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[Citadels] Carriers

First post
Author
Lugh Crow-Slave
#101 - 2016-03-31 21:33:44 UTC
Syrias Bizniz wrote:
The change to 5% dmg is good. No need to fear carriers stepping into Super's terrain anyways. While the skillbonuses of the Nid / Thanatos now get the same damage than Aeon / Wyvern, the latter can field 5 squadrons at once and - which is way more important - can field heavy fighters. Nidhoggur should be a viable choice now compared to the Chimera, on the Thanatos I'm not sure yet.


So, right now with the added damage, it looks like this:

Shield: Chimera, the tanky one, Nidhoggur, the DPS one. A good tradeoff in my opinion.
Armor: Archon, the... better one, sadly. I'll explain why.

Carriers main use will be: DPS. After stripping them from their logistics role, all they can do is apply pressure with their fighter squadrons. While on shield setups, the midslots are used for tanking and the lowslots are used for damage, on armor the lowslots get used for both, tanking AND damage. Thus, the armor carrier that has the most "effective lowslots" is the better one.
In case of the Archon, it has 7 lowslots and 1 "imaginary" or "effective" lowslot through it's hullbonus: 20% resistance on Carrier V, which is very close to an EANM - thus the "effective" lowslot.
The Thanatos has 6 lowslots and 1 effective lowslot in form of it's Fighter Damage Bonus, being slightly above a T2 DDA.

My suggestion would be now: Take away one Highslot from the Thanatos and add it as an additional lowslot, bringing it to 8 effective lowslots aswell and thus on par with the Archon.
If fitting for maximum tank, the Archon would still win and be the tanky choice, as it's having one effective lowslot that is not stacking penalized and will thus reach higher overall resistances. If fitting for maximum dps, it's the other way round, the Thanatos now has the advantage because one of it's effective lowslots is not stacking penalized. When fitting for a balance between dps and tank, they'd come out roughly equal.
They would be differenciated through their High- and Midslot layout though, with the Archon having more "offensive" options - a utility high is usually used for modules like Nos, Neut, Smartbomb, Fighter Support Unit, etc. etc..
The Thanatos would be more versatile however, being able to fit an additional Drone Nav Comp for example, or go for a light shield tank with a maximum dps / mobility setup.

Overall, the move of one high to one low on the Thanatos will put it in line with the Archon and making it NOT the worse choice every time. It would make it an interesting choice instead.

Maybe this could also be adapted to the Nyx and resolve the issues with that one.

What do you guys think?


to be honest i find the than gets more than enough tank using shields but if you really want 2 armor 2 shield i suppose this is an option :/
Primary This Rifter
Mutual Fund of the Something
#102 - 2016-03-31 21:34:27 UTC
My proposal to fix this is very simple:

Don't allow supers to use support fighters. They'll get their superweapons instead. Carriers will be the only platform to use support fighters.
Lugh Crow-Slave
#103 - 2016-03-31 21:37:15 UTC
Syrias Bizniz wrote:
Also, @Lugh Crow-Slave,

i see that you often mention how the Nid/Thanny would be the better carriers as they would simply kill off the Archon/Chims fighters and thus win. First of all, this would only be true in a 1v1 carrier dogfight.
Second, it will not always boil down to this. There are so many variables, ranging from highslot modules to fighter layout (How many interceptors do you carry, how many support fighters, how many light fighters - An Archon with a full rack of interceptor fighters would wipe out any Thanatos' mixed fighterbay with ease), that you simply can't claim this point to be the truth.
There's also a thing called micromanagement, which you can see already when 2 droneboats fight each other. Usually, the droneboat that has it's drones close to itself - and in scoop range - is at an advantage, as taking drones (or: fighters) out of the combat that are being shot is a lot more easy that way.

Now add in other ships aswell, such as 2 rifters on one carrier's side and suddenly the whole outcome of the fight would be different. You couldn't imagine this now, 2 rifters helping a carrier making it suddenly beat another carrier, that simply isn't really possible right now. On April 27th, it is.


i dont mean in a carrier on carrier fight im talking a small group of desi able to make very quick work of fighters

if it comes to that the only way carriers can hurt each other is by killing fighters they will not do enough dps to kill each other
Lugh Crow-Slave
#104 - 2016-03-31 21:38:03 UTC
Primary This Rifter wrote:
My proposal to fix this is very simple:

Don't allow supers to use support fighters. They'll get their superweapons instead. Carriers will be the only platform to use support fighters.



YEAH \o/

hear that guys carriers get usless fighters
Syrias Bizniz
some random local shitlords
#105 - 2016-03-31 21:48:18 UTC
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:


to be honest i find the than gets more than enough tank using shields but if you really want 2 armor 2 shield i suppose this is an option :/



5 midslots make for a good tank in your eyes? One goes for the propmod, without that you might aswell selfdestruct. Now, if you fitted an MWD, you'll probably want a capbattery aswell, or maybe a capbooster. So, from your 5 slots, 2 are gone. Now you can fit a CSE and 2 Invuls, wow, what a tank... It's one weak ass tank.
Marranar Amatin
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#106 - 2016-03-31 21:55:58 UTC
Primary This Rifter wrote:
My proposal to fix this is very simple:

Don't allow supers to use support fighters. They'll get their superweapons instead. Carriers will be the only platform to use support fighters.



support fighters are mostly useless, so there still would be no reason to use normal carriers. I would suggest to dissallow light attack fighters on supers instead, while increasing the light fighters effectiveness against subcaps (just generally too low at the moment) and decreasing the effeciveness of heavy fighters against subcaps

Supercaps would still be very good against large subcaps, as heavy fighters do insane damage to subcaps, but the anit-subcap focus would be more on the carrier.


To the slotlayout problem:
I think the main problem just is that right now you want to fit either tank or dda. You dont want scram, web, painter, or any of that stuff on a carrier, thats what the rest of the fleet is for. You want dps with your fighters. And here lowslots are just better, because you can fit dda. In midslots there are only navcomps, where you cant use too many (and they compete with FSU with the penalty anyway), and tracking links. Which are super weak right now (assuming its not a bug that they work at all). In my test they gave a 5% damage increase against small and fast targets... thats really bad comparing it with DDA, and also tracking enhancer for the low slots have the same effect but BETTER. Around 7% in my test.
Carriers jus need something good for midslots, than the problem is solved. On Tranq this was no problem, as tracking links had a real effect.. maybe just make them useful for carriers again?
Lugh Crow-Slave
#107 - 2016-03-31 22:00:50 UTC
Syrias Bizniz wrote:
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:


to be honest i find the than gets more than enough tank using shields but if you really want 2 armor 2 shield i suppose this is an option :/



5 midslots make for a good tank in your eyes? One goes for the propmod, without that you might aswell selfdestruct. Now, if you fitted an MWD, you'll probably want a capbattery aswell, or maybe a capbooster. So, from your 5 slots, 2 are gone. Now you can fit a CSE and 2 Invuls, wow, what a tank... It's one weak ass tank.


why do you need the prop mod?

remove that and you no longer need the cap booster giving you enough mids to fit a 1.2mill ehp tank more than enough yo handle sub caps
Lugh Crow-Slave
#108 - 2016-03-31 22:03:38 UTC
Marranar Amatin wrote:
Primary This Rifter wrote:
My proposal to fix this is very simple:

Don't allow supers to use support fighters. They'll get their superweapons instead. Carriers will be the only platform to use support fighters.



support fighters are mostly useless, so there still would be no reason to use normal carriers. I would suggest to dissallow light attack fighters on supers instead, while increasing the light fighters effectiveness against subcaps (just generally too low at the moment) and decreasing the effeciveness of heavy fighters against subcaps

Supercaps would still be very good against large subcaps, as heavy fighters do insane damage to subcaps, but the anit-subcap focus would be more on the carrier.


To the slotlayout problem:
I think the main problem just is that right now you want to fit either tank or dda. You dont want scram, web, painter, or any of that stuff on a carrier, thats what the rest of the fleet is for. You want dps with your fighters. And here lowslots are just better, because you can fit dda. In midslots there are only navcomps, where you cant use too many (and they compete with FSU with the penalty anyway), and tracking links. Which are super weak right now (assuming its not a bug that they work at all). In my test they gave a 5% damage increase against small and fast targets... thats really bad comparing it with DDA, and also tracking enhancer for the low slots have the same effect but BETTER. Around 7% in my test.
Carriers jus need something good for midslots, than the problem is solved. On Tranq this was no problem, as tracking links had a real effect.. maybe just make them useful for carriers again?


a fighter mid that adds to the effect of E-war? fits with e-war being in the mids and god knows the e-war fighters need something
Zenafar
#109 - 2016-03-31 22:36:24 UTC
I'm not sure but i didn't notice that FSU reduce ROF below 5 sec. In fact i think FSU extending cycle right now. Used Firbolgs.
So we lose DPS with each FSU. Maybe I'm wrong
Marranar Amatin
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#110 - 2016-03-31 22:43:12 UTC
No, you are right, the bug is already known.
Lugh Crow-Slave
#111 - 2016-03-31 22:48:04 UTC
Zenafar wrote:
I'm not sure but i didn't notice that FSU reduce ROF below 5 sec. In fact i think FSU extending cycle right now. Used Firbolgs.
So we lose DPS with each FSU. Maybe I'm wrong


I cant even tell if they are supposed to have a stacking penalty its not listed in the item description and only 1/2 the stats stack it seems also 6% seems a bit low to also have a stacking penalty
Lugh Crow-Slave
#112 - 2016-03-31 22:50:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Lugh Crow-Slave
Marranar Amatin wrote:
No, you are right, the bug is already known.


O.o i wonder if this is why they feel SO weak i mean the numbers show they are but they do feel a lot worse than the should


another way to fix the lackluster DPS though is to Buff the MWD ability make it last longer and lower the cool down


if carriers had range then the lack of DPS would be worth it
Circumstantial Evidence
#113 - 2016-03-31 23:53:24 UTC
Primary This Rifter wrote:
My proposal to fix this is very simple:

Don't allow supers to use support fighters. They'll get their superweapons instead. Carriers will be the only platform to use support fighters.
I like this, give carriers a unique role - an option, not a requirement since they'd still be able to use damage fighters. Some may consider support fighters useless, up until the point they complain to the FC about this or that effect coming from them ;)
Miss 'Assassination' Cayman
CK-0FF
Intergalactic Space Hobos
#114 - 2016-04-01 00:05:19 UTC
Circumstantial Evidence wrote:
Primary This Rifter wrote:
My proposal to fix this is very simple:

Don't allow supers to use support fighters. They'll get their superweapons instead. Carriers will be the only platform to use support fighters.
I like this, give carriers a unique role - an option, not a requirement since they'd still be able to use damage fighters. Some may consider support fighters useless, up until the point they complain to the FC about this or that effect coming from them ;)

It would be an interesting idea. Carriers do seem to lack a role they're good at, but the role of using support fighters seems a bit... weak. I'd prefer if carriers would be the definitive anti-subcap capital, but supers have them beat by far.
Lugh Crow-Slave
#115 - 2016-04-01 00:22:56 UTC
Miss 'Assassination' Cayman wrote:
Circumstantial Evidence wrote:
Primary This Rifter wrote:
My proposal to fix this is very simple:

Don't allow supers to use support fighters. They'll get their superweapons instead. Carriers will be the only platform to use support fighters.
I like this, give carriers a unique role - an option, not a requirement since they'd still be able to use damage fighters. Some may consider support fighters useless, up until the point they complain to the FC about this or that effect coming from them ;)

It would be an interesting idea. Carriers do seem to lack a role they're good at, but the role of using support fighters seems a bit... weak. I'd prefer if carriers would be the definitive anti-subcap capital, but supers have them beat by far.


So do dreads

And no the Ewar fighters are useless they are weaker or just as strong as standard counterparts don't gain buffs from fleet boosts and take away 1/3 your dps
Lugh Crow-Slave
#116 - 2016-04-01 00:25:16 UTC
Also ccp please tell me the sensor strength on these is place holder they are weaker than light drones and can be permanently jammed by a t1 frig and o don't mean one flight I mean all 3
Soleil Fournier
Fliet Pizza Delivery
Of Essence
#117 - 2016-04-01 00:55:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Soleil Fournier
Carriers do lack a defined role. They get bonuses to support fighters but are only allowed to launch one wing of them. Doesn't really stand out.
Miss 'Assassination' Cayman
CK-0FF
Intergalactic Space Hobos
#118 - 2016-04-01 01:14:30 UTC
Soleil Fournier wrote:
Carriers do lack a defined role. They get bonuses to support fighters but are only allowed to launch one wing of them. Doesn't really stand out.

Not to mention it's a mostly useless bonus and you have to sacrifice 1/3 of your DPS to use that one wing.
Lugh Crow-Slave
#119 - 2016-04-01 01:14:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Lugh Crow-Slave
Soleil Fournier wrote:
Carriers do lack a defined role. They get bonuses to support fighters but are only allowed to launch one wing of them. Doesn't really stand out.


no they have a defined role


an anti sub cap platform that's all they can do

problem is so many other things do it better for less SP


either they need more range or more DPS
KT King
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#120 - 2016-04-01 02:02:59 UTC
I very much want to try the new carrier mechanics, but every time I undock a carrier on Sisi and launch fighters that's as far as I can get.

The default hotkey "F" does nothing for fighters now.
No special window opens up.
I cannot find anyway to give my fighters commands or otherwise interact with them.
They sit in space and get agro, but that's about it.

It's really frustrating.... Is there something I need to enable or a window I can toggle that I'm somehow not seeing in the menu?