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Show of support for getting dev time for fixing the blob 1000 VS 1 AKA The Alpha Problem.

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Jaroslav Unwanted
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#101 - 2012-01-12 18:20:30 UTC
Lord Zim wrote:
Except logis will end up forcing every fight to a stalemate.

Fun fights, indeed.


not necessarily .. It all depend what changes will happen ..
Its not like its something which cannot be done.

Question is : Are we ready for significant change and actual challenge of combat ?
Answer is so far
No we are not. We are afraid that we cant learn new strategies... Or we are afraid that if CCP tries it they will screw it to the point when fights will become non-existent since "as you mentioned"
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#102 - 2012-01-12 18:24:13 UTC
If you want to add more tactics, then CCP should do something about the on-grid probing. That's killing off the age-old tactics of sniping, and is a much smaller change than pissing about with trying to do weird things like "fixing the alpha problem".

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
#103 - 2012-01-12 18:27:53 UTC
Lord Zim wrote:
If you want to add more tactics, then CCP should do something about the on-grid probing. That's killing off the age-old tactics of sniping, and is a much smaller change than pissing about with trying to do weird things like "fixing the alpha problem".


Change minimum warp range to 250 km or 300 km from its current 150 km.

Accidentally The Whole Frigate - For-newbies blog (currently on pause)
Mirima Thurander
#104 - 2012-01-12 19:03:41 UTC
^ fixing that problem would be moving in the right way, but it in no way solves all of the problems of null combat

you end up with 2 types of alpha fleets long range and med range.


so long as the best solution in large fights stays EVERYONE SHOOT X its still broken.



i welcome the return of sniper fleets

All automated intel should be removed from the game including Instant local/jumps/kills/cynos for all systems/regions.Eve should report nothing like this to the client/3rd party software.Intel should not be force fed to players. Player skill and iniative should be the sources of intel.
Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
#105 - 2012-01-12 19:07:39 UTC
Mirima Thurander wrote:
^ fixing that problem would be moving in the right way, but it in no way solves all of the problems of null combat

you end up with 2 types of alpha fleets long range and med range.


so long as the best solution in large fights stays EVERYONE SHOOT X its still broken.



i welcome the return of sniper fleets


True, but wouldn't it be nice to have Eagle be FOTM for once? Blink

We do indeed need to have a way to discourage blobs, or at least to discourage "primary 1-2-3" fighting, but I have not seen any ideas that are not broken by design, or easily exploited (like the stacking penalty for targeting thing).

Accidentally The Whole Frigate - For-newbies blog (currently on pause)
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#106 - 2012-01-12 19:08:34 UTC
One question: Why do you think "alpha" is being used?

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
#107 - 2012-01-12 19:13:57 UTC
Lord Zim wrote:
One question: Why do you think "alpha" is being used?


Ease of use and efficiency. It would be used IRL too, except there are several issues with "Everybody shoot Jimmy Joebob!" on the real battlefield. The main ones are audio clarity (not a problem in Eve) and target ambiguity ("who the hell is Jimmy Joebob?", also not a problem in Eve). The combination of these two things being problems, along with only being able to choose to aim directly at one person, encourages focus fire and eliminates the concept of "suppressing fire" or "spray and pray".

The "focus fire" way of fighting is boring though, as many people pointed out, and there should be some mechanics encouraging more complex fleet maneuvers than just reading off the list of names on the overview.

Accidentally The Whole Frigate - For-newbies blog (currently on pause)
Cass Lie
State War Academy
Caldari State
#108 - 2012-01-12 20:12:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Cass Lie
As previously stated, Eve already suffers from an overtanking problem. It is already really hard to break through an abaddon fleet if one fourth or one third of it consists of guardians/archons (kinda similar thing with drakes and scimis on bc level). Reducing the number of ships that can lock a (hostile) target would just make it ridiculous.

The alpha doctrine (mael or baddon) was specifically designed as a way around this. It is not however the best way, it is just the simplest one and is the least demanding on your average Joe McF1. Furthermore, the fleet doesn't work if it's size goes under certain critical mass. If anything, I would lobby for somewhat reducing the ehp across the board so that stuff would die faster.
Nova Fox
Novafox Shipyards
#109 - 2012-01-12 20:14:48 UTC
How to fight and win against the blob?

Dont engage the blob.

Be in more places than the blob can be at all at once.

Definelty let the enemies blob for no reason its a real moral killer after doing this against them for a month.

Have nothing the blob can destroy while you are all alseep.

Pick off stragglers.

Dust 514's CPM 1 Iron Wolf Saber Eve mail me about Dust 514 issues.
Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
#110 - 2012-01-12 20:16:37 UTC
Cass Lie wrote:
As already stated, Eve already suffers from an overtanking problem. It is already really hard to break through an abaddon fleet if one fourth or one third of it consists of guardians/archons (kinda similar thing with drakes and scimis on bc level). Reducing the number of ships that can lock a (hostile) target would just make it ridiculous.

The alpha doctrine (mael or baddon) was specifically designed as a way around this. It is not however the best way, it is just the simplest one and is the least demanding on your average Joe McF1. Furthermore, the fleet doesn't work if it's size goes under certain critical mass. If anything, I would lobby for somewhat reducing the ehp across the board so that stuff would die faster.


The "reduced EHP, increased damage" solution seems the most reasonable to me, as well. If the target pops after 100 people out of a fleet of 500 fire at it, it will force FCs to spread fire or risk having their fleet killed faster by the other fleet's FC if he/she decides to spread fire.

Accidentally The Whole Frigate - For-newbies blog (currently on pause)
Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
#111 - 2012-01-12 20:18:17 UTC
Nova Fox wrote:
How to fight and win against the blob?

Dont engage the blob.

Be in more places than the blob can be at all at once.

Definelty let the enemies blob for no reason its a real moral killer after doing this against them for a month.

Have nothing the blob can destroy while you are all alseep.

Pick off stragglers.


And burn Providence while you're at it (as ex-Ushra'Khan, I can confirm that blob-avoiding and guerilla warfare like this works nicely).

This works to some extent, but when you're forced to fight the blob to, for example, defend your sovereignty, you... well... have to fight the blob Ugh

Accidentally The Whole Frigate - For-newbies blog (currently on pause)
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#112 - 2012-01-12 20:24:47 UTC
What constitutes a blob? Where do blobs most commonly appear?

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
Jaroslav Unwanted
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#113 - 2012-01-12 20:29:12 UTC
Lord Zim wrote:
What constitutes a blob? Where do blobs most commonly appear?


correct question ..

I would guess .. mostly sovereignty warfare.
Altho i saw SCs and 500 man fleet droped on solo harbinger Big smile
Petrus Blackshell
Rifterlings
#114 - 2012-01-12 20:31:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Petrus Blackshell
Lord Zim wrote:
What constitutes a blob? Where do blobs most commonly appear?


Generally a blob is defined as a large, poorly organized (slapped together) fleet. Something with 12 Drakes (4 of which are HAM, the rest HML), 10 Hurricanes (one 720mm sniper, 7 nano-fit, and 2 armor fit), maybe a Myrm or two, a Pilgrim, a Falcon, a couple Vagas, and a few interdictors and Rifters for good measure. These are commonly found roaming or camping.

"Blob" sometimes also refers to big fleets of bored people with no personal combat skills mindlessly following F1 instructions from the FC, commonly found in sov warfare.

I think Nova is speaking to a combination of the two.

Accidentally The Whole Frigate - For-newbies blog (currently on pause)
seany1212
M Y S T
#115 - 2012-01-12 20:31:31 UTC
Simplest solution:

Don't join in. You then don't have the problem of being potentially alpha'd and your contributing to making blobs smaller Roll
Hikaru Kuroda
Extheria
#116 - 2012-01-12 20:37:12 UTC
Subsystem/modular damage for battleships/capital ships (engines, drone control, etc.) and locking time penalties.

First counters the capital ships thousand times better than sub capital ships thing without breaking game mechanics and adds a new tactical layer.

Second breaks the alpha strike tactic for large fleets and force them to divide the work into wing commanders and squad commanders.
Lord Zim
Gallente Federation
#117 - 2012-01-12 20:46:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Lord Zim
Petrus Blackshell wrote:
Lord Zim wrote:
What constitutes a blob? Where do blobs most commonly appear?


Generally a blob is defined as a large, poorly organized (slapped together) fleet. Something with 12 Drakes (4 of which are HAM, the rest HML), 10 Hurricanes (one 720mm sniper, 7 nano-fit, and 2 armor fit), maybe a Myrm or two, a Pilgrim, a Falcon, a couple Vagas, and a few interdictors and Rifters for good measure. These are commonly found roaming or camping.

"Blob" sometimes also refers to big fleets of bored people with no personal combat skills mindlessly following F1 instructions from the FC, commonly found in sov warfare.

I think Nova is speaking to a combination of the two.


Actually, no. The correct definition, as has been seen tons of times, is "more than I have", irrespective of skill (or lack thereof), or fleet composition (or lack thereof). Where you will see these blobs most often, however, is as Jaroslav says, in sovereignty warfare, for one simple reason: it basically demands it.

You want to split up the blobs and incentivize smaller fleets, push CCP to fix the SOV system so it's more granular and allows attacks on multiple systems to be realistically carried through and actually effective.

Fiddling about with ideas of "nerfing alpha" merely makes logistics even more powerful than they already are, or other hilarious side-effects which we don't know of right now, and is as far as I'm concerned completely the wrong path to head down.

Cyno's lit, bridge is up, but one pilot won't be jumping home.

RIP Vile Rat
Ioci
Bad Girl Posse
#118 - 2012-01-12 20:48:36 UTC
Lord Zim wrote:
One question: Why do you think "alpha" is being used?


It has already been said. To get on the killmail.

You don't need 200 ships to kill a Battleship. You need 10 at most. Aslo, if you fight to win, when the battle is done you have a number of squads and wings you can send out to clean up with.

I've been in fights that were 1000+ on either side and none of them culminated in to 1000+ vs 1000+ battles. It was usually 2 or 3 battles with split fleets and a back up fleet. I don't know who was in the top tiers of those war planning groups but I didn't envy them.

R.I.P. Vile Rat
Jaroslav Unwanted
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#119 - 2012-01-12 20:50:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Jaroslav Unwanted
Lord Zim wrote:
Petrus Blackshell wrote:
Lord Zim wrote:
What constitutes a blob? Where do blobs most commonly appear?


Generally a blob is defined as a large, poorly organized (slapped together) fleet. Something with 12 Drakes (4 of which are HAM, the rest HML), 10 Hurricanes (one 720mm sniper, 7 nano-fit, and 2 armor fit), maybe a Myrm or two, a Pilgrim, a Falcon, a couple Vagas, and a few interdictors and Rifters for good measure. These are commonly found roaming or camping.

"Blob" sometimes also refers to big fleets of bored people with no personal combat skills mindlessly following F1 instructions from the FC, commonly found in sov warfare.

I think Nova is speaking to a combination of the two.


Actually, no. The correct definition, as has been seen tons of times, is "more than I have", irrespective of skill (or lack thereof), or fleet composition (or lack thereof). Where you will see these blobs most often, however, is as Jaroslav says, in sovereignty warfare, for one simple reason: it basically demands it.

You want to split up the blobs and incentivize smaller fleets, push CCP to fix the SOV system so it's more granular and allows attacks on multiple systems to be realistically carried through and actually effective.

Fiddling about with ideas of "nerfing alpha" merely makes logistics even more powerful than they already are, or other hilarious side-effects which we don't know of right now, and is as far as I'm concerned completely the wrong path to head down.


Altho i would change allow to demand .. just to be on spot..
Something what Taiwanistan said on the other thread... simultaneous attack on three spots .. to weaken an sovereignty then the "HQ" or something like that..

Altho it would be problematic if the defenders got about the same numbers as the attacking force... But on the other hand they are on their place/home..
Avid Bumhumper
Beekeepers Anonymous
#120 - 2012-01-12 20:50:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Avid Bumhumper
Give everyone a Doomsday, they who select the most targets and pull the trigger first wins.... Problem solved. Cool


Edit: And it would certainly cut down on 5 hour fleet fights! Big smile

My Tinfoil hat has been sugically implanted, so no,it is not for sale.....