Intergalactic Summit

Because I've already explained to you how he doesn't have absolute authority in those areas, you just perceive him as having absolute authority. The only legitimate example you've provided of an area that he demonstrated absolute authority is the last one. In relation to that, taking money earned through corruption and nepotism and putting it where it rightfully belonged (in the hands of the people struggling to make a place for themselves in what was supposed to be a meritocracy and being denied because of nepotism and aristocratic inheritances) is a one time, rightful use of that authority.

I disagree with the concept of wealth distribution on a basic level, because I believe that taking money that someone has earned and giving it to those that have not earned it is amoral. But taking money they haven't earned and only possess because of corrupt practices, policies and behaviors and giving it to people who have earned it, is the opposite and something I will accept as a necessary step toward a positive restoring of our society.

However, as you stated, we'll just have to see how things "play out."

I'll take your points in order, and allow me to state that I am not necessarily arguing with you.

Cited examples of his conscription and pressuring of his political opponents into compliance would be appreciated. (Not saying it doesn't exist, I would simply prefer to see some cited references).

It has been argued several times in this thread already that despite all of the power Heth holds, he does still have to run his decrees through his peers before they become ratified. Of course, this could tie into the above accusation of political pressuring, which again would be served well by citation.

The rooting out of "corruption" was a restoration of meritocratic ideals within corporations that were headed by the same family or friends for decades while others were more qualified to fill the positions. It is, of course, impossible for me to present evidence for each individual instance, but the historical analysis would seem to reflect the accuracy of this statement.

I completely agree with the assessment of him being a shameless racist and it is one of the things I personally detest about him, nor do I share his viewpoints. Again, cited references to his deportations would be appreciated, if for nothing else than my own records.

For clarity, I do not consider myself a Heth-patriot. I choose to acknowledge the positive things he has done for the State and the Caldari people and equally challenge the controversial and negative things he has done. If it were up to me, the man would be deposed from authority and the State restored to the CEP governing over expanses of the State as if they were districts with the only change to the system being an independent (meaning non-political) corporation being established to "police" the records of the major corporations and act to prevent a repeat descent into aristocracy through investigation and public process.

Thank you kindly, Desiderya-haani!

It seems like those news articles further enforce that Heth was voluntarily put into power by the Kaalakiota board of directors and therefore enacted his "quarantine" with the appropriate vested authority. Furthermore, he didn't deport specific residents of the State, he did the exact opposite by quarantining them and then forcing them to relinquish their assets if they tried to leave.

I am not at all stating that I condone such drastic measures, simply making a clarification. It would seem that his drastic actions were supported by the majority of the Caldari people when they were enacted and while cruel and harsh, were done with appropriate authority and support.

They are examples of how emotional turmoil combined with political clout can lead to dramatic results. We cannot change the past, but we can help mold a better future.

And like that, I am humbled. My sincerest thanks to you, Commodore.

As I stated originally, as a Caldari, it is my firm belief that this fight is the Matari's fight and they will go stronger for the fighting. As a people, they will have the honor and pride to claim as their own that comes from overcoming your obstacles and they will not owe their victory to the Caldari, the Gallente or any of the sub cultures and races therein.

We are refined by the trials we endure, sharpened by the tribulations we face, chiseled by the obstacles we overcome and honored by the path we have walked.

I would not seek to steal that from the Matari, they are a people of merit and worth, an indomitable spirit and a people of endurance. Should the time come that they, as a people, call on the aid of others to fight their fight with them or for them, then I will gladly count myself among those willing to stand beside them.

Until that time, I honor their fight. I honor their spirit. I honor them.

I try to avoid reading into speculative arguments, so I will not entertain his motives for doing what he did. What I will state is that I completely agree the treatment was not justified or humane, but as I stated above it serves as an example of what happens when we combine emotional turmoil with political clout. Every government has examples of this.





I will assume by "State," you actually refer to the Empire (as in, the Amarr Empire) because the Caldari State does not practice any such thing.



While I agree with your sentiment, I would argue that neither your nor I have any right or place to tell the Intaki people how to govern themselves or what sort of government they wish to institute for themselves. Doing so would be the highest level of hypocrisy on my end (as a Independent Caldari) and a repeat of the same things that led to tension between the Caldari and the Federation before.


Now, as I have not at all attacked you or tried to make some manner of petulant attempt at a last word, I would ask that further deliberation for or against the Federation be moved to a separate thread or carried out on a different venue as a matter of respect for the original topic. My contribution to its derailing in the first place is not something I wish to repeat.

The State does not support slavery. Many in the State, including myself, abhor slavery, but, unlike some other empires, we do not wish to dictate how a culture should act unless it is our own.

I don't think fascism, racism, warmongering and dictatorships are all ideals that the Caldari people have held dearly. The people of the State are better than that, and they deserve better than Heth.



People can willingly submit to Heth's orders, and they he may have popular support, but that doesn't mean he isn't a dictator. A dictator does not have to violently obtain power and go against the grain of the masses to be a dictator.

It always has to come down to a debate, doesn't it? I have been patiently trying to avoid another finger pointing session but you simply keep persisting.

Your first mistaken presumption is that the Caldari militia is a capsuleer militia and it is not encouraged to aid in the subjugation of the Republic, individual pilots and corporations involved in the militia may choose to do so but those are not on orders from the State.

Secondly, the Caldari State has never accepted a grant of wealth, what we did was accept an investment from the Amarr Empire into our business and economy and, as is honorably expected of us, have worked toward a return on their investment. Engaging in business with another government that practices things you do not condone or practice does not make you a practitioner of those things, unless you want me to state that the Gallente-Amarr Free Trade Agreement also indicts the Federation for engaging in business affairs with the Amarr.

What you're apparently failing to grasp (or intentionally overlooking for the sake of making a point) is that the Caldari do not dictate to others how to govern their own societies, I understand that's a hard concept to grasp for the ever-expanding Gallente Federation, as can be seen in: the "experimental" Minmatar Republic, which is a Gallente-backed democracy uniting only four of the seven major tribes, the cause of the original tension between the Caldari and the Gallente, the current tension between the Federation and the Intaki, the reluctant acceptance of the Jin-Mei caste society to avoid "political repercussions" (at least you're learning, even if it isn't sincere) and the Federation's continued mindset that other races simply aren't fit to govern themselves, demonstrated very aptly by your own words.

I could continue with how your government is run by, in its own words, a robber baron and scoundrel.


Or how it practices the same exiling of persons that you accused the State of earlier, or how it currently boasts a large number of poor due to its own "market-driven" economy (which you also tried to accuse the State of being unethical because it didn't "take care of its poor"), or how it engages in unethical business practices such as the incident in Azure Chasm



I could continue but what's the point? You've continued to try and point the moral and ethical finger of accusation at the Caldari State and Caldari people while vehemently stating your superiority. As I've stated before throughout this thread, every government has sins to account for, continuing to try and play the "blame game" is nothing short of irritating and petulant.

I am done discussing this with you.

Very well, if you want more than a couple of 'radio talking points' then I will try to provide.

You may think that accusations like 'racist' and 'fascist' and 'dictator' are unfounded, I will attempt to show that they are not.

Fascism is an interesting subject, academics have long debated it's true nature and it is often misapplied to the Megacorporations. But I will use a working defintion to show Heth and his regime are indeed fascists. The definition I will use here is: "Fascism is a form of violent ultra nationalism that attempts to cause a 'rebirth' of the nation. This regime is typically governed by a single dictator with a strong cult of personality surrounding them."

Tibus Heth's current regime was founded on this idea of national rebirth. From his opening speech after being appointed CEO of KK:



We can clearly see the theme of rebirth, he explicitly refers to rebuilding the State and states that Caldari culture should move back towards it's beginnings. The changes to the existing meritocracy are a prime example of this in action. Tibus Heth's policies were aimed directly at returning the Caldari to a prior state which he believed to be better.

The same speech contained strong nationalist themes as well:



We can see that Heth explicitly expounds the greatness of the State, this is contrasted against the Federation, who are implied to be treacherous, an undesirable thing. He also calls upon the people of the State to defend it's borders, to provide a strong barrier between the great nation of the State and other, weaker nations.

The invasion of Caldari Prime is an example of both rebirth and nationalism in action. The recapturing of the Caldari Prime represents the Caldari people going back to their roots, returning to a time when things were better. It also provided an example of the 'Caldari spirit' prevailing over the supposedly inferior Federation by reclaiming what had been taken by the Federation years ago.

That he imprisoned ethnic Gallente, along with the anti-Gallente tones in both his, and Provists speeches demonstrate the racist nature of Heth and his regime.

The cult of personallity that surrounds Heth has been manufactured through his public appearances and those of Provists loyal to him. In these speeches exhortations that he is a true Caldari patriot fighting against the tyranny of rich executives and the Gallente menace were made.

As for his dictatorship we have already made many points, I will attempt to answer some of your counterpoints:

First is his control of the industrial output of the mega corporations. Your counterpoint that the megas willingly gave the CPD control. In what way does the willingness of the megas to hand over the keys effect his control? A mega could just leave the agreement, but consider this. Assume that a hypothetical company willingly entered into an agreement with a hypothetical dictatorship, that company could refuse to follow orders and break the agreement; this does not mean they were not under the control of the dictatorship, and it does not mean the dictatorship is not a dictatorship.

Next were his orders to imprison ethnic Gallente. You say he had appropriate authority to do so because he was put in power of KK by KK executives. However this did not just effect KK, but occurred across the State because Tibus Heth ordered it. This shows Heth did in fact overstep his presumed legal authority over KK. You also say the Caldari people supported such actions, giving validity and showing that Heth is not a dictator. Unless Heth drew his mandate to rule from the people through some democratic process the actions were still dictatorial.

From his anti-Gallente words and actions, we can see that Heth is certainly leading a racist regime. From his actions espousing national rebirth and nationalism as well as his dictatorship supported by a cult of personality we can see that Heth is a fascist dictator. He is not the benign CEO of KK and Caldari Constructions that many here make him out to be. Heth is a danger to the wellbeing of the Caldari State, and if the price of a stronger meritocracy is Tibus Heth, then the Caldari people should find another way.

tl;dr: Heth is a fascist dictator and should be considered harmful to the Caldari State and it's people.

I wasn't pointing any moral fingers. I was just making an obvious point about how being allied on a national level with a group that supports slavery and then turning around and accusing the a different government of opressing the people being enslaved is little hypocritical. My point, made in response to Maximillian Triton after he decided to insult my government unprovoked, ends there. I believe it was on-topic.

It was you who decided to launch into another anti-federate rant. You have a good way of talking around a greater issue by trying to address it piece by piece, instead of seeing the whole, and masking it with condescension.

By the way, I acknowledge you might have a limited understanding of democracy, but the President doesn't run the government, just one branch.