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March release - New Camera Feedback

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Author
CCP Turtlepower
C C P
C C P Alliance
#61 - 2016-03-18 10:15:15 UTC
Idame Isqua wrote:
if I have PVP camera mode i.e. autotracking
if I look at something it should default to autotracking my own ship
That is an interesting idea, I will pass it on. At the very least we should probably make it easier to track yourself while looking at another ship.
Was it easier to perform this action in the old camera? Exactly how is that done?

Idame Isqua wrote:
if I actually manage to get the camera tracking my own ship from someone elses
I can start manually piloting /spiraling away, until the "you did something I'm not gonna track that object you went to great effort to start tracking" feature kicks in.
What exact feature? Sorry I don't quite follow, please feel free to elaborate.

Idame Isqua wrote:
Look at how the show info box works
If I want to orbit something I can click orbit on that
But I cant use my keyboard shortcut... without clicking on something...
what? why?
This sounds like a defect, we will look into it. Thanks!

o7
CCP Turtlepower
Jeven HouseBenyo
Vanity Thy Name Is
#62 - 2016-03-18 16:11:00 UTC
This is while in Orbit mode.

When targeting wrecks, noticing an oddity. No matter whether the wreck is in the foreground of background of where my ship is, all names, lines vertical and horizontal from the targeting, etc. has said wreck in the foreground. Between 'me' and where my ship is in space. I'm finding this very jarring, immersion breaking, and when trying to speed through looting rather annoying since distances appear 'wrong' when heading from one to another.

Another way to explain it. While all of 'space' around me gives a good illusion of 'infinite in all directions', targeted wrecks are on an obvious 2D only layer in environmental graphics while using the Orbit Mode camera setting. Near and far do not show up with targeted objects, that is all on one layout, closer to 'me' rather than in reference to my ship's location.

Still not thrilled we'll have our option of the old camera removed, but since that option was never on the table, this is the best I can offer for a constructive suggestion to make this new camera more functional.

>Jeven

Minny boat flyer, unofficial squeaky wheel.

'Game Ethics and Morality Monitor' I remember promises.

Snark at 11-24/7/365.25. Overshare? Yup.

Yes it's my fault. And if you don't staap it I'll do it again. ;-P

No you can't has my stuffs OR my SPs.

Gelt Asanari
Rogue One LLC
#63 - 2016-03-19 03:21:59 UTC
I use tactical overlay very often and ever since the March release I have to cycle it in order to get the line in space to a selected target in my overview. This vector to target is a basic piloting tool for me in getting my feel for objects in the area of engagement. Currently, it is very annoying and cumbersome in engagements where there are many targets as I have turn on and off tactical overlay each time I want a bearing to a selected target.

This worked just fine prior to the March 8th release and is still not fixed. Please make this function as it has before.
Pud Li
Doomheim
#64 - 2016-03-19 19:41:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Pud Li
With 3 clients its pretty easy for logging to exceed the 15MB size even over relatively quick to reproduce problems (less than 8 minutes) .

Unfortunately compressed log files do not seem to be allowed. Suggest you allow compressed log files or create a log editing tool for users that preserves key client startup info while allowing players to remove all but the last x minutes of logged data (clip out the middle stuff like flying to the situation to be reproduced).

Or of course you can simply allow uploading larger log files. Just throttle the upload speed at the bug report interface since network congestion would seem to be the only real reason to limit log size.

( Storage space shouldn't really be an issue since EVE is edging into petabytes for online working storage. And pretty sure the user bug problem is at the end of most log files -- meaning its easy to find. But the solution should be simple if that is the issue because players keep playing etc. Obviously CCP software for replay of log files could tap into periodic timestamps to jump directly to areas of interest based on user reports that included comments like "issue became noticeable at approximately 19:37. Ideally CCP log replay software would then let debuggers scroll forward and backward from that timestamp. )
Chatarina DeBeers
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#65 - 2016-03-21 18:44:28 UTC
I gave the new camera a go today.

I'm super-happy it now works with tracking, so I tried with d-scan, only to discover it doesn't center my ship on celestials. To do that, I had to click again, and then it sluggishly centered on the object. This doesn't doesn't work when needing to quickly pinpoint enemies.

However, in conjunction with the new map, it did work, after I set it to Align With Camera. It is still sub-optimal as you'll have to perform extra steps in order to use it that way, especially since Align With Camera does not agree with probing, and in wormholes you have to be ready to do both on short notice.

Thus I'll still be switching back to the old camera for now. For all the bells and whistles of the new camera, the old camera "just works".
Idame Isqua
Caldari Colonial Defense Ministry
Templis CALSF
#66 - 2016-03-22 15:01:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Idame Isqua
CCP Turtlepower wrote:
That is an interesting idea, I will pass it on. At the very least we should probably make it easier to track yourself while looking at another ship.
Was it easier to perform this action in the old camera? Exactly how is that done?


// No nothings changed you still have to:
1) hold your short cut key, and click with the mouse on what you want to look at
2) move the camera around until you find those funny brackets around your own ship, then click on them//

CCP Turtlepower wrote:
What exact feature? Sorry I don't quite follow, please feel free to elaborate.


//Manual piloting requires double clicking in space
While spamming double clicks in space
Its easy to accidentally click and drag <- this is the problem, disabling click and drag to stop tracking would be a solution
which causes the camera to stop tracking i.e. become a liability/useless
To start tracking again you have to click on the object you want to track
I feel like this has been changed because of the new click and drag to select stuff in space?
However I do know that click and drag to select stuff in space doesn't make it easier to track my own ship//

CCP Turtlepower wrote:
This sounds like a defect, we will look into it. Thanks!
o7
CCP Turtlepower


Sorry I haven't trained forum poasting and when ever I tried to correctly quote and reply it said I had reached the 5 quote limit.

That would be great!


Further examples of me pushing the UI and getting frustrated
I personally have (on a us keyboard)
q = orbit w = keep at range e = approach
a = stop s = full speed d = prop (R and onwards highslots D and onwards mid slots v and onwards lowslots)
z = align x = warp to c = activate/dock etc.
so basically the wsad commonly found in fps/rts etc.

but the problem I have is qwe zxc all require a mouse click to work
they dont work as shortcuts they become long cuts
as clicking on the show info buttons is a single action
while using the shortcuts is two actions

side note:
also I'm a big fan of using the arrow keys on the keyboard to select things in my overview (up and down unbinded with left and right bound to next and previous tab)

for example: fleet broadcasts get moved to the top of the overview, so all I do is set my overview as focus hit down hit align
and this is awesome/ lazy / efficient / precise
but I can't take this further, if I press down with the overview selected too early, its back to two action solutions
the major problem being theirs no way to skip back to the top (it would be nice if hold down the up/down key for x amount of time it skips to the top or bottom, instead of having to go through every thing on my overview when I hold down up or down)

but back to the main thing
the keyboard shortcuts for the show info window, should actually work exactly like clicking on the show info window works
short of that
the object i have selected is always selected unless I choose otherwise
so that if I'm fighting I can click on something lock it, then hit the keep at range/orbit/approach keys without having to use the mouse
(i.e. I don't have to select the object I'm focusing every time I'm using a keyboard shortcut)

as I said the show info box already does this
kind of
if I click on the show info buttons they all work as expected
i.e. i can click approach (one action) then if i want to orbit I can click orbit (one action)
compared with using the keyboard shortcuts and having to make two actions (one with each hand/two actions)

so the keyboard shortcuts don't do anything by themselves, so they aren't really shortcuts

In short I want to be able to play without using a mouse/having to use a mouse lol

And just to repeat what has been repeated a lot before
the new probe windows should work how the overview works
i.e. if i click on something in the probe window my camera snaps to it/tracks its/etc.
so I can D scan it / see it inspace
the new mini floating solar system map thing is great
and for new guys / people in new space it must be a boon, it is great for quickly getting your bearings in new space
but for combat I still prefer to rely on my own spatial awareness of the solar system I'm in, and the surrounding systems
and I've found even with the new fancy solar system map open I hardly actually use it to position myself in space
and if I'm working with someone in another system I need to be using my brain anyway as I can't see the system next doors map
for example: in FW I can see the plexs in my probe window but the only way I can actually dscan them/see them in space/make use of this information, is by selecting them on the overview, for FW plexs if it isnt on your overview nones inside it, but its just extra pain having to cross reference, (or hovering over the green brackets in space lolwut), making the new probe window work like the overview in relation to camera (as it used to work is a must)
Areen Sassel
Dirac Angestun Gesept
#67 - 2016-03-23 00:26:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Areen Sassel
Areen Sassel wrote:
After today's patch I find the first-person camera doesn't respect the Camera Offset setting. It did until very recently.


I submitted a bug report for this which was closed without comment.

By the way, it's quite frustrating when bug reports are closed without comment. Or, indeed, any acknowledgement at all. Do I need to write a wall of incoherent text to get a response, or what?
Miss 'Assassination' Cayman
CK-0FF
Intergalactic Space Hobos
#68 - 2016-03-23 01:51:51 UTC
Areen Sassel wrote:
Areen Sassel wrote:
After today's patch I find the first-person camera doesn't respect the Camera Offset setting. It did until very recently.


I submitted a bug report for this which was closed without comment.

By the way, it's quite frustrating when bug reports are closed without comment. Or, indeed, any acknowledgement at all. Do I need to write a wall of incoherent text to get a response, or what?

Would you rather the devs spend time doing their jobs or commenting on bug reports? I'd imagine they get so many bug reports that it takes a huge chunk of time to even read them, let alone respond to each one.
Areen Sassel
Dirac Angestun Gesept
#69 - 2016-03-23 02:02:03 UTC
Miss 'Assassination' Cayman wrote:
Areen Sassel wrote:

By the way, it's quite frustrating when bug reports are closed without comment. Or, indeed, any acknowledgement at all. Do I need to write a wall of incoherent text to get a response, or what?

Would you rather the devs spend time doing their jobs or commenting on bug reports?


They seem in general to have enough time in this thread to reply - in some detail to the walls of incoherent text. Compared to that, selecting from a few tickyboxes when closing a bug ("Acknowledged", "Working as designed", etc) would be quite modest. Indeed, it's such common practice in bug reporting systems I might go so far as to describe it as _part_ of the job of a developer.

It'll probably take _more_ development time to close it gnomically and then to read the complaint about it being closed gnomically . I have no idea if it was actually acknowleged as something to fix, mistriaged, or acknowledged as a regrettable consequence of some change under the hood (but "wontfix"), so naturally I come back and try to find out.
Idame Isqua
Caldari Colonial Defense Ministry
Templis CALSF
#70 - 2016-03-24 06:01:27 UTC
CCP Turtlepower wrote:
Idame Isqua wrote:
if I have PVP camera mode i.e. autotracking
if I look at something it should default to autotracking my own ship
That is an interesting idea, I will pass it on. At the very least we should probably make it easier to track yourself while looking at another ship.
Was it easier to perform this action in the old camera? Exactly how is that done?

Idame Isqua wrote:
if I actually manage to get the camera tracking my own ship from someone elses
I can start manually piloting /spiraling away, until the "you did something I'm not gonna track that object you went to great effort to start tracking" feature kicks in.
What exact feature? Sorry I don't quite follow, please feel free to elaborate.

Idame Isqua wrote:
Look at how the show info box works
If I want to orbit something I can click orbit on that
But I cant use my keyboard shortcut... without clicking on something...
what? why?
This sounds like a defect, we will look into it. Thanks!

o7
CCP Turtlepower


Whoops forgot to quote your reply in my reply above
Miss 'Assassination' Cayman
CK-0FF
Intergalactic Space Hobos
#71 - 2016-03-24 06:11:26 UTC
There's an Edit button that would make things a lot more readable than quoting it again with no comments.
Miss 'Assassination' Cayman
CK-0FF
Intergalactic Space Hobos
#72 - 2016-03-26 05:37:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Miss 'Assassination' Cayman
After a couple weeks of use the new camera is really growing on me. With the inertia slider a bit to the right and all the options turned off, it's a lot like the old camera but with more responsive zooming. There are only two things that have been annoying me:
1. The difference between horizontal and vertical sensitivity. Looking more than a few degrees up or down feels slow and tiring because it requires double the mouse movement for the same change in angle.
2. Pressing the dscan hotkey after clicking an item on the overview snaps the camera to that item. It's really bothersome because I'm constantly clicking things on the overview to lock them or switch targets, and refreshing dscan with the hotkey. Having the camera start tracking whatever I last clicked before refreshing dscan is annoying when using 360° scan and a huge hindrance when trying to fight while tracking a target or keeping a cone dscan in a certain direction. I propose either separating the refresh hotkey from the one to track a target and scan in its direction, or making it only do that when clicking while holding the key, rather than tapping the key after clicking on something.

There's also some graphical bug where the target lock circle and crosshairs disappear when zooming out with a Large Collidable Structure like some mission objectives locked. I reported that, and it may be related to rendering instead of camera.
Xavier Kaine
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#73 - 2016-03-28 01:30:44 UTC
I'm still trying to reserve my opinion of the new camera until the new-ness leaves me and I can really look at the thing without bias. But before then, I have to join in with "please bring back custom tracking position".

I typically have windows taking up the left half of my screen; when tracking in orbit cam my ships slides under everything. I liked being able to offset the camera center to the right and having the custom tracking position up and to the left. The old tracking camera seemed to sit a little high so it felt like I was looking down at an object, which feels natural for a game.

The new tracking camera sits perfectly horizontal. I suppose this helps add a sense of scale and some objects seem rather large and impressive, but the aesthetics of these objects and the ships themselves feels lost. If I'm not admiring my ship in warp then I'm enjoying the view as I drop out of warp next to a gate or something. Now that these views are no longer appealing I find myself flying around with the tactical camera all day which is not necessarily a fun thing to do.
Regan Rotineque
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#74 - 2016-03-29 04:32:07 UTC
CCP Turtlepower wrote:
[quote=Regan Rotineque]I find this new orbit view to be distracting and too 'bouncy' if that is a way to describe it.... Is it not possible to program this new technology to have the same view as the old camera?

Please try going to the Esc menu, Display&Graphics tab, ticking off Dynamic FOV and Dynamic Center Offset, and setting the inertia slider all the way to the right (stiff). This should make the new camera feel almost identical to the old one.


Hello

Thank you Turtlepower

I have done as you suggested on SiSi, it is much more like the existing camera this way, though i did not turn the slider 100% to stiff i found about 3/4 did not roll terribly bad. I would suggest that this be the 'default' if you are going to release this.

Instead of people getting a whole new experience which is very disruptive, why not approach this from
1... Here is what you have this is the default setting
2... Here are the new features - this bouncy stuff, first person etc. - to turn these on do 'x'

As for additional feedback.....can you turn the three buttons for this into one button? Sort of like the Probe Button that you can click and it gives the three options? It would save on real estate and perhaps allow you to put the button in the same column as the other four.

I found that the new column of dedicated camera buttons (which to be honest - I suspect most people are not going to use) pushed everything out of wack on my HUD and set up. I had to resize drone screen, chat etc... Until I figured out how to turn it off. That being said if we are moving forward with this I would like to see less on the UI not more. And individual buttons that are rarely used can I think benefit from that type of interface (like the one for probes).

Cheers

~R~
CCP Turtlepower
C C P
C C P Alliance
#75 - 2016-03-30 17:20:31 UTC  |  Edited by: CCP Turtlepower
Hello everyone, sorry about the late reply.

Gelt Asanari wrote:
I use tactical overlay very often and ever since the March release I have to cycle it in order to get the line in space to a selected target in my overview.
This is a known issue, will be fixed soon.
Chatarina DeBeers wrote:
I'm super-happy it now works with tracking, so I tried with d-scan, only to discover it doesn't center my ship on celestials. To do that, I had to click again, and then it sluggishly centered on the object. This doesn't doesn't work when needing to quickly pinpoint enemies.
However, in conjunction with the new map, it did work, after I set it to Align With Camera.
If you have auto-tracking on then you can click on anything to direct your d-scan in that direction. The new map is not required to do this. Well, it is working for me at least... feel free to elaborate if I'm misunderstanding the issue.
Idame Isqua wrote:
CCP Turtlepower wrote:
Was it easier to perform this action in the old camera? Exactly how is that done?


// No nothings changed you still have to:
1) hold your short cut key, and click with the mouse on what you want to look at
2) move the camera around until you find those funny brackets around your own ship, then click on them//
I understand, thanks for the explanation. I've passed this onto the team and we are discussing solutions.
EDIT: This is already possible with just a few clicks! Alt click something to 'Look at' it, then hold 'C' and click on empty space to track your own ship while still looking at something else Big smile
Areen Sassel wrote:
By the way, it's quite frustrating when bug reports are closed without comment. Or, indeed, any acknowledgement at all. Do I need to write a wall of incoherent text to get a response, or what?
While we hugely appreciate every bug report filed, we receive too many bug reports to be able to reply to each one, so we only reply if we need additional info on the issue. That was not the case in your report. Rest assured that if a bug report is closed then it has been processed.
Regan Rotineque wrote:
As for additional feedback.....can you turn the three buttons for this into one button?
Interesting idea! I've passed it onto the team.

Fly safe
CCP Turtlepower // Team Psycho Sisters
Terranid Meester
Tactical Assault and Recon Unit
#76 - 2016-03-30 19:01:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Terranid Meester
Never mind looks like it will implemented.
Bianca Niam
Doomheim
#77 - 2016-03-31 10:43:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Bianca Niam
Please please please! Save FOV .. I have to constantly zoom out (a.k.a. increase FOV) every single time I go through a gate.
Areen Sassel
Dirac Angestun Gesept
#78 - 2016-03-31 22:38:12 UTC
CCP Turtlepower wrote:
While we hugely appreciate every bug report filed, we receive too many bug reports to be able to reply to each one, so we only reply if we need additional info on the issue. That was not the case in your report. Rest assured that if a bug report is closed then it has been processed.


Thanks. However, I'm still a little confused as to why you seem to have time to reply to everyone else posting issues in this thread.
Miss 'Assassination' Cayman
CK-0FF
Intergalactic Space Hobos
#79 - 2016-03-31 22:41:19 UTC
Areen Sassel wrote:
CCP Turtlepower wrote:
While we hugely appreciate every bug report filed, we receive too many bug reports to be able to reply to each one, so we only reply if we need additional info on the issue. That was not the case in your report. Rest assured that if a bug report is closed then it has been processed.


Thanks. However, I'm still a little confused as to why you seem to have time to reply to everyone else posting issues in this thread.

It's one reply every week or two, which is a lot less than commenting on a bunch of bug reports.
Areen Sassel
Dirac Angestun Gesept
#80 - 2016-04-01 17:04:21 UTC
Miss 'Assassination' Cayman wrote:
It's one reply every week or two, which is a lot less than commenting on a bunch of bug reports.


I think you may have missed what I'm saying. As far as I can tell, _every single_ issue - bug, feature request, whatever - raised in this thread has received a CCP response, even the giant walls of text... except one.