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Insta-undock BM Verus A Less Then 2 Second Align Time
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Adeline Lachance
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#1 - 2016-04-03 18:57:10 UTC
It seems to me that an effective tactic for ships with a less than two second align time would be to take advantage of the thirty second invulnerability timer after undocking, press CTRL-SPACE, and wait for their velocity to reach zero before warping, especially if it was known that a course correction would be necessary.

Given my understanding of how the server tick works, primarily from https://www.themittani.com/features/understanding-eve-online-server-tick, it doesn't appear like there would be any practical difference, in terms of getting caught, between this and using an "insta-undock" BM.
Chribba
Otherworld Enterprises
Otherworld Empire
#2 - 2016-04-03 19:40:44 UTC
I was under the impression that ctrl+space breaks the invul?

But also the further away you are from enemy the less risk of getting stuck. Even with <2s there's a small but potential risk of getting locked -or you can even get bumped. Insta-undock mean you will warp in <1s as you're already aligned and at full speed towards your BM

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Shae Tadaruwa
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#3 - 2016-04-03 20:50:44 UTC
Chribba wrote:
I was under the impression that ctrl+space breaks the invul?

But also the further away you are from enemy the less risk of getting stuck. Even with <2s there's a small but potential risk of getting locked -or you can even get bumped. Insta-undock mean you will warp in <1s as you're already aligned and at full speed towards your BM

No Ctrl+Space does not break the invul.

Dracvlad - "...Your intel is free intel, all you do is pay for it..." && "...If you warp on the same path as a cloaked ship, you'll make a bookmark at exactly the same spot as the cloaky camper..."
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
#4 - 2016-04-04 00:11:41 UTC
Adeline Lachance wrote:
It seems to me that an effective tactic for ships with a less than two second align time would be to take advantage of the thirty second invulnerability timer after undocking, press CTRL-SPACE, and wait for their velocity to reach zero before warping, especially if it was known that a course correction would be necessary.

Given my understanding of how the server tick works, primarily from https://www.themittani.com/features/understanding-eve-online-server-tick, it doesn't appear like there would be any practical difference, in terms of getting caught, between this and using an "insta-undock" BM.

Theoretically, coming to a complete stop and then warping in 2 seconds should work.

But bear in mind that stations do kick you out at velocity above your max speed. This means that you may not be able to slow down quickly enough.
Moreover, you might be outside of the docking range of the station (500m) when you come to a complete stop, which puts you at risk if your tactic doesn't work.

With the insta-undock, you at least have an opportunity to re-dock if your first attempt doesn't work.


And to confirm... when you undock, you are invulnerable until 30 seconds pass or you perform an action other than "full stop"... whichever comes first.

How did you Veterans start?
Eternus8lux8lucis
Guardians of the Gate
RAZOR Alliance
#5 - 2016-04-04 03:46:55 UTC
The other thing is if your insta bm is off grid having whoever follow you around is much less likely as often they have to guess where your going.

There are also, as others have said, small chances of getting caught by stopping and realigning. Ping times, server lag and desync being some of them.

The 30sec invul timer isnt always 30sec as Ive found out the hard way exiting Jita.Roll

Have you heard anything I've said?

You said it's all circling the drain, the whole universe. Right?

That's right.

Had to end sometime.
Nam Dnilb
Universal Frog
#6 - 2016-04-04 05:44:30 UTC
The invuln-timer is hard to gauge; Does it start at the black screen or maybe when you can see your ship? My Astero still moved at 10m/s after 30 seconds. Just timed that with a stop-watch.

Anyway, I had the same idea as you and one day decided to do this little dance in front of the gankers on the Amarr undock. I was suspect, so I had their full attention. I lost ship and pod in two seconds, so I cannot recommend this tactic to anyone, but am always interested in research data.
Dilligafmofo
3WAYFOUNDATIONS
New Miner's Union
#7 - 2016-04-04 07:34:32 UTC
Chribba wrote:
I was under the impression that ctrl+space breaks the invul?

But also the further away you are from enemy the less risk of getting stuck. Even with <2s there's a small but potential risk of getting locked -or you can even get bumped. Insta-undock mean you will warp in <1s as you're already aligned and at full speed towards your BM



Forgive Chribba this error folks, he doesn't rely on invul at undocks, he is protected by his awesome !
Jacob Holland
Weyland-Vulcan Industries
#8 - 2016-04-04 07:44:58 UTC
Nam Dnilb wrote:
The invuln-timer is hard to gauge; Does it start at the black screen or maybe when you can see your ship? My Astero still moved at 10m/s after 30 seconds. Just timed that with a stop-watch.

Quote:
The 30sec invul timer isnt always 30sec as Ive found out the hard way exiting Jita.Roll

The invlunerability window is designed (in the same way as gate cloak) to cover you for situations like Jita - while you're unable to do stuff because you haven't loaded everything (because there's a smartbomber sitting out on the undock and there's therefore quite a lot happening for example) people are unable to do stuff to you... It is my understanding that the timer begins when the server switches you from the station to the system environment (which makes it difficult to time)
Primary This Rifter
Mutual Fund of the Something
#9 - 2016-04-04 08:10:35 UTC
I've tried this before. You don't slow down fast enough.
Adeline Lachance
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#10 - 2016-04-04 22:22:09 UTC
Primary This Rifter wrote:
I've tried this before. You don't slow down fast enough.


Thanks. This is very good information. I put the referenced fit in Pyfa with all skills set to V. That ship had a 1.96 second align time. However, one interesting thing to note is that the combination of medium shield extenders, hyperspatial velocity optimizers, and inertial stabilizers, increased the signature radius from 34 to 71.9. I wonder how things would have turned out in a frigate whose radius had been, say, 41?
Adeline Lachance
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#11 - 2016-04-04 22:27:43 UTC
Thanks everyone.

I get the points being made about the difficulty of a complete stop given that you start from greater than maximum velocity combined with the uncertainty of timing the invulnerability window. If you can't come to a complete stop in a safe manner before warping, then this tactic mightily loses appeal.

What brought this up was reading about how folks apparently had once set up a line of mobile depots at regular intervals directly along the "insta-undock" line from Jita. This requires an uncommon dedication, I think. Also, I suspect this wouldn't have been too much trouble for a fast frigate (especially considering their targets were most likely transports) with a sufficiently distant BM, although you would probably get uncloaked.
Barrogh Habalu
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#12 - 2016-04-05 06:45:22 UTC
In any case, insta-undock allows you to pull this off with any ship, so that's already good incentive to have one.

Future of T3 cruisers - multi-tool they aspired to be instead of sledgehammer they have become
Lady Ayeipsia
BlueWaffe
#13 - 2016-04-05 14:25:20 UTC
Adeline Lachance wrote:
Thanks everyone.

I get the points being made about the difficulty of a complete stop given that you start from greater than maximum velocity combined with the uncertainty of timing the invulnerability window. If you can't come to a complete stop in a safe manner before warping, then this tactic mightily loses appeal.

What brought this up was reading about how folks apparently had once set up a line of mobile depots at regular intervals directly along the "insta-undock" line from Jita. This requires an uncommon dedication, I think. Also, I suspect this wouldn't have been too much trouble for a fast frigate (especially considering their targets were most likely transports) with a sufficiently distant BM, although you would probably get uncloaked.


Not as hard as you think. Remember there is a moon and I believe a planet that both can be used for insta undock from the Jita 4-4 trade station. Just use a blockade runner equiped with a micro jump drive. Align to the moon, jump and you could spacebtge depots about 100km apart with each jump.
Conrad Makbure
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#14 - 2016-04-05 16:29:20 UTC
Undock BMs are valuable and much easier to setup now we have the option for manual control, WASD are mine. Still faster than waiting for the ship to reach zero velocity, for me at least.

You can get bumped in either case though.