Upcoming Feature and Change Feedback Center

Docking rights cannot be set on per-character basis ?



That would be both screwing a trader that got docking perimissions revoked as well as an owner screwing himself over (and to what extent, that would depend on the scale).



Again, from trader's pov - wider margin in npc is not much of a disadvantage (unless taxes are taken to extremes, such as the broker fee counted in double digit values), as long as there're people filling orders up. In context of other features / advantages, smaller citadels will be much more interesting choice.



Well, there are stations in Thera and some orders set up. But we're again talking about highsec in particular and some safe new Jita-like thing (or at worst Rens-like), not nearly permaganked suicidal oversized wormhole with a few people inside.



Who said anything about "benefiting only" ? Citadels of what sizes ? Of course they will be, from S to L. But XLs are stomping on a very thin ice of their usability, with theit major feature being ability to dock supercapitals (so irrelevant in HS).

And rising taxes in npc stations won't magically make them (XLs) more useful. It's not even about hurting existing features - it's about being a completely misfired idea - as trades will just shrug it off, if not flat out laugh in the face - while happily remaining in Jita or w/e other hub out there.

On top of that - before contracts and crest are fully implemented, moving out of npc stations remains fantasy.

Nah not Techos, never could he admit he was at all wrong or misled anyone, he believes in his perfect world and Bob forbid anyone challenge it. Personal attacks is the answer, just read above. You see, Techos hasn't "seen" the effects others are concerned about, (maybe because they have not been implemented), so they don't exist.

As for changes to the coming release - Not going to happen, CCP is having a hard enough time getting what they have promised working, let alone balancing any of it. Had Citadels been designed with more than 2 or 3 groups within the player base in mind, they could have been great. Sadly though it would seem Devs at CCP are very shortsighted and have limited imagination, so this is what we get.


Of course much of this conjecture and name calling could be easily resolved - Except the people (Devs) who could, don't care enough to respond in feedback threads they start - Hint; Feedback is a two way thing.

"Don't worry we are reading your feedback", is no help when people have concerns and don't get any response.

Misled anyone, I didn't say I got no benefit from my corp or alliance, just that they were no benefit to my invention endeavors. It is not my fault you can't comprehend the written word.

My point is a small group of players can get by just fine if they know what they are doing. A small can probably do better than me using alts. So this, "Oh woah is me, I'm small and can't compete." Is largely in their own minds. Sure maybe they can't put 1,000 guys on the field in a sov fight....but they don't seem to be inclined to that anyways so it is an irrelevant comparison.

Will it be a problem for 4 guys in a corp to put up a large trade hub? Yeah, probably. If you want that as a goal you'll likely need to get bigger. Just as if you want to take and hold sov you need to be bigger. If you sit there and demand to stay small...fine, but you are putting constraints on the type of game you can play and since you are putting on the constraints you have nobody to blame put yourselves.

Seriously, grow the heck up.

The items produced by players are homogeneous products. My Hawk is exactly the same of those produced by other players. The game has no room for heterogeneous product competition because of difficulties in game balancing. The manufacturing process is so simplified that requires little or no thought. The competitive advantage of a group or player essentially boils down to cost of raw materials and scale of production. The gain of advantage for big players becomes the loss of the small.

To ease the conflict, the game can create more variation of forms of competition rather than merely size and power. Gameplay that requires knowledge and thought allows big and small players to play on a level playing field. For example, the game of project discovery is a mini game that requires some thinking process. The complexity of gameplay in mining, manufacturing, invention could be increased in depth that similar to the variation of depth in exploration sites and burner missions. Players can choose the depth of gameplay he wants to play.

The gain of one side need not be the loss of the other. Eve can be a great game for all kinds of players.

"Hey bro, if you wanna stay and play a game you obviously don't like made by developers you obviously think are bad at game design, that's fine, it's your money to waste, you do you. Don't expect crying about group based mechanics to get you very far though. MMOs are not designed to be played solo."

Here we go, a couple of quotes from Wikipedia.

A massively multiplayer online game (MMOG or MMO) is an online game which is capable of supporting large numbers of players simultaneously in the same instance (or world).[1] MMOs usually have at least one persistent world, however some games differ. These games can be found for most network-capable platforms, including the personal computer, video game console, or smartphones and other mobile devices.

MMOs can enable players to cooperate and compete with each other on a large scale, and sometimes to interact meaningfully with people around the world. They include a variety of gameplay types, representing many video game genres.


However single player in MMOs is quite viable, especially in what is called 'player vs environment' gameplay. This may result in the player being unable to experience all content, as many of the most significant and potentially rewarding game experiences are events which require large and coordinated teams to complete.

I tried to find anywhere where it said you couldn't play solo, this is the best I could come up with.

In my opinion the pve comment is pointed at raids etc in certain games. As we all know in this game even as a solo player we can join roams etc anytime, chat rooms the same. So what exactly does a solo player miss out on?

Nice spinning bro. I didn't say that solo wasn't possible, but MMOs are not designed for single players, least of which EVE. If you are going to tear up every time they make a group based mechanic you are going to spend a lot of time crying. Good job on going to wikipedia though, you've at least proven that you will believe basically anything if it's written down.

Name me a single mmo that was designed to specifically exclude solo play.

Then show me anywhere that it says that any mmo was designed for group play only.

You can run this in as many circles and make it as personal as you like, the fact is that "multiplayer" simply means more than one player on a server, nothing more.

It's probably worth killing the thread now.

As enthralling as watching Lucas and Sgt Ocker is, their gradual slide into the supermassive blackhole that is their density combined is too much.

Let's all agree that this is the apocalypse and the deus ex machina, the end of the game and its saviour, that this is going to change things and no-one can know what is going to happen with any degree of accuracy.

In other news, there might not actually be a CFC left in a month, so maybe all our fears are unwarranted!

Mittens + pets + renters = CFC

Don't care what he chose to re-brand it to suit his website's money making ventures.

The Imperium drove away long standing key members of the coalition. The CFC is failing - As all dictatorships do eventually.
Your right, it will be a long fight but it is happening. The rats are gathering on the bulk heads just waiting for the right moment to abandon ship.
My predictions - RZR, if there is any of the old guard leadership still active, will be next to jump ship. While Fcon, 5,500 npc kills in one system while there is a war raging around them, will just continue on and rent from the next group to take over Branch (long overdue).
The CFC had an identity - They were badass's that rofl stomped anyone they chose
The Imperium, is one guy making money off the backs of membership, who for the most part doesn't even play the game anymore. (read the coalition jabber pings from Mittens if you can access them, they just stink of desperation)

And yes please Lucas, go put up a Market Citadel on your own. I dare you.
Immediately you would see, as Lucas Kell & co, your citadel would last one vulnerability cycle. Simply the alliance name associated with you would stop thousands of players bothering to use it. And as many as could muster the isk to wardec it.
Alternately you could form a small highsec corp with your alts - And risk being wardecc'd by anyone who cares to. Or just ignored because well, who can trust a small corp that has amassed enough isk to build an Xlarge Citadel - They must be thieves and scammers, or worse associated with a large dominating group.

Human nature is a funny thing - We live in a virtual world where, stealing, scamming and every other low life thing you can imagine not only goes on but is promoted by the games owners. Then they turn around and expect players to trust these same people by forcing others to use their structures to house their goods.

Don't know who made this about the CFC/Emporium but it is a good example of one of the major failings with Player Owned Destructible Market Hubs.
Lucas, you really believe the CFC could build and live out of a highsec Market Hub Citadel - I just wet my pants from laughing so hard....


NB; I have never said anything I post is fact, in fact I have on several occasions stated it is conjecture and personal thoughts, mainly because CCP have not bothered to respond to anything in any way to ally the conjecture and those thoughts.
CCP Ytterbium started a feedback thread back in October 2015, that was pretty much the last update we have had on Citadels, until this thread which again poses more questions than it does answers.

forum said: "you can only quote 5 times".......



Your orders on character with revoked rights don't automagically move to your alts. Sure, you can cancel them, force recovery, buy on your alt and so on. Whether the mechanics are planned to be the same as with outposts - so workaround such as jump cloning still working after blocking access, that I don't know.

Either way, they are between minor (jump clone or presence - if they are applicable) and major pita.

You again ignore the scale. If "new Jita" ever happens, some individuals revoked here on there will matter as much as last year's snow. You believe into perfect neutral citadel owner with welcoming hands to everyone, I see citadel as a tool. Whether it's rising taxes for some people/groups/everyone, revoking rights, destroying competing citadels or anything else. Especially in this game.

Don't get me wrong - I'd love to see a successful L or XL neutral citadel in HS with near 0 taxes, never destroyed that would dethrone Jita. The bait in broker fee income is gigantic, but the real chances ....



Billions in taxes is a matter of sometimes one day for me. Per average I'd say around 1b / 2-3 days. Not that it matters much if at all.



Actually yes, we're talking about basically HS and being viable as a market hub. As that's what this reverse-carrot taxation change is de-facto about. Wormholes and sov null it's irrelevant for obvious reasons (nothing to compete with citadels there), npc null the "npc competition" is near nonexistent. Citadels do make sense there and don't need any extra push there.

And no, that's not me claiming that silly "logic" leap. I'm claiming that this particular change is completely misfired and won't have much effect on "make citadels interesting" (especially not in HS as a hub). "Getting new shiny outposts" doesn't imply in any way or form that only group will see benefits.


Overall as I can see things:

- XL as a viable market hub in HS ? I doubt it - though I'd love to see one(s) happening. Too much inertia to overcome, too much distrust, the carrots are too tiny, "undock and defend 'your' citadel" is a pipe dream in HS even if for flagging/concord rules alone, some essential functionality still missing for now (crest, contracts). We will see in a few months or years wheter I was right or not.

S - XL for other purposes ? Of course. XL especially in wh/null (for which it's practically designed with significantly larger defenses, doomsday operation and super capital support) ? Sure, it should / will be awesome. Either way all existing structures will go away sooner or later to be replaced by citadel mechanics.

But

Rising taxes by 6x+ times IMHO will have very little to no effect on traders - with costs shifted (as always it is with taxes) to final customers (incoming complaints). The new best case scenario tax per item flip is 8.25% (decreased further a bit by whatever the new modules will provide). That's borderline stupid.

What is more ironic, the new taxation rule puts much smaller emphasis on standings, what will naturally even out the playfield with thin margins (incoming complaints from people that spent time/isk on grinding standings).

And at the end - let me give you example of what would be a good carrot to bait people into citadels without hitting npc stations with a stick:

XL citadel role bonus: 33% boost to maximum amount of market orders


Suggesting where ?





Other than that, we can agree to disagree and see how the stuff unfolds in coming months.

I am afraid, that after reading through all this no one has stated the obvious.

1. Citadels are set up in each major region, linked so they do not require passing through the chokepoints of uedama and Niarja.
2. The ministry of love, interdict these route in their totality. To go from jita/dodixie/amarr, is extinction. All ships die, regardless, the route is closed.
3. All trade moves to citadels. Or there is no trade.
Jita/amarr/rens/dodixie become irrelevant. Of course new trade hubs in stations in the new citadel systems, COULD form naturally, but if people are going to move, they will pick the cheapest/most convinient to operate from, and ganking will be strictly controlled between the new hub routes. Who wouldn't use them under the circumstances?
4. Game over. We lost.

And before someone asks me to say where, I think they will already have worked it out without me laying down a map and instructions. Anyone with an hour spare can design it.