a character has more than 80 mio SP, the 3.98 mln additional SP that can be theoretically achieved by daylies represent an ISK equivalent of app. 16 bln, which is considerably more than the cost of the sub. This is an extremely high incentive for doing something that you do not like to do. Which will make a lot of players hate it.

Big Lynx
#744 - 2016-04-10 10:50:59 UTC
Dave Stark wrote:
Big Lynx wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
Big Lynx wrote:
Many players resubbed recently and the numbers are growing.


which also has absolutely nothing to do with this.


Correct. And a daily is no reason for quitting eve.


it's also not a reason to let ccp add a system that's flawed in so many ways. just because it's not a reason to quit, isn't a reason to accept mediocrity.

Sure, I agree with in that point.
Kierene Hilthene
Kierene Hilthene Corporation
#745 - 2016-04-10 10:51:26 UTC
I actually think it would be more psychologically impacting to reward ISK than SP.


  • SP can be created for doing nothing. ISK takes effort.
  • The same for SP could be said for other, "Cash Shop" worthy items (Aurum). All you need is money, where other, such as mineral-based, items, do not.


So as long as you put things that (could) have a real life money alternative for dailies, I think the impact may not be as great as it seems. As long as we know that ISK, normal manufactured items, aren't part of that. As after all, doing so would start to change the dynamic of EVE...

Skill points, to me, have a real life alternative (buy another account + skill extractors) IF they are time limited like a daily system. Grinding a rock for SP is not replicable by cash, on the other hand, because that is far more "endless".

Things that typically are generated into the game by risking your ship at some point at least, are also not currently replicable by cash. But special edition items, clothing vanity items, things like that, would be fine for dailies too, while without changing the structure of the game too much.

Basically, I'm saying if the real life people can spend real life money to catch up with the rewards of dailies, and we be careful to not put the wrong type of reward in, it may not be so bad?
Esrevid Nekkeg
Justified and Ancient
#746 - 2016-04-10 10:56:22 UTC
Big Lynx wrote:
Dave Stark wrote:
Big Lynx wrote:
Many players resubbed recently and the numbers are growing.


which also has absolutely nothing to do with this.


Correct. And a daily is no reason for quitting eve.
If you are opposed to this, as I am, it might very well be the straw that breaks the camels back.

Here I used to have a sig of our old Camper in space. Now it is disregarded as being the wrong format. Looking out the window I see one thing: Nothing wrong with the format of our Camper! Silly CCP......
Dror
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#747 - 2016-04-10 10:59:27 UTC
The first 15 or so pages of this had no decent critique against the idea. What's the issue now?

SP is being "created out of nowhere"? So what? Checked out the retention claims? Ready to imply that SP has nothing to do with retention even though the mechanic keeps getting patched?

It's "forced"? If SP is so super that missing just a little makes players feel awful, how do fresh subs feel?

"SP is helpful for the game?" Here's all of the research on motivation -- it says the opposite! What purpose does it serve, then? Starter corps are non-competitive. Sov is unchallenged. "Fix sov!" you say? Remove SP.
beakerax
Pator Tech School
#748 - 2016-04-10 11:11:40 UTC
Dror wrote:
The first 15 or so pages of this had no decent critique against the idea. What's the issue now?
People who have experienced dailies in other games have made their concerns clear.

As for arguments in favour of dailies? So far I've seen "new player" fallacies and posts that apparently support this concept out of spite.

Given that Rise's new method of persuasion on these matters is to do nothing, I don't see much reason to effortpost.
Lugh Crow-Slave
#749 - 2016-04-10 11:14:12 UTC
Dror wrote:
The first 15 or so pages of this had no decent critique against the idea. What's the issue now?

SP is being "created out of nowhere"? So what? Checked out the retention claims? Ready to imply that SP has nothing to do with retention even though the mechanic keeps getting patched?

It's "forced"? If SP is so super that missing just a little makes players feel awful, how do fresh subs feel?



why are so many ppl defending this hung up on the SP

the SP is not the issue here

the issue is CCP telling you how to play their game

the issue is CCP just seeing you as a log in number

the issue is EVE is a game you can play at your own pace with out ever feeling you need to log in

the issue is making ppl want to log in for such a hollow reason is LAZY and if we reward them for being lazy they will keep being lazy

BLOPS Hauler
The 16.8km Bubble
Iam Widdershins
Project Nemesis
#750 - 2016-04-10 11:14:33 UTC
After thinking about this a couple days, I think I can give some feedback.

This should diminish over time, perhaps at the same rate that skill injectors' effectiveness does. I would also be all for having the cooldown timer apply per account, rather than letting every single character slot on every single account do this every day.

Here's my justification:

If it takes you 2 minutes to log in, find and kill an NPC, and log out, that's circa 200 million ISK per hour of returns you're getting during those 2 minutes. If you have 2 or 3 accounts, you are strongly incentivized to doing this every single day on all 6, 9... 12? characters. That's the natural course to take when min-maxing, and it's not fun gameplay. It just isn't. How could it be? It's mostly logging in and out and warping, and it's about as boring as gameplay can possibly get outside of watching ice miners cycle.

Now, I'm not totally against this idea. It's fantastic for new players: that's like three hours of training time a day ez. It's also good for older players: having other slots on your accounts, you can give them that bonus sp and dump that sp into basic skills like industrials, scanning, trade, touchplanet, etc. But being strongly incentivized to do this on every single character on your account, every day, from the very beginning, is gonna grow old pretty darn fast.

Lobbying for your right to delete your signature
Lugh Crow-Slave
#751 - 2016-04-10 11:16:46 UTC
Iam Widdershins wrote:
After thinking about this a couple days, I think I can give some feedback.

This should diminish over time, perhaps at the same rate that skill injectors' effectiveness does. I would also be all for having the cooldown timer apply per account, rather than letting every single character slot on every single account do this every day.

Here's my justification:

If it takes you 2 minutes to log in, find and kill an NPC, and log out, that's circa 200 million ISK per hour of returns you're getting during those 2 minutes. If you have 2 or 3 accounts, you are strongly incentivized to doing this every single day on all 6, 9... 12? characters. That's the natural course to take when min-maxing, and it's not fun gameplay. It just isn't. How could it be? It's mostly logging in and out and warping, and it's about as boring as gameplay can possibly get outside of watching ice miners cycle.

Now, I'm not totally against this idea. It's fantastic for new players: that's like three hours of training time a day ez. It's also good for older players: having other slots on your accounts, you can give them that bonus sp and dump that sp into basic skills like industrials, scanning, trade, touchplanet, etc. But being strongly incentivized to do this on every single character on your account, every day, from the very beginning, is gonna grow old pretty darn fast.


Except CCP isn't thinking of game balance they are just wanting the number of accounts logging in every day to go up

BLOPS Hauler
The 16.8km Bubble
Krevnos
Back Door Burglars
#752 - 2016-04-10 11:16:48 UTC
Dror wrote:
The first 15 or so pages of this had no decent critique against the idea. What's the issue now?

SP is being "created out of nowhere"? So what? Checked out the retention claims? Ready to imply that SP has nothing to do with retention even though the mechanic keeps getting patched?

It's "forced"? If SP is so super that missing just a little makes players feel awful, how do fresh subs feel?


No, the issue is that many players will feel a need to adopt a certain game style based on what menial tasks CCP has laid out for them on a daily basis, rather than enjoying the freedom of the game. This particularly applies to poorer players who have more to gain by it. Having a series of daily tasks laid out by the developer is not conducive to an enjoyable game experience, rather pushing players who would otherwise take the day off to log in just to shoot a rat. It also impacts on regular players' game time if they feel the need to engage in this nonsense to keep up with everyone else.

i.e. Many players will be performing mundane daily tasks rather than enjoying the freedom of the game. This is Theme Park MMO material.

Nobody is set to gain from this and everyone loses out, either on rewards or on their freedom of choice.

CCP Rise has clearly forgotten what Eve is about since he joined the development team.
Dani Gallar
Doomheim
#753 - 2016-04-10 11:19:39 UTC
For me the main problem is that there no variety. Instead of having exactly one way of getting the bonus SP (and a way that's far to easy) it would be better if several more complicated options to get bonus SP where implemented.
beakerax
Pator Tech School
#754 - 2016-04-10 11:20:59 UTC
Krevnos wrote:
CCP Rise has clearly forgotten what Eve is about since he joined the development team.
I doubt he thought this up.

Remember Rise, the safeword is "orthodox".
Lugh Crow-Slave
#755 - 2016-04-10 11:21:19 UTC
Dani Gallar wrote:
For me the main problem is that there no variety. Instead of having exactly one way of getting the bonus SP (and a way that's far to easy) it would be better if several more complicated options to get bonus SP where implemented.


why so instead of needing to do one meaningless task i have to do several

BLOPS Hauler
The 16.8km Bubble
Cristian Ambaek
Lab 23
#756 - 2016-04-10 11:26:02 UTC
That sounds like a horrible idea, EVE Online is not WoW.

Now we need small side "quests" to gain xtra daily SP's? NO thank you.
Big Lynx
#757 - 2016-04-10 11:26:42 UTC
Krevnos wrote:
Dror wrote:
The first 15 or so pages of this had no decent critique against the idea. What's the issue now?

SP is being "created out of nowhere"? So what? Checked out the retention claims? Ready to imply that SP has nothing to do with retention even though the mechanic keeps getting patched?

It's "forced"? If SP is so super that missing just a little makes players feel awful, how do fresh subs feel?


No, the issue is that many players will feel a need to adopt a certain game style based on what menial tasks CCP has laid out for them on a daily basis, rather than enjoying the freedom of the game. This particularly applies to poorer players who have more to gain by it. Having a series of daily tasks laid out by the developer is not conducive to an enjoyable game experience, rather pushing players who would otherwise take the day off to log in just to shoot a rat. It also impacts on regular players' game time if they feel the need to engage in this nonsense to keep up with everyone else.


again
Big Lynx wrote:

People who are moaning that they "have to" log in everyday to compete with others in this questionable skillpoint-race should immediatly switch of their computers, go out and in a silent moment start to address a question to themselves: "Do I really want to let a pc game control my every day life?" (indepentently from the question how CCP will assemble this mechanic)
Lugh Crow-Slave
#758 - 2016-04-10 11:28:37 UTC
Big Lynx wrote:
Krevnos wrote:
Dror wrote:
The first 15 or so pages of this had no decent critique against the idea. What's the issue now?

SP is being "created out of nowhere"? So what? Checked out the retention claims? Ready to imply that SP has nothing to do with retention even though the mechanic keeps getting patched?

It's "forced"? If SP is so super that missing just a little makes players feel awful, how do fresh subs feel?


No, the issue is that many players will feel a need to adopt a certain game style based on what menial tasks CCP has laid out for them on a daily basis, rather than enjoying the freedom of the game. This particularly applies to poorer players who have more to gain by it. Having a series of daily tasks laid out by the developer is not conducive to an enjoyable game experience, rather pushing players who would otherwise take the day off to log in just to shoot a rat. It also impacts on regular players' game time if they feel the need to engage in this nonsense to keep up with everyone else.


again
Big Lynx wrote:

People who are moaning that they "have to" log in everyday to compete with others in this questionable skillpoint-race should immediatly switch of their computers, go out and in a silent moment start to address a question to themselves: "Do I really want to let a pc game control my every day life?" (indepentently from the question how CCP will assemble this mechanic)



its not ppl moaning that they have to log in its ppl upset at an idea that is blatant manipulation to get them to log in by making them feel like the missed out if they dont

BLOPS Hauler
The 16.8km Bubble
beakerax
Pator Tech School
#759 - 2016-04-10 11:31:26 UTC
Big Lynx wrote:
"Do I really want to let a pc game control my every day life?"
this is the central design conceit of dailies and other Skinner box "gameplay"
Dave Stark
#760 - 2016-04-10 11:32:53 UTC
beakerax wrote:
Big Lynx wrote:
"Do I really want to let a pc game control my every day life?"
this is the central design conceit of dailies and other Skinner box "gameplay"


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tWtvrPTbQ_c

for people who have no idea what you're talking about.