Missions & Complexes

Let's work on the tank first, the Bastion module is considered apart of the Hull for this discussion, so considering that, what tank is the most effeciant? 2 slot? 3 slot? We don't want to over Tank, we want just enough to Tank most standard Missions, and assuming you don't aggro the whole room. Now, while passive Tanks have their place, the Golem has bonuses that improve active Tanking modules, so EHP is not the concern here, we are looking at how much active Shield Tanking, or, you need to handle level 4 Security Missions, so, I leave this to the community, what do you all think and why? What is enough Tank? We are focusing on Omni damage Tanking, the ball is in your court now, let's compile as much input as possible before we make a decision based off your input!

For any Marauder 2 slot tank is enough for the hardest missions, like Worlds Collide or The Assault, considering using some faction modules. For the rest of the missions even 1 slot is enough.

@Tarojan: Medium Booster running on perma verse the XL running on burst, this is what I want to work on, what is the most efficient is what I am trying to work out, cause I have used a Medium and it doesn't tank much (Around 800 with Bastion running, Omni damage of course), albet, I was testing it in a 5/10 Guristas DED.. So that might be why, they deal more DPS then a level 4 Mission I think.. Someone will have to confirm that for me.

@Kaiden krios: A 2 Slot Tank with T2? Or with DED/Faction Modules? This makes a hell of a difference, as once you start increasing the base cost by too much, you actually loose overall efficiency.

@Donnachadh: First of all, thanks for the awesome reply, very good! I will point out that there is the perfect efficiency fit, for running level 4 Missions, if you remove the person preference, I have none, I mean, I fly a Dual Rep Hyperion for PvP, with Nano Ravens, and Nano Megathrons to Moonwalking Megathrons and Hyperions, I don't have person preference to anything, I just like what is works, so a 'perfect' fit can be achieved if you are looking at numbers only, which is what you do in a theory crafting session, your not thinking about what Pilot A or B want, or that Pilot C wants a spolier on his, you care about getting the best numbers and efficiency, that is what I am looking for.

As you say on the 2 Slot Tank (Going to call this 2ST from now on), is very hard to hold up, I tried the 2ST for a Guristas 5/10 Site, and for Worlds Collide and Berserk, and I found it did not work, especially in those rooms where you land dead center of a BS fleet, haha! Though to be honest, I haven't tried MJD once or twice to get a range tank going to, but against Guristas that is almost pointless (Lol, Missiles). So I was thinking an T2 Invun and then a Mission Specific Hardener, or twin Invun, but drawing blanks as to what is overall better.

As for the MWD and MJD, I don't like the idea of MWD as the 25% hit to your Cap capacity is a bit much for me to like on something that costs almost 2bil ISK, but, that being said, I don't know how hard that 25% would hit a properly tanked Golem. And I guess the MWD would be better on Torpedo boats then a Cruise boat, given the range difference, though you can get Torpedo's to over 70km Range with T2 Jav, which would make the MJD better choice for those Torpedo boats, no?

With Bastion, I would assume it is the reason you buy the Hull, hence why I said it is included as the Hull, otherwise why not just use a Raven Navy Issue, or a different Battleship, haha! And yes, that is a double edged sword I hadn't considered.. Thank you for pointing that out.

I come from a PvP background so being Cap Stable isn't something I am focused on, but Missioning is a different beast all together, would a Cap Injector work as a counter measure to this? Or are they generally not as efficient as Cap Batteries or Rechargers? Because the T1 Charges are extremely cheap, and you can fit 2-3 reloads without harming your Cargo Bay.

I personally favour Torpedo's cause they seem like the premier weapon for the Golem, but trying Cruise last night, even with T1 Launchers and Faction Ammo, I was applying much more DPS to Cruisers, so I am thinking a switch might be beneficial, but want to get some more info on the general concensus before I move back PvP related skills for Cruise T2. What are your thoughts on Rapid Heavy Launchers for PvE? Does the reload time cripple them so that the overall DPS isn't actually the same? Even with better application that Heavy Missiles would apply?

I would want a balance between Tank and Gank, as pure DPS can leave you dead when you don't bring enough and don't have enough defence, and to much Tank might leave you in a Mission for an hour plus, most of the EFT fits I am getting with Cruise bring me at 800-900 DPS with T2 Fury, which I think would be enough, I have tried these Missions in a PvP fit Rattlesnake, but that could Buffer run the Missions, and shot out 1200-1300 DPS, however, that wasn't that effeciant, Warp outs and the like, hence the upgrade to a Golem, I wanted a more dedicated PvE boat.

Okay, I get what your saying, what I am looking for is a Level 4 Mission boat, capable of doing all level 4 Missions without a refit, that has enough Tank to hold against the incoming DPS, and enough DPS to break the enemy at an acceptable rate, while remain efficient, in both an ISK matter, and clearance time, and no, I don't want a blitz ship, I would go for the Mach or Rattle if that is what I wanted, I actually enjoy level 4 Missions so far, trying to get in more Roleplay stuff with EVE, and it gives me the chance :P be nice, it is Sandbox, no way of playing is wrong, haha! But I do genuinely enjoy it after doing a fleet or 2, but I want to be able to do them at a good rate, without making myself a Loot pinyata that deserves to die, and without Warping out, if this is too hard, let me know, but I wanted to get as much input as possible, and I thought it would be fun to see what the community can come up with when you get a lot of people involved in the theory crafting, you get to see different perspecives that I myself might not have considered or thought of, so yeah :) thanks for the massive informative reply!

I was waiting for the mighty trolls of EVE-O to come :P and thanks man, glad to have some positive feedback :) and wait.. There is a such a thing as too much Archer, cause "Er, phrasing", haha! :D

A 2 slot Tank work if you control the triggers, and works better on the Golem because of its damage projection witch is the best. I had a Gist-B Large Shield Booster and a Dread Guristas Invulnerability, and was to OP, just for precaution.

When i used Kronos i had t2 tank, just a Large Armor Repairer II and a Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II, and it worked fine.

what I use for tank in is a large shield booster and 2 invul fields all t2 to avoid looking more of a target, I also usually MJD out when I land and use distance to my advantage.

un until the last patch in jan, I was 1 hitting frigates, not takes 5 or so vollies

Not to critique, but this should have at least a pair of Faction BCUs and four BCUs total - as this will increase DPS by 10%. The MGC should also be precision as opposed to range-scripted (because this gives you more damage application than the pair of T2 flares) and the rigs should ideally be a pair of T2 hydraulics or T2 hydraulic/rocket fuel. I'm on the fence with the MGE because it does slightly augment your range and damage application. Depending on the mission this may be enough to offset the -5% DPS loss for the fourth BCU.

@Donnachadh: When theory crafting a fit, people don’t care about anything so long as it fits the desired roll, for example, you don’t use a Moa as a part of an Alpha Doctrine, when the Rupture is superior, even though I, hate the Rupture, with a burning passion, I still make fits for it, and still run fleets of them, because they are the best choice for that roll and cost. Personal preference actually drops effectiveness if anything, cause if it is a personal choice then you aren’t concerned about the numbers, your argument would work if I was just putting together a normal fit, I wouldn’t come to the forum, but because I have tried all the different ways so far, and everything seems to be lacking, hence I thought doing a theory crafting session would be interesting and fun, and actually introduce a lot of PvE people to the process behind a lot of good PvP fits and Doctrines, rather then throwing on modules we like more, it’s all about efficiency, person preference is the opposite. There is one guy on these forums that dual tanks with a Armour Rep on his Golem, which is great cause that is how he likes to play, that is his personal preference, is it efficient? Probably not, but it works for him and he likes it, will a Golem with a 5 Slot tank work? Yes, is it efficient? Probably not, not enough Application modules, see what I mean? It is a balancing act, and that is where the numbers come in and personal pref flies out the window.

Why a Golem instead of the others? Efficiency, Missiles while not the best platform for PvP, excel in PvE, they always hit, and they have the better range, less focus can be spent on Transversal and Angular, and once you get used to counting volleys, they do more damage and you can select the damage type, also, they are a Capless weapon, which is why I like it more then the Kronos, and the Paladin, which allows all your Cap to go to your defences and Application modules.

Why not a Rattle? Had this conversation last night with some guys, Rattlesnake has more DPS, yes, it has a great tank, it has Drones and Missiles, so fully selectable damage types for both weapon systems. So why not choose it? Show me a sub 2bil Rattle that can solo a C5 Site? Show me a Rattle fit that still does 800-1000 DPS at 200km while Salvaging Wreaks and Looting, show me a Rattle that can not be Jammed or Damped into the ground, Golem is more Agile as well, has a faster Warp Speed, has better Cargo, and doesn’t rely on Drones, which are a destroyable weapon system, for half it’s DPS, a Golems DPS can not be halved, and it only has to worry about the travel time of the Missiles, the Rattle requires attention to your Drones, and both weapon systems have longer then the Golem travel speeds, and once your Drones start taking damage you have to pull them back, and that is 800 DPS off the field that isn’t working, this is why the Golem, cause it is superior as an all in one unit, which is more capable in less thought of ways, was there a personal choice in this? Honestly I wanted a Kronos since I PvP in a Mega and like the Hull more, I choose the Golem based purely of the stats available to me, that and it is the most common Marauder by far (There is one Local Vargur pilot, 0 Paladin pilots, 1 Kronos pilot, and like 10+ Golem pilots). Also, anyone who chooses a car based on the sticker on it rather then what the car is capable of and it’s spec, so to say, is a moron.

As for the fit, nice, but why that many Neuts/Vamps? Gank defence? Or to turn off the tanks of the NPC’s? Also, gathering this fit just warps in hits Bastion and relies on killing everything fast enough before the Cap breaks? Cause it has no way to escape if your tank breaks, you can’t just disable the Bastion and wait for the cycle to MJD out of Point range. Would put out enough DPS to make that a tiny chance but still.

And yes, 4 different choices, but I can tell you, as I’m sure you know, some aren’t as efficient as others, you put them all on the same missions one by one, bet money that the completion times are different by a bit, so once again we come back to what I asked in the beginning, what is most efficient, theory crafting is about numbers, nothing else, you try and get the absolute maximum from the Hull, and you push for even more out of it, if you make personal choices rather then the better choice, your losing efficiency, which is fine for some, but not the premise of this thread, this thread is for theory crafting the most efficient fit from the Golem Hull based off the numbers and theory behind it, that is all.

@Kaiden krios: I still have to learn the triggers for missions, but is this 2 Slot Tank you uses enough to hold the DPS at bay? Or enough to keep the shields above 1% for you to kill them before your shield breaks? Because this is a factor to consider, if you accidentally trigger something you didn’t mean to (Mistakes happen even to the best), your Tank would snap in an instance if it isn’t able to hold the DPS at bay. Also, what are you other Mid slots since you save 5 for what ever you you want with a 2 Slot Tank?

@ChromeStriker: Nice fit, however, I think a Single Nado can volley that.. And there are 3-4 on my undock most days, so I might have to give the Polar fit a miss, thanks though :P

@Agondray: So you use a range tank as well? And you find T2 Modules do you fine? On that, do you aggro everything? Or do you engage one group at a time?

"Gank-magnet" and the Gist X-Type are mutually exclusive. In for a penny - in for a pound... You get a 40% bonus with a pair of T2 flares and a 33% bonus with a single precison-scripted MGC. In addition, you don't lose any damage application with the MGE due to stacking penalties and since explosion radius trumps explosion velocity, you're actually getting better damage application with a precision-scripted MGC/MGE over the MGE/flares. If you're running +5/6 missile application implants this makes a big difference as well.

I personally value missile velocity over range as it enables you to destroy targets faster and you lose less volleys in-transit (especially with the high ROF on Polarized torpedoes). As I've previously mentioned, I'm on the fence on whether a MGE offers more benefit than a 4th BCU. The new Grappler also adds an interestng twist. Last, with torpedoes a MJD is probably essential for any missions where the engagement range is over 80km.

I'll just add this personal question here about target painters.

I don't like painters. There I said it. They have a fall off range which I normally cruise beyond (pun intended). Add to that they are just one more fiddly thing to have to use and one more step beyond target and open fire before I get to see explosions. Given I already use auto targeters to relief myself of the chore of having to click on countless frigates, I really can't be bothered to use them.

Am I penalising/slowing my mission times down by a great deal if I don't use painters, but instead use 3 missile guidance comps with 4 BCS? rigs are HVS2s because I really can't not rig that way any more unless I have to.

So something like

Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II
Ballistic Control System II
Caldari Navy Ballistic Control System

Missile Guidance Computer II, Missile Precision Script
Missile Guidance Computer II, Missile Precision Script
Missile Guidance Computer II, Missile Precision Script
Large Micro Jump Drive
Pith X-Type X-Large Shield Booster
Adaptive Invulnerability Field II
500MN Afterburner II

Bastion Module I
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Inferno Fury Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Inferno Fury Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Inferno Fury Cruise Missile
Cruise Missile Launcher II, Inferno Fury Cruise Missile
auto targeting system II
salvager II
salvager II

hypervelocity optimiser II
hypervelocity optimiser II