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The blood we shed.

Author
Mizhara Del'thul
Kyn'aldrnari
#1 - 2016-03-23 10:51:56 UTC
Yesterday, Isbrabata finally fell.

It's been several days of intermittent fighting, with lulls in between battles when one side or the other was sufficiently outnumbered that engaging would be fruitless waste of lives and resources, punctuated in a reasonably middling fight (by Min/Amarr facwar standards) at the ihub, where we held the field quite comfortably. These days have been marked by a lot of... shall we say enthusiastic disregard for risk analysis and a "frak it, let's go for it" mentality as the capture status has gotten closer. After the last fight, where we decided to make the system costly even if it was inevitably going down, though... I got curious as to the actual cost.

How much did we all decide to throw away for bloodsport and fury? How much blood is required to sate our collective bloodlust? I decided to check the numbers on this infinitely tiny snapshot in the now years and years of unending bloodshed.

The one final battle at the ihub tallied 11 regular frigates, 2 advanced frigates, 7 destroyers, 1 advanced destroyer, 24 regular cruisers, 2 advanced cruisers and 1 carrier on the Imperial side. 3 frigates, 2 advanced frigates, 1 destroyer, 3 cruisers, 2 advanced cruisers, 6 combat battlecruisers, 6 attack battlecruisers and 2 battleships went down for the Tribal forces.

Total for both sides, 52+26 ships downed in one middling battle.

Using conservative numbers for fully combat crewed capsuleer vessels, taking the reduced crew requirements for advanced vessels into account, the average survivor rates published by official studies and giving ballpark estimates for higher survivor rates for vessels surviving long enough for more crew to escape, the tally in blood is around ten thousand dead crewmembers for the Amarr and eleven thousand for the Matari.

The numbers are obviously estimates, with room for one or two thousand casualties more or less for both sides. It'd require a far more detailed analysis of combat footage, alphas and more to get to a more accurate number unless the non-capsuleer authorities ever release actual numbers rescued from the field.

So, an estimated twenty-one thousand lives, in a tiny snapshot of the bloodsport we call "the proxy war". A very great deal more died in battles before this, yesterday alone. Many battleships and cruisers buckled and exploded quickly and bloodily when we ambushed them after the system first went vulnerable, and when we sat back and let them take it back up to vulnerable in order to actually bait out this slaughter.

One system. Very conservative estimates would count the total loss of lives for it in the hundreds of thousands. What did these people die for, I wonder? Did they believe in some grand cause we all know doesn't exist in the proxy war? Did they believe in the pay and exorbitant life insurances? How many were slaves with no choice?

One thing is for certain. No bloodlust was sated. The tidal waves of blood and suffering will not end in Isbrabata.

All for us. All for our need to inflict it upon others.

Oh, and just one minor public note. I've found it almost impossible to find myself in fleets not infested with... undesirables, the last few months. Sansha, Blooders and other creatures are an ever-present annoyance ensuring that I largely have to fly on my own and thus reducing my effectiveness both offensively and as support. As the options are completely abandoning all principles and values of the Tribes or finding a new path, I am forced to leave Ushra'Khan and go at it alone for the immediate future.

I do mourn for the complete lack of any even remotely Matari entities in New Eden these days, carrying the values and principles of home into space, but it is as it is. We will have to see what happens next, I suppose.
Deitra Vess
Non-Hostile Target
Wild Geese.
#2 - 2016-03-23 11:59:13 UTC
Well, I applaud those who bravely fought outnumbered. Your other points I'm sorry you feel that way though I can't say I blame you.
Mizhara Del'thul
Kyn'aldrnari
#3 - 2016-03-23 12:10:53 UTC
The numbers were equal. We were below by two, until some third parties came along and turned the numbers so we were up by two. Throughout the rest of the day, the numbers fluctuated for both sides, as usual. The system fell when we left the pods for the night.
Deitra Vess
Non-Hostile Target
Wild Geese.
#4 - 2016-03-23 12:23:34 UTC
So you were equal strength in the short war but got overwhelmed in the long war..... Still my words don't change. Thanks to those who fought, you did what you could and that's alot more than others did.
Sinti Vailatti
Angelis Exploration
#5 - 2016-03-23 15:01:41 UTC
Friggen terrible.

But really, who is the enemy of the People here?

Is it the Amarr? Yeah, kinda. I mean that's tradition. We're supposed to hate them, right?

Is it the Republic? Maybe...

I think the real enemy is this whole system where the best people from both sides die for a scrap of space. And how can you even own space? Seriously, the tech is getting so that you don't even need jump gates as much anymore. We can go anywhere, wander anywhere. Look at how effective and attractive Thukker caravans are becoming.

I was a slave. I earned my freedom. But how many of us trade slavery to the Empire for slavery to this broken-ass paradigm?

There are better ways folks.




“Where must we go...we who wander this wasteland, in search of our better selves?”

Rinai Vero
Blades of Liberty
#6 - 2016-03-23 15:39:38 UTC
Losing a system you've fought hard to keep is never easy, especially if it's a home system. Losing brave and experienced crews is worse, but we risk it far more often. Star systems can be retaken, lives are lost forever.

It falls to each of us to advocate within our governments for more decisive action. It is up to them to either negotiate the peace or remove the restrictions that have dragged out this "proxy war." Its up to us to make them do it.
Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#7 - 2016-03-23 16:15:02 UTC
Rinai Vero wrote:
It falls to each of us to advocate within our governments for more decisive action. It is up to them to either negotiate the peace or remove the restrictions that have dragged out this "proxy war." Its up to us to make them do it.


Gravestones and mourner's
Garb, charms against dust and ash:
They quiet war drums.
Mizhara Del'thul
Kyn'aldrnari
#8 - 2016-03-23 17:58:54 UTC
Losing systems is largely irrelevant, really. That's what makes throwing so many lives at keeping or taking them so tragically funny that it has to be the greatest joke ever told by the Empires. Not that we'll stop doing it, of course.
Valerie Valate
Church of The Crimson Saviour
#9 - 2016-03-23 18:18:31 UTC
Mizhara Del'thul wrote:
Losing systems is largely irrelevant, really.


I've heard tales, that most, if not all of the systems on the Minmatar side of the "designated warzone", have no civilian population left. That all the worlds had been evacuated as resources permitted, when the war broke out.

E.g. Amamake, for example, had a civilian planetary population of 0. There were only a relative handful of military personnel in various facilities on the planets. The civilian station population was presumably not zero, since Amamake has many stations, some of which would have been neutral in this particular conflict.


I expect that a fair number of the worlds on the other side of the zone had also been similarly evacuated.

"We are in control now", say the conquerors. Control of what ? Empty planets ? That will change hands again in the fullness of time ?

Doctor V. Valate, Professor of Archaeology at Kaztropolis Imperial University.

Persephone Alleile
Tartarus Covert Operations
#10 - 2016-03-23 18:32:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Persephone Alleile
The Emergency Militia War Powers Act is a joke. I can see CONCORD's reasoning in passing the act, it probably makes their lives a lot easier not having to intervene in clashes between capsuleers aligned with rival governments, just give them a playing field and a set of rules and let them have at it! It's like a game only there is no end in sight, no victory conditions, just endless combat. Good for the war economy that drives New Eden, bad for the baseliners caught in the crossfire.

The human cost of these back-and-forth wars is huge as Mizhara has mentioned, not only for the militia ship crews and members of the baseliner navies, but also for those who happen to live on planets included in the designated warzones. The Intaki homeworld and her colonies for example suffer regular disruptions in shipping on account of shifting sovereignty and also the piracy that is rampant in the warzones. It's unfortunate that the Federation would allow the homeworld of one of it's member states to languish in such conditions, but I suppose that is a topic for another thread.
Rinai Vero
Blades of Liberty
#11 - 2016-03-23 18:34:13 UTC
Mizhara Del'thul wrote:
Losing systems is largely irrelevant, really.


I was talking about the experience of fighting for them and losing.

Does it make it worse or better when you've lost a fight for something "irrelevant?" Arguments could be made on both sides.
Rinai Vero
Blades of Liberty
#12 - 2016-03-23 19:02:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Rinai Vero
Persephone Alleile wrote:


The human cost of these back-and-forth wars is huge as Mizhara has mentioned, not only for the militia ship crews and members of the baseliner navies, but also for those who happen to live on planets included in the designated warzones. The Intaki homeworld and her colonies for example suffer regular disruptions in shipping on account of shifting sovereignty and also the piracy that is rampant in the warzones. It's unfortunate that the Federation would allow the homeworld of one of it's member states to languish in such conditions, but I suppose that is a topic for another thread.


I don't think the Federation had much choice in the matter when we had a Caldari Titan parked in our home system. My heart breaks for the hardship inflicted on the Intaki people, but one can't lay responsibility for every harm done exclusively on the Federal Union. No Caldari military offensive through placid has ever been called off to avoid humanitarian impact on Intaki that I know of. In fact, there has been a disturbing history of certain Intaki Capsuleers joining or directly aiding the State Protectorate forces in their "regular disruptions."
Veikitamo Gesakaarin
Doomheim
#13 - 2016-03-23 19:37:51 UTC
Isn't it beautiful?

Good thing too. I just need the 24IC to push into tier 5 for a few months and an associate of mine can ensure my lifetime supply of Imperial Navy equipment.

A tip of my fedora to the dead in Isbrabata whose lives and blood contribute to the padding of my wallet.

Kurilaivonen|Concern

James Syagrius
Luminaire Sovereign Solutions
#14 - 2016-03-23 19:40:57 UTC
Rinai Vero wrote:
Persephone Alleile wrote:


The human cost of these back-and-forth wars is huge as Mizhara has mentioned, not only for the militia ship crews and members of the baseliner navies, but also for those who happen to live on planets included in the designated warzones. The Intaki homeworld and her colonies for example suffer regular disruptions in shipping on account of shifting sovereignty and also the piracy that is rampant in the warzones. It's unfortunate that the Federation would allow the homeworld of one of it's member states to languish in such conditions, but I suppose that is a topic for another thread.


I don't think the Federation had much choice in the matter when we had a Caldari Titan parked in our home system. My heart breaks for the hardship inflicted on the Intaki people, but one can't lay responsibility for every harm done exclusively on the Federal Union. No Caldari military offensive through placid has ever been called off to avoid humanitarian impact on Intaki that I know of. In fact, there has been a disturbing history of certain Intaki Capsuleers joining or directly aiding the State Protectorate forces in their "regular disruptions."
A point very well made.
Mitara Newelle
Newelle Family
#15 - 2016-03-23 20:00:29 UTC
I know this shall fall on deaf ears, but I will say it anyways - If you would just stop resisting, Ms Del'thul, none of this would necessary.

Lady Mitara Newelle of House Sarum, Holder of the Mekhios province of Damnidios Para'nashu, Champion of House Sarum, Sworn Upholder of the Faith, Divine Commodore of the 24th Imperial Crusade

Admiral of Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris

Mizhara Del'thul
Kyn'aldrnari
#16 - 2016-03-23 20:06:41 UTC
Release my people, and none of this will be necessary.
Rinai Vero
Blades of Liberty
#17 - 2016-03-23 20:44:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Rinai Vero
Mizhara Del'thul wrote:
Release my people, and none of this will be necessary.


One would think that if Slavery was as good for the soul and humanely practiced as the Amarr often claim, that it'd be no problem to simply release everyone. All the happy slaves would then joyously replace their bonds and toil on in the name of spiritual enlightenment!
Skyweir Kinnison
Doomheim
#18 - 2016-03-23 20:53:46 UTC
Rinai Vero wrote:
Mizhara Del'thul wrote:
Release my people, and none of this will be necessary.


One would think that if Slavery was as good for the soul and humanely practiced as the Amarr often claim, that it'd be no problem to simply release everyone. All the happy slaves would then joyously replace their bonds and toil on in the name of spiritual enlightenment!


Or opt to be slaves themselves. Since it's demonstrable that Amarr are at least as sinful as any other people, there would surely be spiritual benefit for every citizen of the Empire to devote, say, twenty years of their life to the greater good as a slave, thus releasing the Minmatar to go about their own business without compromising the economy with decadent practices like paying people for their labour.

Humanity has won its battle. Liberty now has a country.

Bataav
Intaki Liberation Front
Intaki Prosperity Initiative
#19 - 2016-03-23 21:03:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Bataav
Mizhara Del'thul wrote:
How much did we all decide to throw away for bloodsport and fury? How much blood is required to sate our collective bloodlust?

The answer those these questions is appalling, across all of the warzones. It is perhaps for the best that such catastrophic numbers remain unknown. If calculated the statistics would test the hearts and minds of each and every one of us.

Persephone Alleile wrote:
The Intaki homeworld and her colonies for example suffer regular disruptions in shipping on account of shifting sovereignty and also the piracy that is rampant in the warzones. It's unfortunate that the Federation would allow the homeworld of one of it's member states to languish in such conditions, but I suppose that is a topic for another thread.

That those in power allow the Intaki system to suffer as part of the warzone is one of the reason a group such as ours exists, and continues to draw new support from others similarly disgusted at the status quo. Unfortunately dedicated threads regarding the security concerns of the Intaki system and colonies are regularly derailed, often becoming distracted by the wider Federation/State conflict.

I'll do my best not to do the same here. My apologies in advance if my efforts fall short.

Rinai Vero wrote:
My heart breaks for the hardship inflicted on the Intaki people, but one can't lay responsibility for every harm done exclusively on the Federal Union.

Agreed, and while those in the Federation may feel that they are the sole focus of criticism, this isn't the case. Both sides in the conflict bear responsibility for the hardship caused as a result, and the Intaki Assembly has questions of its own to answer.

Rinai Vero wrote:
No Caldari military offensive through placid has ever been called off to avoid humanitarian impact on Intaki that I know of.

Again, true, but as I have said in the past, it's interesting that when advancing through Placid, State forces observed and respected the border with the Intaki Syndicate. We believe this reinforces the argument that an Intaki outside the Federation, and by default the conflict with the State, would not suffer the specific challenges that the proxy war brings.

Rinai Vero wrote:
In fact, there has been a disturbing history of certain Intaki Capsuleers joining or directly aiding the State Protectorate forces in their "regular disruptions."

Capsuleer.

Singular.

A long time ago one individual acted in contravention of established policy, threatening to undermine a core part of what we are about. As a result they were given a simple choice. Follow the rules of engagement or leave. They chose the latter.

It seems that although years have passed since the pilot in question moved on, their legacy remains.

But then I understand why that is.

These events have provided the Federal militia with a convenient narrative of "ungrateful rebels" in Intaki, operating as a fifth column for the State. It stirs the patriotic hearts back home in Luminaire and Villore, and it legitimises the continuation of the status quo in the minds of those who have convinced themselves of the myth that only the Federal militia can protect the freedoms of Placid's citizens, despite evidence to the contrary.
Persephone Alleile
Tartarus Covert Operations
#20 - 2016-03-23 21:07:59 UTC
Rinai Vero wrote:
Persephone Alleile wrote:


The human cost of these back-and-forth wars is huge as Mizhara has mentioned, not only for the militia ship crews and members of the baseliner navies, but also for those who happen to live on planets included in the designated warzones. The Intaki homeworld and her colonies for example suffer regular disruptions in shipping on account of shifting sovereignty and also the piracy that is rampant in the warzones. It's unfortunate that the Federation would allow the homeworld of one of it's member states to languish in such conditions, but I suppose that is a topic for another thread.


I don't think the Federation had much choice in the matter when we had a Caldari Titan parked in our home system. My heart breaks for the hardship inflicted on the Intaki people, but one can't lay responsibility for every harm done exclusively on the Federal Union. No Caldari military offensive through placid has ever been called off to avoid humanitarian impact on Intaki that I know of. In fact, there has been a disturbing history of certain Intaki Capsuleers joining or directly aiding the State Protectorate forces in their "regular disruptions."


I understand the sentiment, this is a complex situation with a long history and to blame one group exclusively is certainly unfair, but the facts remain the same: the Intaki people, founding members of the Federated Union of Gallente Prime, have had their home-world reduced to a low security backwater in an active war zone.

I think we Intaki can relate to the Caldari people. Our cultures may be different, but we both have the experience of being a minor voting bloc in a large democracy, which can be frustrating. We are a peaceful people and would likely not be able to stand on our own militarily, but that was not the case with the Caldari. Many of us supported the Caldari people's right to self-determination and hoped for a peaceful resolution, but we all know how that turned out. For our lack of faith in the Gallente cultural hegemony the more outspoken were exiled to null security space where they were denied the right to live on planetside and, with the founding of CONCORD, the politicians in Villore decided that Virette contellation was to be designated as low security.

I don't think it's too hard to see why Mordu's Legion attracts so many Intaki, or why so many of Intaki capsuleers are disillusioned with the way things in the Federation are run. I mean when millions were killed in a terrorist attack on Reschard V was it the Federation that came to their aid? Of course not. The only way an Intaki is accepted in the Federation is if we give up our own cultural heritage and move out of Placid, otherwise all we get is contempt.
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