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Building things in null sec stations should count as industry
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Tian Toralen
State War Academy
Caldari State
#1 - 2016-03-28 12:48:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Tian Toralen
Building things in null sec stations should count as "industry" and raise the industry indices of the system.
Danika Princip
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#2 - 2016-03-28 13:11:40 UTC
Do you not see how abusable this would be?
Tian Toralen
State War Academy
Caldari State
#3 - 2016-03-28 13:18:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Tian Toralen
What do you mean abusable?
Is it industry or not? Players take the time to bring the materials (or reprocess), and build the things they need to build? Why should I be forced to mine if I want a better defence index? PI is also "industry", this should also raise the indices... Supercapital bulding should also raise the indices by a lot.

Even if I don't like to mine, or PI, or rat, and only sometimes I like to build some T1 ships from reprocessing rat loot. Building T2, T3, or invention should raise indices by a lot more.

Maybe you are worried that players would all build T1 just to raise the indices? So what? Isn't that what CCP means by "living and using" the systems they are in? Does everyting need to be hard and boring, force players to to boring stuff like mining just so they can better defend their null-sec home? Ratting is even more boring, it's just better isk/hour, that's the only reason military indices are high.
Put a cap - let's say once the index is at 3 it cannot be raised more by T1 production. Same thing with PI, you need more complex PI to raise it above 3.
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#4 - 2016-03-28 14:24:07 UTC
Tian Toralen wrote:
What do you mean abusable?
...
Maybe you are worried that players would all build T1 just to raise the indices? So what? Isn't that what CCP means by "living and using" the systems they are in?

Yes, living and using the system. Not dumping a couple m³ of compressed ores in a complete backwater system, build a couple hundred Rifters there and increase the ADM without any risk whatsoever in a station/citadel. That is neither living nor using a system and it is what most people, CCP included, see as abuse of the system. The same goes for PI, you can just have low level stuff produced to raise the index to 3 and simply destroy everything you processed there and get the paid taxes back by corps.
Both situations are possible and benefit especially large groups a whole lot more than smaller groups when it comes to increasing ADMs over a large area of space.

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.
Danika Princip
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#5 - 2016-03-28 14:26:43 UTC
If it's done by number of runs, then building small ammo or scripts will bump your indexes easily.

If it's done by volume, then building containers will bump your indexes easily.


Mining can be disrupted in a number of ways. PI and station industry cannot. Using these to bump indexes up makes it too easy to raise the things. It doesn't encourage people to live in the space, it encourages people to game the system to get the highest ADMs for the lowest amount of effort.



And I do T1 and T2 industry, invention and PI, before you start.
Tian Toralen
State War Academy
Caldari State
#6 - 2016-03-28 14:43:52 UTC
Ok I kind of understand, still if keeping indices high should involve danger - at least it should not be boring. Isn't there something else than mining and ratting? And in fact there is no danger while watching intel.
Mining and ratting can only be threatened by AFK campers. Is that not an abuse? You can AFK camp with no danger, so why not be able raise the indices with no danger?

AFK players in space should get decloaked and logged out in 15 min. Still I don't know if CCP would be able to kick a player from the server if they keep pressing a button every 15 minutes - using a bot maybe.

I wrote something here about planetary interaction, sov indices, not sure how that would work. Now I am starting to see it won't work. Let's suppose I'm building my battleship on a planet, and it gets reinforced. Along with 100 other planets, where other players are building stuff, by the same big fleet in the same day. It looks like it would be just like fozziesov - trolling, and if the defenders spread out to defend all, the attackers would just pick a few planets to blob and pillage with certainty.
Asuka Solo
I N E X T R E M I S
Tactical Narcotics Team
#7 - 2016-03-28 14:59:47 UTC
I think the OP is on to something.

There is no reason why building t1 equipment or ships can't add to the development of indices.... albeit, I don't think t1 tech should go a long way in raising any bars.... it should amount to a minuscule increase at best (even in large volumes).

Tech 2, Tech 3 and capital manufacturing should have more weight when it comes to raising those industrial bars. And when I say tech 2, not just ammo (which should be weighted as much as T1 ammo), but actual market relevant volumes of components and ships.

Combined with in system mining activities such as PI, asteroid mining, ice mining and moongoo towers, the whole mechanism should be reworked to be more "inclusive" of industrial activities as opposed to just "mining" with my friends in disposable ventures over the next 48 hours to install the next upgrade and help increase entosis timers etc...

Eve is about Capital ships, WiS, Boobs, PI and Isk!
Asuka Solo
I N E X T R E M I S
Tactical Narcotics Team
#8 - 2016-03-28 15:03:47 UTC
Danika Princip wrote:
If it's done by number of runs, then building small ammo or scripts will bump your indexes easily.

If it's done by volume, then building containers will bump your indexes easily.


Mining can be disrupted in a number of ways. PI and station industry cannot. Using these to bump indexes up makes it too easy to raise the things. It doesn't encourage people to live in the space, it encourages people to game the system to get the highest ADMs for the lowest amount of effort.



And I do T1 and T2 industry, invention and PI, before you start.


I've highlighted the part I disagree with in bold.

1) Entosis the station services with your blob 24/7. If goonswarm can't disrupt a single station's services, then what good are you as a war machine?

2) Destroy all POCOs in the system and permacamp the gates / station to prevent industrial ships from going near the planets.... combat probe the containers if you have to and wait for them to come collect their goods.

Again, we'd expect the biggest alliances in this game to be able to field the man power needed to disrupt a single target's home system.....

Eve is about Capital ships, WiS, Boobs, PI and Isk!
Ghaustyl Kathix
Rising Thunder
#9 - 2016-03-28 16:41:38 UTC
Asuka Solo wrote:
1) Entosis the station services with your blob 24/7. If goonswarm can't disrupt a single station's services, then what good are you as a war machine?

2) Destroy all POCOs in the system and permacamp the gates / station to prevent industrial ships from going near the planets.... combat probe the containers if you have to and wait for them to come collect their goods.

Again, we'd expect the biggest alliances in this game to be able to field the man power needed to disrupt a single target's home system.....
So basically you mean take sov in that system.

Ratters and miners are disruptable. Entosising a station 24/7 and camping everything to keep PI from going isn't disruption; you're outright taking the system.
Danika Princip
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#10 - 2016-03-28 16:45:47 UTC
Asuka Solo wrote:
Danika Princip wrote:
If it's done by number of runs, then building small ammo or scripts will bump your indexes easily.

If it's done by volume, then building containers will bump your indexes easily.


Mining can be disrupted in a number of ways. PI and station industry cannot. Using these to bump indexes up makes it too easy to raise the things. It doesn't encourage people to live in the space, it encourages people to game the system to get the highest ADMs for the lowest amount of effort.



And I do T1 and T2 industry, invention and PI, before you start.


I've highlighted the part I disagree with in bold.

1) Entosis the station services with your blob 24/7. If goonswarm can't disrupt a single station's services, then what good are you as a war machine?

2) Destroy all POCOs in the system and permacamp the gates / station to prevent industrial ships from going near the planets.... combat probe the containers if you have to and wait for them to come collect their goods.

Again, we'd expect the biggest alliances in this game to be able to field the man power needed to disrupt a single target's home system.....


Maintaining a 24/7 hellcamp is not disruption, it's conquest.

Knocking out every poco doesn't stop any PI at all. You can cycle extractors just fine.
Beldantazar
Empyrean Acolytes
#11 - 2016-03-28 18:16:39 UTC
Danika Princip wrote:
Asuka Solo wrote:
Danika Princip wrote:
If it's done by number of runs, then building small ammo or scripts will bump your indexes easily.

If it's done by volume, then building containers will bump your indexes easily.


Mining can be disrupted in a number of ways. PI and station industry cannot. Using these to bump indexes up makes it too easy to raise the things. It doesn't encourage people to live in the space, it encourages people to game the system to get the highest ADMs for the lowest amount of effort.



And I do T1 and T2 industry, invention and PI, before you start.


I've highlighted the part I disagree with in bold.

1) Entosis the station services with your blob 24/7. If goonswarm can't disrupt a single station's services, then what good are you as a war machine?

2) Destroy all POCOs in the system and permacamp the gates / station to prevent industrial ships from going near the planets.... combat probe the containers if you have to and wait for them to come collect their goods.

Again, we'd expect the biggest alliances in this game to be able to field the man power needed to disrupt a single target's home system.....


Maintaining a 24/7 hellcamp is not disruption, it's conquest.

Knocking out every poco doesn't stop any PI at all. You can cycle extractors just fine.


Perhaps only exporting things from the planet to a POCO should count then.
Danika Princip
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#12 - 2016-03-28 18:55:15 UTC
Beldantazar wrote:


Perhaps only exporting things from the planet to a POCO should count then.



So exporting a million units of p0 becomes the best way to increase an industry adm?
FT Diomedes
The Graduates
#13 - 2016-03-28 20:24:09 UTC
This is easily one of the worst ideas I have ever seen on this forum. If the OP's corpmates were in the military, they would be holding a blanket party for him tonight.

If you have not figured it out by now, holding sovereignty is not your right. It is a never ending game of king of the mountain. There is always someone looking to push you off. I say that as someone whose alliance lost our sovereignty over the past week or two. In Eve, you are only as good as your current performance. As soon as you stop to rest, someone else will hit you on the head with a sock full of coins and take everything they can. That's why I love this game.

Coming up with stupid mechanics, which a child could exploit in five minutes or less... You should be embarrassed.

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

Tian Toralen
State War Academy
Caldari State
#14 - 2016-03-28 21:02:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Tian Toralen
So if I don't want to do something boring it means I am "entitled". Mining is just a means to make isk. Maybe I prefer exploration. Or maybe I prefer buying Plex.
Mining is just "using the system" from a roleplay perspective. Building a ship in a station is also "using the system" from a roleplay perspective. I don't care if it's less dangerous, it's not like the minerals bring themselves to the station. Minerals come from my MTU, the enemy can chase me off and shoot the MTU.

Mining is not dangerous at all. Same distance to the station to warp to. It can be stopped by 1 single AFK cloaker. The only way it can be stopped. Else an enemy fleet must put the same effort as the miners, and camp the system. It's not like the miners have to fight anyone, it's just more boring.
Elwha Lynx
The Icarus Expedition
Solyaris Chtonium
#15 - 2016-04-01 20:16:27 UTC
Actually it's wouldn't be a bad idea as long if scaled such that any significant effect takes building at large scale. It's far from no-risk, there's significant risk transporting freighter size shipments of ore and minerals necessary for large scale shipbuilding.
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#16 - 2016-04-01 21:11:57 UTC
Elwha Lynx wrote:
Actually it's wouldn't be a bad idea as long if scaled such that any significant effect takes building at large scale. It's far from no-risk, there's significant risk transporting freighter size shipments of ore and minerals necessary for large scale shipbuilding.

You can transport double digit billions of compressed ore via a JF without any risk. You can BLOPS bridge covert haulers or Prospects with tenths of thousands of cubic meters of compressed ore in their holds. Ore really is not dangerous to transport.

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.