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[Citadels] Carriers

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Sgt Ocker
What Corp is it
#241 - 2016-04-06 13:52:11 UTC
Anthar Thebess wrote:
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
Miss 'Assassination' Cayman wrote:
Anthar Thebess wrote:
Bricks, scale well.
The more bricks you have the more things you can do, and stuff is more resistant to external force.

Exactly. There's a reason T3 fleets are so popular, and the reason isn't that they have amazing DPS.


But dreads with HAW fill that role better


And T3 fill it even better than that

Is not about will they have a use is about how many other things will out preform them if what ever use they have


Fighters can project fighters to frew thousand kilometers, dreads cannot shoot so far.
More EHP, better resist profile give you more time when something go wrong.
Dreads must be close to each other to project your damage to enemy, carriers can be spread on the grid 200km away from each other.

Your not serious are you?
Projecting damage a few thousand K away LOL.

These things can't warp and can only use their MWD for 20 seconds at a time with a 90 second cooldown - Just how long do you think it will take to move them, even a few thousand K ? I would imagine whatever you sent them that far to engage would either be gone or ready to kill them as they came into their range - Which likely is a lot more than the 8K range of your anti subcap fighters.


Sorry more ehp and better resists? Where did you see this - All carriers have had their EHP almost halved and as for resists, if you want any buffer at all your not getting any. Except on Devs favorite, the Archon. It seems to be the only carrier you can fit a half decent buffer tank with resists.

Carriers sitting spread out across a grid will have no logi and will need to prey they don't get called primary by anything bigger than a T1 cruiser.
Please get on SISI and play with the changes before assuming all is good and carriers aren't more than over sized ishtars with severe fitting issues and limited damage application.

My opinions are mine.

  If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - - Just don't bother Hating - I don't care

It really is getting harder and harder to justify $23 a month for each sub.
Rowells
Blackwater USA Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#242 - 2016-04-06 13:55:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Rowells
Morrigan LeSante wrote:
Anthar Thebess wrote:
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
Miss 'Assassination' Cayman wrote:
Anthar Thebess wrote:
Bricks, scale well.
The more bricks you have the more things you can do, and stuff is more resistant to external force.

Exactly. There's a reason T3 fleets are so popular, and the reason isn't that they have amazing DPS.


But dreads with HAW fill that role better


And T3 fill it even better than that

Is not about will they have a use is about how many other things will out preform them if what ever use they have


Fighters can project fighters to frew thousand kilometers, dreads cannot shoot so far.
More EHP, better resist profile give you more time when something go wrong.
Dreads must be close to each other to project your damage to enemy, carriers can be spread on the grid 200km away from each other.



No one and I mean no one is going to use carriers at extreme range. The fighters speed prevents it being remotely viable as well as the fact on grid probing is STILL not nerfed.


Drop them point blank is all that will happen.

You can pre-position fighters where you want them and burn away at the same time. Sure, probably won't see peopl 1000km away, but 100+ is neither impossible not unrealistic. It merely requires you have someone hold the target in place. Even at ~100 it's not too problematic if your target is stuck in siege or triage.

Also, with citadels as big as they are having someone land on the wrong side and get stuck from the citadel points is possible.
Sekeris
Order of Celestial Knights
#243 - 2016-04-06 14:01:30 UTC
Sgt Ocker wrote:
Your not serious are you?
Projecting damage a few thousand K away LOL.

These things can't warp and can only use their MWD for 20 seconds at a time with a 90 second cooldown - Just how long do you think it will take to move them, even a few thousand K ? I would imagine whatever you sent them that far to engage would either be gone or ready to kill them as they came into their range - Which likely is a lot more than the 8K range of your anti subcap fighters.


Sorry more ehp and better resists? Where did you see this - All carriers have had their EHP almost halved and as for resists, if you want any buffer at all your not getting any. Except on Devs favorite, the Archon. It seems to be the only carrier you can fit a half decent buffer tank with resists.

Carriers sitting spread out across a grid will have no logi and will need to prey they don't get called primary by anything bigger than a T1 cruiser.
Please get on SISI and play with the changes before assuming all is good and carriers aren't more than over sized ishtars with severe fitting issues and limited damage application.


This pretty much is true. You will have to lob these point blank, also to optimize your dps. Keep in mind that some abilities have limited charges and for heavy fighter to trundle 1000 km at 500m/s both way for a reload is just not going to happen. If you add Tidi to that you will be sat there waiting for a very very long time.
Marranar Amatin
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#244 - 2016-04-06 17:34:19 UTC
The general problems with carriers is, that there are features that sound good on paper, but just do not work at all due to the implementation.

For example being able to command fighters from thousands of kilometers away sounds nice. But ist just does not work because the fighters would take forever to get to the target, the fighters would do bad damage because they cant reload, and also the carrier is probably unsafer then if he were on grid, since he is easy to scan down with 10km signature and cant be helped from his own logis, while not having any serious defence for himself anymore.

I also like the idea of having several abilities to use. The "burst" attack with low ammunition is a good idea in principal. But it does not work at all because carrier damage is crap unless this ability is spammed, and because it can be spammed.
So this just makes the following playstyle mandatory: stay relatively close to your drones, spam the rocket salvo, use mwd to reload whenever its empty.
Thats not really an intersting way to use this, more an annoyance. But its the only useful way, because its the most effective. And without it the damage is just too bad. That you just increased the time for refueling is only a nerf to carrier dps and changes nothing about this. Seriously, stop nerfing carrier damage, it already is too low.

If you want to make this used as a "burst on demand" instead of "simple dps addition that has to be spammed", then greatly increase the dps of the main ability so that the dps of that ability is already useful, and then strongly decrease the dps and fire rate from the third ability.


Also I noticed that fighters have now resistances... thats nice, but I think the profiles got mixed up. Templar has kin and expl, while einherji has em and therm for example. Shouldnt it be the other way?

Also just as a reminder: The balance between the fighters is still bad. x% more speed does NOT equal x% more damage. If you compare einherji with firbolgs, its like the firbolgs get a free drone damage amplifier II, while the einherji get 2/3 of a drone navigation computer. thats niot balanced.
Lugh Crow-Slave
#245 - 2016-04-06 18:50:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Lugh Crow-Slave
Rowells wrote:

You can pre-position fighters where you want them and burn away at the same time. Sure, probably won't see peopl 1000km away, but 100+ is neither impossible not unrealistic. It merely requires you have someone hold the target in place. Even at ~100 it's not too problematic if your target is stuck in siege or triage.



except carriers are not built to deal damage to capitals so your target is not going to be in siege or triage

fighters are also very easy to kill so they are not going to last long if you "pre-position" and then fly away and once they are dead your going to have to send more out

it also leaves you vulnerable as the fighters now need to fly back to you or fly 100km to the other side of you should more targets show up

BLOPS Hauler
The 16.8km Bubble
Lugh Crow-Slave
#246 - 2016-04-06 18:56:37 UTC
Marranar Amatin wrote:


Also I noticed that fighters have now resistances... thats nice, but I think the profiles got mixed up. Templar has kin and expl, while einherji has em and therm for example. Shouldnt it be the other way?


no its just like with T2 ships

amarr fight the minmatar so they have resistances to counter them (kin expl) while the minmatar fight the amarr so have resistances set to counter them {em them) you have resist that match your enemies weapons not your allies

BLOPS Hauler
The 16.8km Bubble
Morrigan LeSante
Perkone
Caldari State
#247 - 2016-04-06 19:35:03 UTC
Too many quotes, had to snip

Rowells wrote:
Morrigan LeSante wrote:

No one and I mean no one is going to use carriers at extreme range. The fighters speed prevents it being remotely viable as well as the fact on grid probing is STILL not nerfed.


Drop them point blank is all that will happen.

You can pre-position fighters where you want them and burn away at the same time. Sure, probably won't see peopl 1000km away, but 100+ is neither impossible not unrealistic. It merely requires you have someone hold the target in place. Even at ~100 it's not too problematic if your target is stuck in siege or triage.

Also, with citadels as big as they are having someone land on the wrong side and get stuck from the citadel points is possible.



Reload says hello.

The problem is the flight time of the fighters, it is hilariously slow. You're talking minutes, MINUTES to traverse a few hundred km (before tidi too hah). You'll be lucky if the dread is still in siege the time they arrive and it sure as hell won't be when you pull for reload and travel BACK.
Zenafar
#248 - 2016-04-06 19:49:07 UTC
Btw is there any list of fixes for sisi?? like patch notes for TQ. So we can see what we can test.
Miss 'Assassination' Cayman
CK-0FF
Intergalactic Space Hobos
#249 - 2016-04-06 22:09:29 UTC
Morrigan LeSante wrote:
Too many quotes, had to snip

Rowells wrote:
Morrigan LeSante wrote:

No one and I mean no one is going to use carriers at extreme range. The fighters speed prevents it being remotely viable as well as the fact on grid probing is STILL not nerfed.


Drop them point blank is all that will happen.

You can pre-position fighters where you want them and burn away at the same time. Sure, probably won't see peopl 1000km away, but 100+ is neither impossible not unrealistic. It merely requires you have someone hold the target in place. Even at ~100 it's not too problematic if your target is stuck in siege or triage.

Also, with citadels as big as they are having someone land on the wrong side and get stuck from the citadel points is possible.



Reload says hello.

The problem is the flight time of the fighters, it is hilariously slow. You're talking minutes, MINUTES to traverse a few hundred km (before tidi too hah). You'll be lucky if the dread is still in siege the time they arrive and it sure as hell won't be when you pull for reload and travel BACK.

There's also the issue that fighters collide with citadels. So if you send them to something on the opposite side, you need to make sure they go around properly and don't get stuck.
Zekias
Synudyne
#250 - 2016-04-06 22:31:50 UTC
If carriers no longer have drones will they be able to engage an online POS with fighters?
Miss 'Assassination' Cayman
CK-0FF
Intergalactic Space Hobos
#251 - 2016-04-06 22:35:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Miss 'Assassination' Cayman
I think the carrier balance issues are because of three things:
1. Balancing both light and heavy fighters based on supers.
2. Unwillingness to give carriers equal or greater bonuses compared to supers.
3. A desire to keep carriers at similar damage potential to what they have now.

The fact that supers can use 2 heavies at the same time as their 3 lights complicates matters. That's a huge advantage that significantly affects balance concerns, but normal carriers don't have that ability. They're stuck with their 3 lights, and without damage and possibly speed bonuses rivaling or surpassing supers, they can't do their job.

It seems like someone wants to keep carriers around their current fighter damage potential, but how often are fighters actually used? Not often in PvP because they're not viable, and only a portion of the time for PvE. A lot of that is because of how fighters work and their cost, but the changes don't seem to be addressing that enough to make them attractive. It seems like dreads, supers, and titans are receiving quite a bit of versatility and potential utility roles while carriers are losing theirs and being left with a narrow focus on something they're not even good at. Unless they get more general damage output, they're not going to be a viable option in most situations due to the drawbacks of fighter speed and the ability to kill them.
Lugh Crow-Slave
#252 - 2016-04-06 23:06:39 UTC
Miss 'Assassination' Cayman wrote:
I think the carrier balance issues are because of three things:
1. Balancing both light and heavy fighters based on supers.
2. Unwillingness to give carriers equal or greater bonuses compared to supers.
3. A desire to keep carriers at similar damage potential to what they have now.

The fact that supers can use 2 heavies at the same time as their 3 lights complicates matters. That's a huge advantage that significantly affects balance concerns, but normal carriers don't have that ability. They're stuck with their 3 lights, and without damage and possibly speed bonuses rivaling or surpassing supers, they can't do their job.

It seems like someone wants to keep carriers around their current fighter damage potential, but how often are fighters actually used? Not often in PvP because they're not viable, and only a portion of the time for PvE. A lot of that is because of how fighters work and their cost, but the changes don't seem to be addressing that enough to make them attractive. It seems like dreads, supers, and titans are receiving quite a bit of versatility and potential utility roles while carriers are losing theirs and being left with a narrow focus on something they're not even good at. Unless they get more general damage output, they're not going to be a viable option in most situations due to the drawbacks of fighter speed and the ability to kill them.



and again if CCP does not want to give them more damage then give them more seed so they really can use their range or let them use a second support fighter with bonus to their effectiveness and give them 4 total tubes.


this will mean dreads can still do more DPS so can supers but carriers will either have a support or range advantage

BLOPS Hauler
The 16.8km Bubble
Gary Webb
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#253 - 2016-04-07 06:28:49 UTC
@CCPLarrakin can we get a list of regular drone modules that will no longer affect fighters (if any?)
Gary Webb
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#254 - 2016-04-07 06:44:57 UTC
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
so i just did the math 3 mill for one t1 light fighter ? thats 89 3 flights

and you have 3 flights of T2 at 189 mill

so a thanny needs to hold 609mill (if it goes all light fighters) thats over half the cost of the hull


How has ccp still not given us a statement on this yet? Carriers will be so prohibitively expensive they will never be used. So all these carriers/fighters will flood the market and sit at stupid high prices. I'm probably wrong, but hey. I'm feeling a bit pissed off that i stand to wind up in possession of like 10 bil worth of hulls and fighters that will be ultimately useless
CCP Larrikin
C C P
C C P Alliance
#255 - 2016-04-07 07:06:32 UTC
Sgt Ocker wrote:
Submitting bug reports or tickets - It takes them 3 to 4 WEEKS to acknowledge a ticket - Why bother.


Hi there. I want to clarify this point :)
Support Tickets and Bug Reports are two very different things. Please don't confuse the two. Please lodge bug reports (especially on Sisi)!

Game Designer | Team Phenomenon | https://twitter.com/CCP_Larrikin
CCP Larrikin
C C P
C C P Alliance
#256 - 2016-04-07 07:24:40 UTC
Gary Webb wrote:
@CCPLarrakin can we get a list of regular drone modules that will no longer affect fighters (if any?)

The only drone module that doesn't effect Fighters is the Drone Link Augmentor.
I think the description of all the modules has been changed to indicate that they also effect fighters. If you see one we've missed please bug report it!

Game Designer | Team Phenomenon | https://twitter.com/CCP_Larrikin
Sekeris
Order of Celestial Knights
#257 - 2016-04-07 08:24:41 UTC
CCP Larrikin wrote:
Gary Webb wrote:
@CCPLarrakin can we get a list of regular drone modules that will no longer affect fighters (if any?)

The only drone module that doesn't effect Fighters is the Drone Link Augmentor.
I think the description of all the modules has been changed to indicate that they also effect fighters. If you see one we've missed please bug report it!


Hi Larrikin,

Any word on why the Nid has less CPU then the thanny? The list of CPU output both between the carriers and the difference from carrier to super ready a bit off. Archon to Aeon is +100 tf Thanny to nyx is +75 tf Chim to Wyvern is +150 tf but the Nid to Hel is +250 tf.

~Seke
Sgt Ocker
What Corp is it
#258 - 2016-04-07 09:29:06 UTC
CCP Larrikin wrote:
Sgt Ocker wrote:
Submitting bug reports or tickets - It takes them 3 to 4 WEEKS to acknowledge a ticket - Why bother.


Hi there. I want to clarify this point :)
Support Tickets and Bug Reports are two very different things. Please don't confuse the two. Please lodge bug reports (especially on Sisi)!
Problem is with the mess that is currently SISI - What exactly is a bug.

My opinions are mine.

  If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - - Just don't bother Hating - I don't care

It really is getting harder and harder to justify $23 a month for each sub.
Miss 'Assassination' Cayman
CK-0FF
Intergalactic Space Hobos
#259 - 2016-04-07 10:43:47 UTC
Sgt Ocker wrote:
CCP Larrikin wrote:
Sgt Ocker wrote:
Submitting bug reports or tickets - It takes them 3 to 4 WEEKS to acknowledge a ticket - Why bother.


Hi there. I want to clarify this point :)
Support Tickets and Bug Reports are two very different things. Please don't confuse the two. Please lodge bug reports (especially on Sisi)!
Problem is with the mess that is currently SISI - What exactly is a bug.


That is an excellent question, but if in doubt send a bug report. It's much better for someone to spend a minute reading a report and determine it's not a bug than to let actual bugs slip through.
Marranar Amatin
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#260 - 2016-04-07 11:19:27 UTC
CCP Larrikin wrote:
Gary Webb wrote:
@CCPLarrakin can we get a list of regular drone modules that will no longer affect fighters (if any?)

The only drone module that doesn't effect Fighters is the Drone Link Augmentor.
I think the description of all the modules has been changed to indicate that they also effect fighters. If you see one we've missed please bug report it!



Could we have the same information for stacking penalties please? Which modules are supposed to have stacking penalties?
The ones that have are not identical with the ones that have them in the description. So how is it supposed to be?