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Assault Frigates....
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Brokk Witgenstein
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#41 - 2016-03-22 07:14:55 UTC
Think the point got lost in translation. I am looking (hoping) for slightly improved assault frigs, perhaps a tweak or a role bonus; but the whole argument about "T3Ds do it all better" .... well YES I admit they ARE way better. They're excellent destroyers. They, however, are not the subject of this thread.

For one, there are many counters to a T3D including T1 Cruisers, a couple of assault (or pirate) frigs, pirate cruisers, HACs, recons, ... they are really not that OP. But none of that matters in this thread.

What we want, is a good reason to fly Assault Frigs and yup: price is one of them. The same argument can (and has) been raised in relation to T3 cruisers -- but the price is right so there is a good reason to prefer a Pilgrim over a Legion, or a Muninn over a Loki.

That's what I'm trying to get at. Bringing T3D cost a little more in line with the power you get IS a nerf. But you cannot nerf the properties of the T3 destroyer class into the ground to make frigates viable again because, you guessed it: destroyers are ANTI-FRIGATE platforms.

Assault frigs could use a little more speed, perhaps yes. But more importantly, they need fitting room imho. You can slap whatever you like onto a Svipul, but you can barely fit the smallest artillery guns on a Jag. That's not a problem with the T3, it is clearly an issue with ancient assault frig stats that haven't been updated in 10 years while module requirements and turret characteristics have changed. They need a little update, that's all.
Oreb Wing
Last Rites.
#42 - 2016-03-22 07:23:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Oreb Wing
T3D's need a skill point loss, just like the t3 cruisers. The are alike in every way within their weight class. To Nerf them further would make them useless.
Td3's being so much better is the reason AF's aren't looking so good. They don't need a buff, they need a food chain adjustment, because at the moment it doesn't resemble a pyramid at all. More like a squash or pear; the are many t1 frig and dessies, few AF's. A skill loss would level things out emotionally and economically.
Ben Ishikela
#43 - 2016-03-22 13:55:35 UTC
i like the agility buff proposal. However they might become more like interceptors and that would be fine. Just remove Assault frigates altogether. makes no sense to have them.
I like the general idea of having to go bigger, if you want more damage or a ship capable of the DPS-Role...

Ideas are like Seeds. I'd chop fullgrown trees to start a fire.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#44 - 2016-03-22 15:57:28 UTC
Brokk Witgenstein wrote:
Think the point got lost in translation. I am looking (hoping) for slightly improved assault frigs, perhaps a tweak or a role bonus; but the whole argument about "T3Ds do it all better" .... well YES I admit they ARE way better. They're excellent destroyers. They, however, are not the subject of this thread.

For one, there are many counters to a T3D including T1 Cruisers, a couple of assault (or pirate) frigs, pirate cruisers, HACs, recons, ... they are really not that OP. But none of that matters in this thread.

What we want, is a good reason to fly Assault Frigs and yup: price is one of them. The same argument can (and has) been raised in relation to T3 cruisers -- but the price is right so there is a good reason to prefer a Pilgrim over a Legion, or a Muninn over a Loki.

That's what I'm trying to get at. Bringing T3D cost a little more in line with the power you get IS a nerf. But you cannot nerf the properties of the T3 destroyer class into the ground to make frigates viable again because, you guessed it: destroyers are ANTI-FRIGATE platforms.

Assault frigs could use a little more speed, perhaps yes. But more importantly, they need fitting room imho. You can slap whatever you like onto a Svipul, but you can barely fit the smallest artillery guns on a Jag. That's not a problem with the T3, it is clearly an issue with ancient assault frig stats that haven't been updated in 10 years while module requirements and turret characteristics have changed. They need a little update, that's all.


Again, fitting room is supposed to be tight so you have to make hard choices, T3D as you rightly point out have too much fitting room. They also beat hands down all the t1 destroyers. What they should be is highly adaptable destroyers, not the I win ship they currently are. AF are very well balanced, they don't overpower the ships around them and if flown well can beat the likes of t1 destroyers/sabers and even cruisers.

T3D do need a nerf to bring them into line with destroyers, they need less fitting room, a bigger sig, drawbacks to each mode (speed mode reduces tank for example), lose the ability to change mode while jump cloaked and reduce the agility to that of a destroyer. Do these things and AF will be much more viable.
Oreb Wing
Last Rites.
#45 - 2016-03-22 18:08:32 UTC
baltec1 wrote:


Again, fitting room is supposed to be tight so you have to make hard choices, T3D as you rightly point out have too much fitting room. They also beat hands down all the t1 destroyers. What they should be is highly adaptable destroyers, not the I win ship they currently are. AF are very well balanced, they don't overpower the ships around them and if flown well can beat the likes of t1 destroyers/sabers and even cruisers.



I agree with everything here, in your 1st paragraph.


baltec1 wrote:
T3D do need a nerf to bring them into line with destroyers, they need less fitting room, a bigger sig, drawbacks to each mode (speed mode reduces tank for example), lose the ability to change mode while jump cloaked and reduce the agility to that of a destroyer. Do these things and AF will be much more viable.


The Svipul has already received a fitting nerf, and as I stated above: everything you've said here has been said about t3 cruisers and how they correspond to HAC's. The only thing that keeps t3's in line is their subsystem cost and the SP loss. T3D's just got a materials nerf as well, a skill loss addition would bring them about nicely, imo, withouth any further hurting a good thing. Nerf them any further and Advanced Destroyers will remove any relevance that they have. The hunt for them will be much nicer and more rewarding than seeing svipul after svipul everywhere as we do now.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#46 - 2016-03-22 18:57:43 UTC
Oreb Wing wrote:


The Svipul has already received a fitting nerf, and as I stated above: everything you've said here has been said about t3 cruisers and how they correspond to HAC's. The only thing that keeps t3's in line is their subsystem cost and the SP loss.


Cost means squat to people like me.


Oreb Wing wrote:

T3D's just got a materials nerf as well, a skill loss addition would bring them about nicely, imo, withouth any further hurting a good thing.


Again cost means nothing and skill loss has no impact on T3C usage.


Oreb Wing wrote:

Nerf them any further and Advanced Destroyers will remove any relevance that they have.


I assume you mean the command destroyers, if you assume those a free from my glare fear not. Nerfing the T3D down to the level where t1 destroyers are a viable option will not stop them from being powerful ships but they will not be so powerful they invalidate everything around them.
Oreb Wing
Last Rites.
#47 - 2016-03-22 19:38:33 UTC
All true, but the skill loss would set people back on time and lower their application slightly and decrease their presence. What I don't like is talk about nerf that completely destroys their niche. What they really need to get touched is the miscellaneous out-of-mode bonuses. They are too high. The Confessor and Svipul need to be brought down to 5% dmg along with the Jackdaw and Hecate. Their long-range weapon system already have high alpha and the best projection. Their speed is alright unlinked.
SandKid
Sunset Logistics Company
#48 - 2016-03-23 02:23:09 UTC
Two thoughts, one of which already mentioned earlier...

1) Give them a niche that makes them relevant again. The whole 'role' train of thought.
-A significant survival buff such that they are very dangerous to take on solo (raw hp, speed, sig...w/e)
-EWAR immunity (except scrams of course)
-Unique module, perhaps a strong anti-drone AoE that allows them to engage much larger targets in groups
-T1 Destroyers are ranged and multipled frigate chassis damage. Make AFs the same - higher range and damage in a nimbler platform (T2)

2) Develop content for them - i.e. PvE content (which always involves PvP of course) that requires heavy duty frigates.
-Think gated sites restricted to frigates that requires high survivability and solid damage
-Tweak frigate WHs such that AFs fill out that heavy dps role they originally did...

I love AFs but I have yet to have a situation I actually wished I was flying one...so I get where OP is coming from. They don't even have a basic 'this is the ship to use' situation. T3s really have blown a hole in this ship class. I personally think pirate frigs need to be further balanced toward ewar/dmg balance so that AFs can be king of the hill for raw dmg and survival. This allows T2 ewars to still be relevant by being king of their realm with pirates forming an intermediary as a robust, multipurpose platform.
Stitch Kaneland
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#49 - 2016-03-23 13:52:15 UTC
SandKid wrote:
Two thoughts, one of which already mentioned earlier...

1) Give them a niche that makes them relevant again. The whole 'role' train of thought.
-A significant survival buff such that they are very dangerous to take on solo (raw hp, speed, sig...w/e)
-EWAR immunity (except scrams of course)
-Unique module, perhaps a strong anti-drone AoE that allows them to engage much larger targets in groups
-T1 Destroyers are ranged and multipled frigate chassis damage. Make AFs the same - higher range and damage in a nimbler platform (T2)

2) Develop content for them - i.e. PvE content (which always involves PvP of course) that requires heavy duty frigates.
-Think gated sites restricted to frigates that requires high survivability and solid damage
-Tweak frigate WHs such that AFs fill out that heavy dps role they originally did...

I love AFs but I have yet to have a situation I actually wished I was flying one...so I get where OP is coming from. They don't even have a basic 'this is the ship to use' situation. T3s really have blown a hole in this ship class. I personally think pirate frigs need to be further balanced toward ewar/dmg balance so that AFs can be king of the hill for raw dmg and survival. This allows T2 ewars to still be relevant by being king of their realm with pirates forming an intermediary as a robust, multipurpose platform.


1) Buff to fitting, speed and cap is the main thing they need
- EWAR immunity is not a good idea, as it effects larger ships for no reason. EWAR is all larger ships have to counter smaller ones. To make AF "good" again, we don't need to nerf every ship larger than a cruiser. AF's are already good at countering larger ships, but have issues dealing with ships in their same class (frigs/dessies/t3d/CD)
-AF already have the same range bonuses as the destroyers (minus the algos/dragoon drone speed bonus)

2) You're thinking of burner missions, where AF were used widely to complete them. Though with T3D's coming out, i'm sure people have shifted to using those (assuming they are allowed into the missions).

By giving them additional fitting, speed and cap, it eliminates a lot of their current weaknesses and they can fit much better tanks, add more damage mods, or actually get a passable active tank without capping out immediately. Some of the AF also need some trait swapping/changing as well (like the jag, wolf, hawk and ishkur imo)

Give Battlecruisers range to fullfil their Anti-Cruiser role - OP SUCCESS

Make the Muninn great again!
Oreb Wing
Last Rites.
#50 - 2016-03-23 15:53:17 UTC
I would support a propulsion cycle time buff for the retribution, harpy, wolf, and Ishkur. The rest have their strengths already, imo. If you t2 rig them, they have very nice fitting. A bonus to ab or mwd cycle length should boost cap considerably. I don't know why only pirate frigs see faction/deadspace props. I do support a slight inertia or mass reduction.
Corvald Tyrska
Valknetra
#51 - 2016-03-23 22:23:07 UTC
Oreb Wing wrote:
I would support a propulsion cycle time buff for the retribution, harpy, wolf, and Ishkur. The rest have their strengths already, imo. If you t2 rig them, they have very nice fitting. A bonus to ab or mwd cycle length should boost cap considerably. I don't know why only pirate frigs see faction/deadspace props. I do support a slight inertia or mass reduction.


The problem with the Wolf and Retribution is that regardless of role bonuses they will always have extremely niche uses. With two mid slots you have to pick two of: prop mod, web, scam//point. Kiting with prop mod and point is possible but difficult due to fitting restrictions on those ships and attempting brawl is virtually pointless as you lack either range control or the ability to stop your opponent leaving. That is not to say they can't act in those roles, it certainly can be done, but there are plenty of better options across the entire T1 and T2 frigate lineup which are far more effective in those roles against other frigates and against larger targets there are plenty of better choices across the frigate, destroyer, and even cruiser lines. The Wolf even has great shield resists but trying to throw a shield tank in there screws things up even worse for choices.

Looking at each of the Assault Frigates individually, not just as a whole, can you really say for each of them that there are scenarios where they would be your number 1, go to choice? The problem at the moment is that even with a better role bonus across the board, several of them would still be lackluster. The ships really need an individual balance pass and there should be something in the game that makes you think "Damn, I really wish I had my Wolf (or any other specific Assault Frigate) now."

Oreb Wing
Last Rites.
#52 - 2016-03-24 01:13:37 UTC
Corvald Tyrska wrote:


The problem with the Wolf and Retribution is that regardless of role bonuses they will always have extremely niche uses. With two mid slots you have to pick two of: prop mod, web, scam//point. Kiting with prop mod and point is possible but difficult due to fitting restrictions on those ships and attempting brawl is virtually pointless




You'd be surprised what a ship with just a scram on can do. derptron ftw
General Vachot
The Vendunari
End of Life
#53 - 2016-03-24 01:48:11 UTC  |  Edited by: General Vachot
Was my idea so bad it never even got flamed...sniffle sniffle.

I want to be able to viably have a choice to fly my svipul or my enyo in pvp knowing I am going to have fun.

I disagree with nerf to T3D - beyond that insta-warp thing but I agree with some tweaks to AF to give them a home. I think that home is not where is used to be as a solo PVP machine anymore (they can also be great cheap ratters for newer players). I think its new home needs to be the med-high speed heavy tackler so it sits between all the other frigates and dessy.

Inty - very high speed ultra light tackler bubble immune, low dps
Frigates - high speed tackle low tank - can be short or longish range low-moderate dps
Faction frigates - high-very high speed light tackle, moderate dps
EAF - specialised tackle and ewar
T1 dessy - anti frigates and EAF
T3D - anti frigate, anti T1 dessy and medium speed heavy tackle

AF should be med-high speed heavy tackle with good close (no long range) dps. Its for ASSAULTING - that happens up close in any definition you look up.
Oreb Wing
Last Rites.
#54 - 2016-03-24 03:52:46 UTC
General Vachot wrote:


AF should be med-high speed heavy tackle with good close (no long range) dps. Its for ASSAULTING - that happens up close in any definition you look up.



Maybe you have not seen the way we use the Enyo in Gallente Faction Warfare. What you envision has been done since the day 'compact' class modules came to us and allowed her to sport Electrons, a mwd, and a 400mm plate. She's the perfect killer.

Also, you said you don't agree with further nerfing the T3D's. Maybe you should have added "anti-Cruiser" to the mix of what they are already. If you don't, then what you envision for them is most definitely a nerf, which would be a stealth buff for AF's, as it is with every creature when you cull a dominant predator.
Oreb Wing
Last Rites.
#55 - 2016-03-24 04:05:41 UTC
On top of this, we use the Harpy in a specialized way, the Hawk is seen often in Placid, the Wolf has great dps but would be great if it could neut a little better and longer. The Retribution with a bonus to prop duration would make it a big brother to the way we see the Slicer often down here. All would be good, as the Harpie's cap is not the best and would allow her to sport a neut more effectively as well. Do I even need to add that the Ishkur could be used as the Tristan is often used too?

If you have seen the multitude of ways i've seen these ships flown, in the busiest killing ground of Eve, maybe you would be more optimistic of where most of the AF's already are, and how we could bring these other four into more specialized roles with changes that compliment the bonuses -- and uses -- they presently possess.

Come down to Black Rise and learn something. We are the ones that test and use all these ships. Svipuls are a cancer to AF's. EAF's are in a good place, both t2 and t1 variants.
General Vachot
The Vendunari
End of Life
#56 - 2016-03-24 06:42:26 UTC
First not saying that AF's are super bad and we used to run them a lot too. I know all the fits quite well but its not the heavy tackler it should be.

The issue is they are a bit slow not that they are not tanky or dps enough - hence some of my comments on switching modes. I also don't disagree with some of the finer points raised around some minor tweaks between the various AF's. But T3D are not cancer. Cancer is not fun (just ask anyone who has had it or seen someone go through it). A Svipul or confessor on the other hand is heaps of fun.

Your arguments seem to be more based around how AF and T3D fit into faction warfare and low sec but they don't necessarily translate to null sec. I play in both and have no specific preference to pvp in either so I am neutral in that respect.

Fact remains my go to fun ship right now is one of the T3D not any AF and I don't encourage any of my peeps into AF's specifically over T3D anymore.

Why? Its not because the T3D is auto win - trust me if you suck hard enough you can lose in a svipul to a well flown arty thrasher.

Its because AF's struggle to fill a gap that my inty pilots, faction frigate pilots or EAF pilots don't fill. If AF's were a bit faster and could tackle T3D and hold them long enough for support to arrive I think they would come back hard.

Yes T3D is also great against T1 cruisers but not autowin - plenty of T1 sucker fits around to bait single T3D for a kill. I'll take on a T3D in a T1 cruiser any time 1v1 win or lose it will be a fun fight.

Where it does get a bit hard is T3D fleets 25 arty svipuls is nasty, but then again so is 25 arty sabre or arty thrasher or 25 gila's.

Just to re-iterate I don't think AF are bad they just need a twist.

Also Oreb - "come down to Black rise and learn something" - really that's lame. I have been playing and pvping since 2006 there is nothing you can teach me about sucking hard at this game than I already know just ask all my peeps about my fleet whelps....
Oreb Wing
Last Rites.
#57 - 2016-03-24 11:02:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Oreb Wing
It's sad to see you say you don't think there's anything wrong with T3D's, but constantly compare them to ships above its class --even a HAC no less! and that even a nub can be effective in one.

Also, the difference between null and low is having the ability to bubble. Meaning that someone actually needs to outsmart or outmaneuver one to catch one, which turns your comparison to Null on its head. Null is easy mode to skirmishing.

Try not to fall back on personal attacks and stick to the point.
Loradan Illstari
Illstari Industries
#58 - 2016-03-24 14:02:11 UTC
It's T3Ds that need changing, not AFs. T3Ds need to come down. They replaced AFs because they do the same thing 10x better, but that isn't a good thing. T3Ds are definitely overpowered, especially the Svipul and the Confessor.
William Rokov
Better go yolo
Yolo Brothers
#59 - 2016-03-24 15:25:50 UTC
When frigate got slower speed, than destroyer, its just the end. Everyone is fly faster than AF - t3d, commands and even dictors. Its just funny and sad. Just upgrade AF speed and agility and it will be again playable ships.
50% protection from ewar is nice idea too, but speed is more important. They are just too slow for its size.

No links, no scouts. True solo pvp pilot.
DrysonBennington
Eagle's Talon's
#60 - 2016-03-25 14:15:38 UTC
Maybe AF's and AC's could take on a new role and get a class specific buff when they go into Drifter Wormholes.