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Discussion Thread: How to Fix HiSec Warfare, Post Ideas Here

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Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
#61 - 2012-01-12 18:43:16 UTC
Lyrrashae wrote:
Petrus Blackshell wrote:
Lyrrashae wrote:

The dedicated miners/industrialists/NPC'ers I "grew up" with from the end of Empyrean Age were a much harder, smarter, more situationally-aware breed, ones I was honoured to fly with and learn from...Where did they all go?


They had to haul their loads uphill both there and back, and they were happy with it, got it.

They are probably still here, but they're so quiet among the rabble of other carebears that they go unnoticed.



It does seem that way, doesn't it.

And the rabble-rousers are always the loudest, because well...that's what they do.

If this increasing safe-pass for carebears is what I think it is--CCP trying to make the game more attractive to more people, for a badly needed cash-flow-infusion--then I hope it happens quickly, and that CCP puts that money to good use. Because from what I've seen, the soft-n-squishy new breed (and yes, this descriptor applies to a lot of "PvP'ers" I've met, just as much as it does to carebears!) types tend not to stay in EVE too long, less than a year at the most, many less than 6 months.

Where's the steady money to make up for those there-and-gone subs going to come from, once the soft little whinging, over-entitled bitches who refuse to try and "get" EVE come from?


From bittervets who are happy the whiners are gone, obviously. I'm not saying that hisec warfare (and other new 'easy-mode' things) don't need to be fixed, but sometimes the whining bittervets are worse than the whining self-entitled newbies.

Accidentally The Whole Frigate - For-newbies blog (currently on pause)
Lyrrashae
Hellstar Towing and Recovery
#62 - 2012-01-12 18:58:45 UTC
Petrus Blackshell wrote:
Lyrrashae wrote:
Petrus Blackshell wrote:
Lyrrashae wrote:

The dedicated miners/industrialists/NPC'ers I "grew up" with from the end of Empyrean Age were a much harder, smarter, more situationally-aware breed, ones I was honoured to fly with and learn from...Where did they all go?


They had to haul their loads uphill both there and back, and they were happy with it, got it.

They are probably still here, but they're so quiet among the rabble of other carebears that they go unnoticed.



It does seem that way, doesn't it.

And the rabble-rousers are always the loudest, because well...that's what they do.

If this increasing safe-pass for carebears is what I think it is--CCP trying to make the game more attractive to more people, for a badly needed cash-flow-infusion--then I hope it happens quickly, and that CCP puts that money to good use. Because from what I've seen, the soft-n-squishy new breed (and yes, this descriptor applies to a lot of "PvP'ers" I've met, just as much as it does to carebears!) types tend not to stay in EVE too long, less than a year at the most, many less than 6 months.

Where's the steady money to make up for those there-and-gone subs going to come from, once the soft little whinging, over-entitled bitches who refuse to try and "get" EVE come from?


From bittervets who are happy the whiners are gone, obviously. I'm not saying that hisec warfare (and other new 'easy-mode' things) don't need to be fixed, but sometimes the whining bittervets are worse than the whining self-entitled newbies.


Yeah, but EVE's going to need a steady influx of some new subs over the years...Compromise and balance--along with a much more comprehensive new player tutorial, especially regarding EVE's general nature, aggression-mechanics, and some way of explaining the meta-game and how it is used--are needed here.

Nullsec bittervets, most comical bittervets, by the way Blink

That lot are the biggest "carebears" of all, imho.

Ni.
Lyrrashae
Hellstar Towing and Recovery
#63 - 2012-01-12 19:00:20 UTC
Kolya Medz wrote:
I wouldn't mind being able to outbid corps and alliances that wardeck me.


Expand on this, please?

Ni.
Lyrrashae
Hellstar Towing and Recovery
#64 - 2012-01-12 19:26:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Lyrrashae
MatrixSkye Mk2 wrote:
[...]
You don't have to explicitly say you hate them. The way you speak of them alone speaks volumes. You come in here requesting mechanics that would make the killing of carebears even more "lol-worthy" for you but hide under the pretense that you'd like to keep the thread troll-free.


Ever heard of irony/flippancy? Sense of humour, you should get one.

But seriously, now:

There are carebears, and there are carebears--see one of my posts further up, but basically, old-school "fighting bears," as I like to call them--you might also call them "carebears with teeth"--who understand EVE as it used to be, as it should be, and learn to thrive within it have my deep respect--I flew with, and learned this game, from many such, and was honoured--and in hindsight, very, very glad--to have done so.

The "other" kind of carebear, the one that feels entitled to having everything handed to it without risk, without having to earn it, and without having to take steps to protect it...yes, those do irk me, indeed. Those generally do not stay in EVE, but the pussification/dumbing down of this game will stay, long after they've un-installed the client.

MatrixSkye wrote:
The trolling started the minute you posted this thread... with you.


If you seriously think that asking for ideas, in a manner that remains reasonably civil and constructive, is "trolling," just because you don't happen to approve of the point of view of the person asking for them, then well..

....I guess that banner on Something Awful I once saw years ago (I thought of joining at one point, but :Goons:Ugh) is right: "The Internet makes you stupid."


MatrixSkye wrote:
By the way, the "core concept of Eve" has always included hi sec and has always operated under the assumption that it is supposed to be safer than lo/null sec. That you have a problem with the safety of carebears in hi sec does not mean that the "core concept of Eve" is in peril. That you're using it as an excuse to build up your biased claim is just ridiculous.

If you truly believe hi sec is safe I suggest you go mine in hi sec with a hulk for a few weeks. And then come back and tell us how safe it is.


Quite right, quite right:

HiSec is suppose to be safer. Not 100% safe. I see CCP moving in the direction of the latter, and feel it is very, very bad for the future of EVE: Those squishy little entitlement-bears who might get attracted by "EVE on easier-mode" generally don't stay long--6-8 months, from what I can see--but the damage their bleating does to our game? That will last longer.

I never skilled into a Hulk, but I have mined on occasion in cruisers and T I barges--it was perfectly safe:

Because I fitted a tank on my ship, and was at the keyboard, paying attention to my surroundings. What got me was the screaming boredom, long before any Arty-Thrasher fleets showed on-grid. And that was before I learned how to probe--since then, what very little mining I do is in Grav sites, with the d-scanner open and set to short-range to catch probes whilst minimising the usual hisec system clutter.

The instant I see probes, I align to something, and hover over the "warp-to" button...It's called "maintaining situational awareness." Something all humans can do, with a little practice and the right attitude.

Ni.
Wolodymyr
Breaking Ambitions
#65 - 2012-01-12 19:41:42 UTC
I think highsec needs some opt in risk, so that carebears could slowly ease themselves into the game.

Take for example the player owned customs office. If you set one up you can skip the 10% tax but now it's something out in space that can be shot at.

In highsec you should be allowed to put yourself at increasing amounts of risk for increasing amounts of reward. A while ago I wrote a wall of text post about this but it got overrun by what I assume are twelve year olds.
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=46150&find=unread

I honestly think PoCo based sov is a good idea https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=1417544
Lyrrashae
Hellstar Towing and Recovery
#66 - 2012-01-12 20:03:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Lyrrashae
Wolodymyr wrote:
I think highsec needs some opt in risk, so that carebears could slowly ease themselves into the game.

Take for example the player owned customs office. If you set one up you can skip the 10% tax but now it's something out in space that can be shot at.

In highsec you should be allowed to put yourself at increasing amounts of risk for increasing amounts of reward. A while ago I wrote a wall of text post about this but it got overrun by what I assume are twelve year olds.
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=46150&find=unread


This is good...

But in a way, we already have this--Red v Blue, can-flipping, ninja-looting/salvaging, war-decs, or just jetting a can labelled "(Your ship-type here) 1v1" outside the Boundless Creation Factory in Hek, to name just a few.

The real problem, I think, starts with the New Player Experience, and that it doesn't say one damned thing about any of this, or the mechanics attendant thereunto, beyond a quick blurb about the risk of losing your ore whilst jet-can mining.

That really needs to change, in my studied and not-inexpert opinion Blink.

At every stage of the NPE, there should be an explicit under-current that really brings it home that you are never 100% safe anywhere, whilst explaining exactly how this is the case mechanically, why this is the case generally (IE what EVE is really all about), and showing how to mitigate that risk, and that all players can quite easily do so. Breeding a harder, much more "aware" player, right from the off, in other words.

The current NPE--with the exception of the "Advanced Military" tutorial arc, and even that provides the two ships you are required to lose in two of the missions for you, which it shouldn't--still steers people towards either mining or missioning almost exclusively--this is a legacy thing that needed to evolve 2-3 years ago, but hasn't.

So.

New Big Idea(TM):

Re-vamp the NPE, so that the real nature of EVE is stressed at all levels, and how to mitigate those risks is explicitly shown (and bring back Aura's old voice, plx, CCP, kthxbai.).

Ni.
FloppieTheBanjoClown
Arcana Imperii Ltd.
#67 - 2012-01-12 20:06:33 UTC
I've been playing for a little less than two years (not a bittervet, but not a noob either). The first 15 months was spent as a PVE/industrial carebear in a small corp of characters of a similar age. We were on the receiving end of a number of wardecs. The past 3-4 months I've been in The Skunkworks, on the other side of the high sec wars. I say all that so you understand that I have perspective on this issue.

Major problems I see in highsec wardecs:


  • Newer players don't understand war or aggression. When we encountered our first war we were completely ignorant of how things worked. Eve's in-game help and website were completely useless; we had to resort to third-party sources of information just to find out basic things. Even then the information wasn't always useful; expansions and patches have rendered some of the most legitimate-looking information inaccurate.

    • How to fix it: There needs to be a tutorial arc that teaches players about corporations, wars, and aggression mechanics. They shouldn't have to find out the hard way exactly how long it takes for them to dock in a station after they shoot at someone. Things that are considered common knowledge among experienced players need to be made available to new players without them having to know to look for it.

  • Locator agents, as much as I use them today, are absurd. If someone moves 20+ jumps from Caldari to Gallente space in order to evade someone, it just seems silly to me that a single locator can tell you exactly where they've gone. I would

    • How to fix it: Limit locator agent information. If a player is in a system where that agent's corporation has an office, give an immediate response of where they are and what they're doing. If they're in the empire that corporation operates in but aren't in a system with an office, give a response delayed by several minutes: "Our sources in the Empire indicate they were in ______ at 12:34". If they've left that empire's area of influence, give a delayed response indicating the last system of that empire they were seen in: "They were seen leaving the Empire's territory from ______ at 12:34"

  • Neutral support ships get a risk-free pass. As it stands right now, risk averse people pretending to be PVPers like to posture outside of stations with neutral logis in a safe point. This wouldn't be a problem, except that if I were to engage those logis they would simply dock up.

    • How to fix it: Transfer any aggression timers from ships in combat to the ships supporting them. This will mean that neutral logis are no longer free to escape at the push of a button, and must be used more more carefully.

  • Dec-scraping. The ability to excuse yourself from a wardec someone paid for, at no cost, with no risk.

    • How to fix it: Make wardecs sticky. Don't transfer them from corps to alliances. If I wardec Corp A and they join Alliance B and then quit, my wardec should stay on Corp A. Alliance B should simply be at war with me so long as Corp A is a member, plus a cooldown period afterward. Furthermore, I think the wardec system would be much more useful if you could wardec specific corps even if they are inside an alliance. If your goal is to get them kicked out or get what they have, you shouldn't have to wardec the alliance only to see your real target drop, forcing you to wardec them again.

  • Corp hopping. I'm not talking about the in-space corp hopping that is a known exploit. That's a bug that should be patched. I'm talking about jumping between corps to get into more fights. I do this myself. The problem is that it still allows people to be blindsided by a swarm of enemies who were neutrals just a moment ago.

    • How to fix it: I'm not really sure, but I do think it should be looked at. I'd suggest a one-hour cooldown when joining or leaving a corp to slow down the corp hopping and make it harder to surprise wartargets, but it would be difficult to work out all the possible abuses of that system.

  • There was something else I was thinking of the other day that I can't recall right now. If I remember it, I'll put it here.


End wall of text.

Founding member of the Belligerent Undesirables movement.
Lyrrashae
Hellstar Towing and Recovery
#68 - 2012-01-12 22:01:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Lyrrashae
^^What Floppie said.^^

Especially the first part, been there/done it, also from both "ends." There really should be a whole component of the NPE dedicated to hisec war/aggression mechanics.

Ni.
Andiedeath
We Aim To MisBehave
Wild Geese.
#69 - 2012-01-13 05:18:31 UTC
Havegun Willtravel wrote:
The best way to fix High Sec PvP is to start wtih the truth.

While you seek to berate ' carebears' for wanting a " safe-ish " high sec are you not guilty of the exact same behavior ? Are you not basicaly asking how to improve your 'safe-ish ' pvp environment to make it even easier to get risk free kills ?

"and think how much more lol-worthy Hulkageddon, and suicide-ganking in general would be if this were an option "

Case in point, this ^ is not PvP. Ganking has absolutely nothing to do with PvP. If anything ganking is the polar opposite of PvP and needs to be curbed.

The best way to fix high sec pvp is to move it to low sec where it belongs.

As for War Decks, add a couple zero's to the war deck fee, lets say 75 mil for a start. And an additional fee for each deck a corp launches in a season or year over a certain number, say 25 per year and the fee + 25 mil for each additional. This should start to bring some intelligence back to war decking. It will be used as it was truely intended, as an economic tool not an excuse for risk averse whiners to grief defenceless targets.

Allow podding for GCC regardless of the players or systems sec status. You do the crime you do the time. Also no docking up and hiding till your timer is up.

I agree high sec needs to be less safe. I'd just like to see that danger spread around a bit more evenly.

Edit: Inappropriate part removed, CCP Phantom.


Agreed in Full. Griefing/Ganking Corps are Carebears themselves!

Director

Sefem Velox

INGAME CHANNEL: Sefem Public
Neo160
Bare Minimum Bandits
I Showed You My Probes... Please Respond...
#70 - 2012-01-13 06:30:51 UTC
i think a very SIMPLE solution to help balance wardecs is simply this: just like neutral reps v.s concord get concord aggro, in the same way, neutral repping a wardeced individual grants a 15 minute aggression timer that inherits the neutral repped individuals wardecs, that way, enemy targets gain kill rights on neutral reps as if they were can thieves, can be dealt with without concord getting involved, and if they shoot back, concord will still stand by and simply watch.

furthermore, there should be an in-game warning that warns players against giving random people reps, as they may inherit the targets wardecs. and last but not least, neutral repping a a person who has kill rights against them should give the repper an aggression timer, and give those who have kill rights on the repped target, kill rights on the neutral repper.

as far as Dec Shield, I'm gonna agree with FloppieTheBanjoClown (that name is awesome btw) :

"Make wardecs sticky. Don't transfer them from corps to alliances. If I wardec Corp A and they join Alliance B and then quit, my wardec should stay on Corp A. Alliance B should simply be at war with me so long as Corp A is a member, plus a cooldown period afterward. Furthermore, I think the wardec system would be much more useful if you could wardec specific corps even if they are inside an alliance. If your goal is to get them kicked out or get what they have, you shouldn't have to wardec the alliance only to see your real target drop, forcing you to wardec them again."

i agree with all that except that directly targeting a member of an alliance. doing so should give all of them kill rights to you, so it seems kinda redundant.
Chujo Jong
Galactic Empire Corporation
#71 - 2012-01-13 10:13:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Chujo Jong
Lyrrashae wrote:

The dedicated miners/industrialists/NPC'ers I "grew up" with from the end of Empyrean Age were a much harder, smarter, more situationally-aware breed, ones I was honoured to fly with and learn from...Where did they all go?


imo, They, like myself (this char is a re-roll) are still doing it, but after corp after corp dwindles down from failures in structure these people remain in either large well known corps that don't recruit or small corps with a selective few of Empy Age Vets :)