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Null Buff Incoming
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Wacktopia
Fleet-Up.com
Keep It Simple Software Group
#61 - 2012-01-12 17:14:15 UTC
Zarnak Wulf wrote:
I am a bit shocked that I didn't find any threads on this. Null has it's 25% range modifier increased to 40% on SISSI. Discuss.


Did you mean 40% to optimal and falloff (current null is 25% to both) or just one of the modifiers changed to 40%?

Kitchen sink? Seriousy, get your ship together -  Fleet-Up.com
Antodias
Ship spinners inc
#62 - 2012-01-12 17:18:08 UTC
Will this allow blasterboats to project a decent amount of damage within (overheated) scram range? Could make a big difference, and increase the GTFO ability of the ships if they can pulse the MWD
Wacktopia
Fleet-Up.com
Keep It Simple Software Group
#63 - 2012-01-12 17:23:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Wacktopia
Antodias wrote:
Will this allow blasterboats to project a decent amount of damage within (overheated) scram range? Could make a big difference, and increase the GTFO ability of the ships if they can pulse the MWD


I think the main point of contention at the moment is that it will take the range of something like a nano-Diemos....

From: 7.31KM + 19.2km
To: 8.91 + 21.5km

Essentially you can read the change roughly as a "Free extra Tracking Enhancer" from a range perspective on a ship like that.

Edit: See my post two posts below for some charts showing the effects.

Kitchen sink? Seriousy, get your ship together -  Fleet-Up.com
Stabs McShiv
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#64 - 2012-01-12 17:28:36 UTC
So nothing to get worked up over dosnt hold a candle to scorch for bs sized ships all it means is Gal might be able to get in one more volley before the targets outside fall off at least for med/large and its still in web range for small so no difference at all.
Wacktopia
Fleet-Up.com
Keep It Simple Software Group
#65 - 2012-01-12 17:32:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Wacktopia
A couple of rough comparison charts...

Shield Nano Deimos (with Barrage Vaga comparison)

Std Neutron Mega (with Scorch comparison)

Kitchen sink? Seriousy, get your ship together -  Fleet-Up.com
Jerick Ludhowe
Internet Tuff Guys
#66 - 2012-01-12 17:44:37 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
Assault frigs are going to obsolete interceptors and faction frigs. Potentially cruisers and maybe some HACs too.

-Liang


But BCs don't obsolete cruisers right?Roll
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#67 - 2012-01-12 18:07:35 UTC
I feel pretty comfortable taking my AFs up against BCs on TQ... its just going to get worse once the boost hits.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#68 - 2012-01-12 18:09:10 UTC
Wacktopia wrote:
Antodias wrote:
Will this allow blasterboats to project a decent amount of damage within (overheated) scram range? Could make a big difference, and increase the GTFO ability of the ships if they can pulse the MWD


I think the main point of contention at the moment is that it will take the range of something like a nano-Diemos....

From: 7.31KM + 19.2km
To: 8.91 + 21.5km

Essentially you can read the change roughly as a "Free extra Tracking Enhancer" from a range perspective on a ship like that.


More like an optimal scripted TC, but sure. :P

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Wacktopia
Fleet-Up.com
Keep It Simple Software Group
#69 - 2012-01-12 18:10:47 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
Wacktopia wrote:
Antodias wrote:
Will this allow blasterboats to project a decent amount of damage within (overheated) scram range? Could make a big difference, and increase the GTFO ability of the ships if they can pulse the MWD


I think the main point of contention at the moment is that it will take the range of something like a nano-Diemos....

From: 7.31KM + 19.2km
To: 8.91 + 21.5km

Essentially you can read the change roughly as a "Free extra Tracking Enhancer" from a range perspective on a ship like that.


More like an optimal scripted TC, but sure. :P

-Liang


Check out my graphs, Liang. I had to mess around with the data a bit but I think I got it about right?

Kitchen sink? Seriousy, get your ship together -  Fleet-Up.com
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Divine Damnation
#70 - 2012-01-12 18:27:00 UTC
Wacktopia wrote:

Check out my graphs, Liang. I had to mess around with the data a bit but I think I got it about right?


Yeah I saw that. It looks roughly like the ones I made about 30 seconds after I heard about the boost, and I came to the same conclusion about it already. My thoughts on it are:
- The hybrid boost was really good already. The null change may not be strictly necessary in and of itself.
- Many people are still QQing about hybrids. The null change isn't that dramatic on its own but may very well be enough to make people re-evaluate the pre-existing boost and create a FOTM out of it.

Like I said - one of the crowning achievements of the hybrid boost was that it was sufficiently powerful to make the ships viable and sufficiently weak not to create an instant FOTM (a sure sign that you ****** up bad at design).

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.
Hrett
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#71 - 2012-01-12 19:41:29 UTC
Yeah, its like a free range scripted TE for blasterships. Swap another TE in to replace a mag stab and this will give ships a few more options.

I still think rails needs a slight tracking or dps tweak, but the hybrid changes are shaping up nicely.

Now if they would fix armor tanking so most of the rigs (maybe excluding trimarks) dont nerf your speed into oblivion, I willl be a happy camper.

spaceship, Spaceship, SPACESHIP!
Wacktopia
Fleet-Up.com
Keep It Simple Software Group
#72 - 2012-01-12 20:03:03 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
Wacktopia wrote:

Check out my graphs, Liang. I had to mess around with the data a bit but I think I got it about right?


Yeah I saw that. It looks roughly like the ones I made about 30 seconds after I heard about the boost, and I came to the same conclusion about it already. My thoughts on it are:
- The hybrid boost was really good already. The null change may not be strictly necessary in and of itself.
- Many people are still QQing about hybrids. The null change isn't that dramatic on its own but may very well be enough to make people re-evaluate the pre-existing boost and create a FOTM out of it.

Like I said - one of the crowning achievements of the hybrid boost was that it was sufficiently powerful to make the ships viable and sufficiently weak not to create an instant FOTM (a sure sign that you ****** up bad at design).

-Liang


Yeah, agree with that. Personally I think the change to the Mega chart is meh whilst the Deimos is getting me excited enough to fly that ship like a Vaga.

Kitchen sink? Seriousy, get your ship together -  Fleet-Up.com
Biced
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#73 - 2012-01-13 05:09:41 UTC
nano eagle/moa/ferox anyone? Twisted
Aamrr
#74 - 2012-01-13 12:30:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Aamrr
Hrett wrote:
Yeah, its like a free range scripted TE for blasterships. Swap another TE in to replace a mag stab and this will give ships a few more options.

I still think rails needs a slight tracking or dps tweak, but the hybrid changes are shaping up nicely.

Now if they would fix armor tanking so most of the rigs (maybe excluding trimarks) dont nerf your speed into oblivion, I willl be a happy camper.


I've suggested capacitor consumption on propulsion modules as an alternative in the past. It didn't receive much attention, but those who saw it generally liked the idea.
Diomidis
Pod Liberation Authority
#75 - 2012-01-13 20:28:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Diomidis
Woot - actually the DPS graphs did scare me a bit...
I mean, the null utilization was always TERRI-BAD...I never understood why, as I was using it in my ranis..yeah, never flown (and lost) more than 3-4 large blaster-fitted BSs, but that wasn't an issue of blasters being bad or not Roll
It was funny tho that "lasers were OP due to scorch", but null was thought to be useless. Carry only AM was the dogma, and whine in the forums cause the other boat could overheat a web and/or kite you...

The Mega vs. abby graph is scary, and so would the Hyp vs. Abby one...still with a tracking and cap usage advantage for both blaster boats...the "med-range" niche for laser boats is greatly diminished. I don't care about the Vaga vs. Deimos case - I think the Vaga has certain advantages over it, and it's not a ganking ship - If it's hard to pick a Vaga over a nano-cane, there are little chances to pick a Deimos over it (the cane) too. Cane is not slower, has more buffer, more cap and more neuts. Oh, and it's cheaper by far.

Again, as I've wrote in my 1st post and ppl stated above: all in all a slight buff in range (thought it was only in optimal at first, thus I got only Caldari blaster boats in mind) is not bad, but it adds up to an already impressive buff blasters got in general - speed for hulls / tracking / close range T2 ammo / cap use / fitting reqs / ammo swapping+reload speed and ofc dmg output.

It adds up to "OP" at some point, as with the null changes there goes the "point blank" argument. Blasters are becoming better than ACs in most stuff other than dmg selectivity, and outclass lasers clearly in all "in-point-range" situations. Things get broken exactly when there is no weakness, or when there are walk-arounds to all weaknesses. The "Achilles-heel" for blasters was always range - now in anything other than close-range-BS blob fights, that's pretty much gone.

Well, hell with it...let Gallente be FOTM again - something always is better than the rest, and ppl will always whine about stuff, even if its irrelevant ti actual game issues.


Also about pvp - get real, it's like racing: you race to win, or you don't race. If you race to be "2nd", you are called a loser (anywhere but the US, there they call you second winner)...ofc you can re-evaluate the situation to mitigate some bitterness (I was outnumbered, they had falcons, etc) , but 2nd is never good enough.

So, when someone engages you or you engage sth, inside the aggressors head the probability of killing or getting out if things are bad, is higher than the "alternative". It's called picking your fights. It works in RL too, even not in war-zones. If you don't do it, you deserve what you are going to get.

"War does not determine who is right - only who is left." -- Bertrand Russell

Lili Lu
#76 - 2012-01-13 21:21:40 UTC
Mfume Apocal wrote:
Naomi Knight wrote:
even if we who actually pvp know their claims are not true


You don't actually PvP.

Mfume, I'm sure you know by now that Naomi is a whiney caldari rp forum alt troll. I finally got around to click down arrow - hide posts. It's really the only thing to do.Smile
m0cking bird
Doomheim
#77 - 2012-01-13 21:49:42 UTC
Diomidis wrote:
Woot - actually the DPS graphs did scare me a bit...
I mean, the null utilization was always TERRI-BAD...I never understood why, as I was using it in my ranis..yeah, never flown (and lost) more than 3-4 large blaster-fitted BSs, but that wasn't an issue of blasters being bad or not Roll
It was funny tho that "lasers were OP due to scorch", but null was thought to be useless. Carry only AM was the dogma, and whine in the forums cause the other boat could overheat a web and/or kite you...

The Mega vs. abby graph is scary, and so would the Hyp vs. Abby one...still with a tracking and cap usage advantage for both blaster boats...the "med-range" niche for laser boats is greatly diminished. I don't care about the Vaga vs. Deimos case - I think the Vaga has certain advantages over it, and it's not a ganking ship - If it's hard to pick a Vaga over a nano-cane, there are little chances to pick a Deimos over it (the cane) too. Cane is not slower, has more buffer, more cap and more neuts. Oh, and it's cheaper by far.

Again, as I've wrote in my 1st post and ppl stated above: all in all a slight buff in range (thought it was only in optimal at first, thus I got only Caldari blaster boats in mind) is not bad, but it adds up to an already impressive buff blasters got in general - speed for hulls / tracking / close range T2 ammo / cap use / fitting reqs / ammo swapping+reload speed and ofc dmg output.

It adds up to "OP" at some point, as with the null changes there goes the "point blank" argument. Blasters are becoming better than ACs in most stuff other than dmg selectivity, and outclass lasers clearly in all "in-point-range" situations. Things get broken exactly when there is no weakness, or when there are walk-arounds to all weaknesses. The "Achilles-heel" for blasters was always range - now in anything other than close-range-BS blob fights, that's pretty much gone.

Well, hell with it...let Gallente be FOTM again - something always is better than the rest, and ppl will always whine about stuff, even if its irrelevant ti actual game issues.


Also about pvp - get real, it's like racing: you race to win, or you don't race. If you race to be "2nd", you are called a loser (anywhere but the US, there they call you second winner)...ofc you can re-evaluate the situation to mitigate some bitterness (I was outnumbered, they had falcons, etc) , but 2nd is never good enough.

So, when someone engages you or you engage sth, inside the aggressors head the probability of killing or getting out if things are bad, is higher than the "alternative". It's called picking your fights. It works in RL too, even not in war-zones. If you don't do it, you deserve what you are going to get.



Truth! Gal wont b op though
Korg Tronix
Mole Station Nursery
#78 - 2012-01-13 22:11:18 UTC
Mfume Apocal wrote:
Naomi Knight wrote:
even if we who actually pvp know their claims are not true


You don't actually PvP.


I think he is mad because we didnt accept him in when he applied for corp

Evil: If I were creating the world I wouldn't mess about with butterflies and daffodils. I would have started with lasers, eight o'clock, Day One! [zaps one of his minions accidentally, minion screams]
Ahrieman
Codex Praedonum
Divine Damnation
#79 - 2012-01-13 22:22:30 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
Assault frigs are going to obsolete interceptors and faction frigs. Potentially cruisers and maybe some HACs too.

-Liang


Exactly. My poor claw Straight

Solo Rifter since 2009
Ahrieman
Codex Praedonum
Divine Damnation
#80 - 2012-01-13 22:36:23 UTC
Naomi Knight wrote:
Born Again Gallente wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:
Just how much ISK do you think I'm talking about spending here? That's a purely named/T2 fit I'm talking about.

-Liang


What named/t2 disruptor is giving your AF a 38km point?

I mean, do you honestly want to start assuming forward tackle runs with ganklinks?

add that they are doing this called "pvp"

they sit in amamake all day along,everyday
they have a gang up i quess always with a gang booster somewhere safe in the system

then use this tactic:
some frigs out for looking for preys if they find one and sure they are totally safe to tackle they broff in ts/corp chat so the others can undock and warp to the target , and blob kill it
if enemy somehow manages to suprise them with some friends and or a falcon:P they come to qq on forum how op ecm is, as it took away safe "pvp" from them :(

oh forgot they are flying long range frigs mostly so if enemy is stronger than expected they **** their pants and warp to safe /dock up

low sec pvp in its highest form:P

and somehow they think they can know what is op and what is up from balance perspective, dont mind to add in theoretical situations and sisi/test changes which havent came out yet , they know everything
so pls dont be a moron and dont oppose their believes , go support their posts it makes them feel good , they need it as they are not so favoured in other things in life , let them have this one ,even if we who actually pvp know their claims are not true



Confirming that everyone in eve but us only fights fair fights and never uses all available assets to gain the advantage in a fight Roll

Solo Rifter since 2009