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Wormhole citidels

Author
Duke Wendo
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#1 - 2016-03-21 10:19:05 UTC
I'm not sure if this has been discussed already, but here goes -

Medium outposts cost around 350-700 million. That's basically 1 combat site.

My current understanding is that there's no limit how many outposts you can build in a system- is that correct?
Also when an outpost is destroyed, assets are moved to another friendly outpost in system- that's according to this

"This option will be working the same way for all locations, and will be the only way to recover items out of wormhole space."

So, what's to stop any bigger corps littering their system with enormous numbers of citidels?

Iv'e never been one for evicting or invading - shooting structures has never been fun, but I can see it getting way worse having to shoot through millions of hitpoints to clear out a system.

Does anyone know if citidels will get the system bonuses applied to it? If it does I can see c5 and c6 citidels having stupid high hit points and/ or damage output.

I'm surprised and disappointed that they had to include an 'asset recovery' system- what is destroyed should be lost- wherever you live.
Jezza McWaffle
Lazerhawks
L A Z E R H A W K S
#2 - 2016-03-21 11:08:23 UTC
They've changed since then, there will be no asset recovery in wormholes.

Wormholes worst badass | Checkout my Wormhole blog

Duke Wendo
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#3 - 2016-03-21 11:35:40 UTC
I heard some people say this too, but could not find anything official- do you have a link?

Also- what's their reasoning that WH people don't get asset recovery, yet everyone else does?
unimatrix0030
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#4 - 2016-03-21 12:02:07 UTC
They did in :
https://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/citadels-sieges-and-you-v2/

The reasoning is simple, if you have asset safety a wormhole would be the safest place in eve.
No need to defend yourself in an eviction, just wait 10 days put a new citadel up and get al your stuff back -10% loot denial fee.
There would absolutly be no way to remove someone from a wh.
Personaly i think this will even be a problem in null , making losing space/citadels not even have any impact (minus the small 10% loot denial fee)... .
No loss= no impact on people = losing the best feature of eve.

No local in null sec would fix everything!

Duke Wendo
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#5 - 2016-03-21 12:46:59 UTC
Yup, thank you for the link...

"We revaluated our position on Wormhole space asset safety from our “I feel safe in Citadel city” blog. Structures destroyed in wormhole space will see all of their assets lost when destroyed and subject to the magical loot fairy rules that would normally apply for ship cargohold."

So why are we the only ones having our stuff drop? I understand how hard it would be to attack a WH system, but surely its just as difficult to attack a null alliance? All assets should drop on destruction- everywhere!
Obil Que
Star Explorers
Solis Tenebris
#6 - 2016-03-21 13:22:02 UTC
Duke Wendo wrote:
Yup, thank you for the link...

"We revaluated our position on Wormhole space asset safety from our “I feel safe in Citadel city” blog. Structures destroyed in wormhole space will see all of their assets lost when destroyed and subject to the magical loot fairy rules that would normally apply for ship cargohold."

So why are we the only ones having our stuff drop? I understand how hard it would be to attack a WH system, but surely its just as difficult to attack a null alliance? All assets should drop on destruction- everywhere!


Because k-space has stations and outposts and they are 100% safe. No one would use Citadels while stations are an option. They mirror the station/outpost functionality in k-space.
Duke Wendo
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#7 - 2016-03-21 13:55:12 UTC
Obil Que wrote:
Because k-space has stations and outposts and they are 100% safe. No one would use Citadels while stations are an option. They mirror the station/outpost functionality in k-space.


Thanks man, I think that's the reason, yeah.

Still kind of sucks that there will be millions/ billions of hitpoints to chew through for little to no gain outside of J-space.

Why are CCP so against losing stuff? Just make NPC station tax sky high or phase it out so only high/ low sec stations allow asset safety. Compensate players/ alliances for current towers/ stations and have citidels replace structures out in player- owned space- then its up to the players to defend or destroy stuff.

Null and J-space should be 100% destructible - what you build you must defend or lose.
Peter Moonlight
Suddenly Carebears
#8 - 2016-03-21 14:56:09 UTC
Duke Wendo wrote:
Obil Que wrote:
Because k-space has stations and outposts and they are 100% safe. No one would use Citadels while stations are an option. They mirror the station/outpost functionality in k-space.


Thanks man, I think that's the reason, yeah.

Still kind of sucks that there will be millions/ billions of hitpoints to chew through for little to no gain outside of J-space.

Why are CCP so against losing stuff? Just make NPC station tax sky high or phase it out so only high/ low sec stations allow asset safety. Compensate players/ alliances for current towers/ stations and have citidels replace structures out in player- owned space- then its up to the players to defend or destroy stuff.

Null and J-space should be 100% destructible - what you build you must defend or lose.

Those "millions" / "billions" of hitpoints in kspace easily get sorted because you can cyno/gate travel infinite amounts of capitals/subcapitals/supers/titans/reinforcements and when you bring super/dread blob that EHP is like nothing in k-space..

Where in wormhole space if you are invading C5/C6 you need to rageroll/seed capitals + scout hostiles day/night for weeks/months and pray that no one notice you seeding capitals + if you are seeding trough k-space it requires enormous effort if your hostiles are active. And now with watchlist nerf it becomes much harder to scout hostiles.

When you sum it all down wormholes are still safest.
Duke Wendo
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#9 - 2016-03-21 15:02:17 UTC
You have good points there.... I still think it's a sad state of affairs that things we blow up in k-space are 'protected'
Obil Que
Star Explorers
Solis Tenebris
#10 - 2016-03-21 19:49:15 UTC
Duke Wendo wrote:
Obil Que wrote:
Because k-space has stations and outposts and they are 100% safe. No one would use Citadels while stations are an option. They mirror the station/outpost functionality in k-space.


Thanks man, I think that's the reason, yeah.

Still kind of sucks that there will be millions/ billions of hitpoints to chew through for little to no gain outside of J-space.

Why are CCP so against losing stuff? Just make NPC station tax sky high or phase it out so only high/ low sec stations allow asset safety. Compensate players/ alliances for current towers/ stations and have citidels replace structures out in player- owned space- then its up to the players to defend or destroy stuff.

Null and J-space should be 100% destructible - what you build you must defend or lose.


Actually Citadels are again an improvement here vs a POS. When a Citadel is destroyed it will not only drop materials from in-process manufacturing jobs (in the future, when those service modules are created) but it also will drop a percentage of the build materials which, in the case of Large and X-Large, is a considerable sum.
Duke Wendo
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#11 - 2016-03-21 20:05:11 UTC
For wormholes, the problem with that I can see is that if Citidels are anything like a NPC station environment is people inside a Citidel thats about to go down will 'select all' -> 'trash' .

It could be a lot easier to deny than the old days of self destructing every individual ship. I'm not much of an industrial player- can manufacturing and research jobs be cancelled?

Maybe ccp have already thought of this and will disable those kind of abilities at a certain stage of reinforcement....
unimatrix0030
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#12 - 2016-03-22 10:51:50 UTC
Well i hope they would disable trash when it is reinforced.
I don't think industry will be big on citadels, ccp has announced other structures like citadels wich are specialised in industry.
But that all depends on the final data they will use... .

No local in null sec would fix everything!

lanyaie
Nocturnal Romance
Cynosural Field Theory.
#13 - 2016-03-22 11:16:47 UTC
Duke Wendo wrote:
For wormholes, the problem with that I can see is that if Citidels are anything like a NPC station environment is people inside a Citidel thats about to go down will 'select all' -> 'trash' .

It could be a lot easier to deny than the old days of self destructing every individual ship. I'm not much of an industrial player- can manufacturing and research jobs be cancelled?

Maybe ccp have already thought of this and will disable those kind of abilities at a certain stage of reinforcement....


That's exactly what I'm thinking, to me it seems like the most common thing people will be doing if they're going to die is just deny anyone their loot. A simple fix to that would be not allowing the trashing of items while your Citadel is under attack or something like that.

Spaceprincess

People who put passwords on char bazaar Eveboards are the worst.

Edward Olmops
Gunboat Commando
#14 - 2016-03-23 14:58:14 UTC
Well. Consider this:

Things with loot inside are more likely to get destroyed. Thus the safety will drop if the trash option is disabled.
If people know they are less safe, they will less likely use the structure in the first place...

That aside, there will always be a good amount of loot since the building materials can drop partially.
unimatrix0030
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#15 - 2016-03-23 19:00:20 UTC
What is the safety difference between being able to trash things or not?
The guy trashing it still loses everything.... .

No local in null sec would fix everything!

Rek Seven
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#16 - 2016-03-24 15:52:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Rek Seven
At one of the wormhole town hall discussions organised by Corbex and attended by a CCP developer, the vocal majority of the wormhole community said that they didn't what asset safety in wormhole space, as that would go against the status quo.

Due to the abundance of wormhole systems and the lack of significant system benefits, loot drops and personal "beefs" are the only conflict drivers for evictions.

I too would like to see the ability to trash/reprocess items disabled during a reinforcement timer.
Duke Wendo
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#17 - 2016-03-24 18:26:29 UTC
I agree that if people put the time and effort in destroying your citidel, they should get a normal 'kill' i.e 50% chance of everything inside.

I don't mind high sec/ low having a reduced drop and having the magic, invisible NPC helpers protect your assets, but why does null get that protection?

Doesn't make sense to me that the 2nd most dangerous part of space gets asset protection.
Soltys
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#18 - 2016-03-26 01:28:17 UTC
In K-space, instead of 10% delivery fee - it would be much more interesting to submit it to 10% random loot fairy drop (and 0% delivery fee of what didn't drop). ITOW 10% of the whole pool of stuff in the destroyed citadel gets dropped and can be looted.

And TBH, in the K-space instead of such constant '10% drop' I'd differentiate it per system security/class:

- from 0% (1.0) to 9% (0.1)
- npc null 10%
- non-npc null .... something sizably large - especially if w-space "enjoys" 100%. At least 50% I'd say, or same as w-space.

Jita Flipping Inc.: Kovl & Kuvl

Trinkets friend
Sudden Buggery
Sending Thots And Players
#19 - 2016-03-26 02:14:53 UTC
I am encouraged that people are giving feedback on this issue.

Maybe could have done it 6 months ago in the feedback thread. But you know, better late than never.