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Blastos

First post
Author
Cyzlaki
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#61 - 2012-01-13 03:39:38 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Cyzlaki wrote:
This whole time you have assumed I do not know about signature radius and resolution
…because you demonstrated that you quite obviously don't, otherwise you wouldn't have made such an utterly moronic claim as saying the Zealot tracked worse than the Talos; calling me a moron when I corrected you; and “resting [your] case” when I told you that it couldn't be determined by tracking numbers alone.

It's not an assumption when you so willingly demonstrate your ignorance as a fact.

By the way, in your example, ship B has the better tracking. Do you know why? Or do you want me to tell you how tracking works?

You're wrong. Those stats don't matter unless you're trying to track tiny ships 100% of the time. Given a signature radius of a normal sized ship, the Talos tracks better. Now stop posting.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#62 - 2012-01-13 03:41:10 UTC
Cyzlaki wrote:
You're wrong. Those stats don't matter unless you're trying to track tiny ships 100% of the time.
No. They always matter when angular velocity is non-zero.
Quote:
Given a signature radius of a normal sized ship, the Talos tracks better..
The signature radius is not relevant for the comparison between turrets — the Zealot (and ship B) track better.
Do you want me to explain to you why?
Cyzlaki
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#63 - 2012-01-13 03:43:05 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Cyzlaki wrote:
You're wrong. Those stats don't matter unless you're trying to track tiny ships 100% of the time.
No. They always matter when angular velocity is non-zero.
Quote:
Given a signature radius of a normal sized ship, the Talos tracks better..
The signature radius is not relevant for the comparison between turrets — the Zealot (and ship B) track better.
Do you want me to explain to you why?

Nope. Now leave the thread
Aamrr
#64 - 2012-01-13 03:44:29 UTC
What is a "normal sized ship"? The Talos uses large guns, which gives it a 400m signature resolution. For its tracking to work "as advertised", that means shooting at stuff about the size of an apocalypse.

But I get the impression that that's not the size you were referring to. What about AHACs? With the blaster tracking boost and the Talos's tracking bonus, I could see it working, but I don't have the data to know one way or the other.
Cyzlaki
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#65 - 2012-01-13 03:44:41 UTC
Now that he's gone let's get back to the fact that the Talos is OP and has no trouble kiliing frigs. What have you popped with one?

Me so far:
Zealot
Vaga
Gila
Falcon
Drake
Tornado
Hurricane
Cyzlaki
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#66 - 2012-01-13 03:46:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Cyzlaki
Aamrr wrote:
What is a "normal sized ship"? The Talos uses large guns, which gives it a 400m signature resolution. For its tracking to work "as advertised", that means shooting at stuff about the size of an apocalypse.

But I get the impression that that's not the size you were referring to. What about AHACs? With the blaster tracking boost and the Talos's tracking bonus, I could see it working, but I don't have the data to know one way or the other.

When any ship has a shield tank and MWD on (pretty much all PVP ships) their sigs are so large that the second part of the tracking formula barely makes a difference. In practical application, the Talos demonstrates it can track even frigs inside optimal range and has absolutely no problem hitting anything bigger.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#67 - 2012-01-13 03:48:36 UTC
Cyzlaki wrote:
Now leave the thread
No. Not as long as you keep misinforming other posters about how tracking works.

Whether you what to know why or not, the fact remains: the Zealot you described tracks 2.7× better than the Talos.
Cyzlaki
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#68 - 2012-01-13 03:51:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Cyzlaki
Tippia wrote:
Cyzlaki wrote:
Now leave the thread
No. Not as long as you keep misinforming other posters about how tracking works.

Whether you what to know why or not, the fact remains: the Zealot you described tracks 2.7× better than the Talos.

Your theoretical BS has no relevance outside of EFT, as the Zealot has 1050 sig and the way I fly makes signature a non-issue in combat. Do you want me to tell you how to fly in PVP?
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
#69 - 2012-01-13 03:53:31 UTC
Aamrr wrote:
Forgive me, because I don't actually fly Gallente ships and I'm genuinely trying to learn something here. I understand that signature resolution and tracking are multiplied together in the turret accuracy formula, and for practical usage are combined to get the relevant number.

I also know that the blasters and lasers being discussed here work in entirely different ranges, and a web or two can solve that problem without much issue -- nevermind the difficulty of maintaining transversal when you're inside blaster range.

Is that all that's going on here? At the risk of ruining this fine debate, I would actually like to see the logic behind the arguments.


Heh, alright. There's a few things:
- MWD frigates at range (~20km) tend to get 2-3 volleyed at most despite high transversal. I think this is visible on one of my PVP videos. If it isn't, it'll be on an upcoming video (Amamake Fun 2, most likely).
- AB frigates are (all things considered) relatively slow. Its generally pretty easy to pull range and nail them at range.
- You can do the look-at and follow approach, but it doesn't work very well against frigates. Seems to work great against cruisers and BCs.
- The Talos has a drone bay.

I'll try to give up my beloved harpy for a little while and get some Talos action in... moar videos you know? :)

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.

Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#70 - 2012-01-13 03:58:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Cyzlaki wrote:
Your theoretical BS has no relevance outside of EFT
…which, funnily enough, makes it completely relevant to your incomplete EFT-based claim that the Talos track better just because it has a tracking speed of .105 compared to “only” .09 for the Zealot.

You brought the EFT BS in and made a false claim because you didn't understand what the numbers meant. I'm correcting you. Live with it. The fact remains: the Zealot you described has 2.7× better tracking than the Talos you described.

For the record, just so you have the actual numbers the next time you try to make a claim about which one is higher, your Talos tracks at .0002625 rad/s·m; the Zealot tracks at .00072 rad/s·m.
Cyzlaki
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#71 - 2012-01-13 04:06:34 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Cyzlaki wrote:
Your theoretical BS has no relevance outside of EFT
…which, funnily enough, makes it completely relevant to your incomplete EFT-based claim that the Talos track better just because it has a tracking speed of .105 compared to “only” .09 for the Zealot.

You brought the EFT BS in and made a false claim because you didn't understand what the numbers meant. I'm correcting you. Live with it. The fact remains: the Zealot you described has 2.7× better tracking than the Talos you described.

For the record, just so you have the actual numbers the next time you try to make a claim about which one is higher, your Talos tracks at .0002625 rad/s·m; the Zealot tracks at .00072 rad/s·m.

I never mentioned EFT. You asked for data, I gave you the numbers from in-game. You don't know how to fly in EVE, what made you think your BS would fly here?
ADMIRALPLANET DOMINATOR
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#72 - 2012-01-13 04:13:23 UTC
Cyzlaki's combat record - Ranked #1,636

Tippia's combat record - Ranked #185,750


Hmm I wonder who's information is more credible? Tippia's theory might be all well and good, but it simply doesn't translate out there on the field.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#73 - 2012-01-13 04:14:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Cyzlaki wrote:
I never mentioned EFT. You asked for data, I gave you the numbers from in-game.
…and made an EFT-warrior claim based on them: you compared numbers that are meaningless and incomparable on their own because they do not act alone. You reached a conclusion about which was the better number — a conclusion that was incorrect because of this massive case of EFT-warrioring.
Quote:
what made you think your BS would fly here?
The simple (and by you so so amply proven) fact that I know how tracking works and you don't.

The fact remains: the Zealot tracks better, as does Ship B for a reason that you probably can't guess — it is your claim to the contrary that is BS. If you ask nicely, I will show you why.

ADMIRALPLANET DOMINATOR wrote:
Hmm I wonder who's information is more credible? Tippia's theory might be all well and good, but it simply doesn't translate out there on the field.
Simple: mine, because his information and his initial claim is of a theoretical nature and lack an important factor in that theory.
Cyzlaki
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#74 - 2012-01-13 04:17:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Cyzlaki
Yawn, call me when you fly a Talos. Until you do, you haven't proven anything.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#75 - 2012-01-13 04:19:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Cyzlaki wrote:
Yawn, call me when you fly a Talos.

Ok. So do you want me to explain tracking to you and why the higher of your two numbers actually represents slower tracking?
Mister Kwong
Doomheim
#76 - 2012-01-13 04:19:48 UTC
Ah hell. I'll bite just so you two can stop bickering. Please explain to me Tippia and prettend I look as pretty as Czylaki :)
Cyzlaki
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#77 - 2012-01-13 04:21:49 UTC
Tippia wrote:
Cyzlaki wrote:
Yawn, call me when you fly a Talos.

Ok. So do you want me to explain tracking to you and why the higher of your two numbers actually represents slower tracking?

I'm sure your 38 kills from several years ago provided you with a wealth of practical PVP knowledge, making you an authority on this topic. Roll
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#78 - 2012-01-13 04:23:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Tippia
Mister Kwong wrote:
Ah hell. I'll bite just so you two can stop bickering. Please explain to me Tippia and prettend I look as pretty as Czylaki :)

The tracking formula is:
Chance to hit = 0.5^[(angular_v/tracking × sig_res/sig_rad)² + (max(0, range - optimal) / falloff)²]

There are two parts to this, each indicated by its parenthesized group. The goal here is to get the CTH as close to 100% as possible. This is done by reducing both terms within the brackets to 0: 0.5^(0+0) = 1, so as a result, you want everything as low as possible. The second group is the part dealing with range — it isn't particularly interesting here and simply calculates how far into falloff you are.

The first one is more interesting since it's the actual tracking part of the formula, so let's look at that one more closely.

angular_v/tracking × sig_res/sig_rad

Note that, here too, we have two groups. One deals with the turret's tracking compared to the target's movement (angular velocity is pitted against tracking speed); the other deals with the turret's ability to track small targets (signature resolution is pitted against signature radius).

Of the variables involved, two belong to the turret and two belong to the target. Since we're comparing the turrets, we normalise all target factors to 1. We can do this because the turret and the target are completely separate — there are no interaction effects between the variables involved. This gives us a tracking portion that is 1/tracking × sigres/1 — that's how well your turret tracks a target before we actually add the target itself to the equation.

So what is the effective tracking of your turret? Well, let's move those factors around so we collect all the turret attributes together into one group that we can then compare against the target, once it is introduced: 1/tracking × sigres/1 = 1/tracking × sigres = 1/(tracking/sigres)

And there we go: the effective tracking of a turret is, quite simply, tracking / sigres. The higher the sigres, the slower the gun effectively tracks. So if we have two guns that both track 1 rad/s, but where one has a sigres of 125 (i.e. it's a medium turret), whereas the other has a sigres of 400 (a large turret), the first one has an effective tracking of 1/125 = 0.008; the second one has an effective tracking of 1/400 = 0.0025. Even though both have the same number in the tracking speed field on their info sheets, the medium turret actually tracks 3.2× better due to the lower signature resolution.


So… time to get back to the numbers provided:
Talos: 0.105 rad/s, 400m sig res. Effective tracking .00026 rad/s·m.
Zealot: 0.09 rad/s, 125m sig res. Effective tracking .00072 rad/s·m.

The Zealot tracks ~2.7× better.

Hell, let's look at those other numbers he then invented:

Ship A has 0.60
Ship B has 0.03

Which one has better tracking?
Answer: ship B, because by a curious coincidence, it uses small turrets (sigres 40m) for an effective tracking of .00075 rad/s·m, whereas ship A uses XL turrets (sigres 1,000m) for an effective tracking of .00060 rad/s·m.
Cyzlaki wrote:
I'm sure your 38 kills from several years ago provided you with a wealth of practical PVP knowledge, making you an authority on this topic. Roll
Actually, it's my third-grade maths from decades ago and many years of comparative methods experience that makes me an authority on the topic.
Cyzlaki
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#79 - 2012-01-13 04:28:42 UTC
How many ships have you killed with a Talos again?
DarkAegix
Acetech Systems
#80 - 2012-01-13 04:31:00 UTC
I don't know whether to laugh or cry at this thread.