Intergalactic Summit

Where you see comic relief and provocative manners that you are probably proud of, I only see utter ignorance - how can someone be so uneducated ?

What are the Scriptures ? If you do not even know how to answer to that question, that will only prove my point.

People burning books for the simple reason that one of them might be unacceptable do not deserve any mercy.



Much like in all the ancients texts I have had the occasion to read in most of the cultures, to my knowledge.

Lyn Farel, first about the question about the picture of the woman that is drawn by Matari culture, I can say that some of the most powerful figures in our tales are women. For example the tale about the Valkyries that collect the best of those fallen in battle and bring them to the goddess Frigg, to her Fólkvangr. Goddess over life and death, weaver of fate. Warrior-girl and smart protector of home and family, of clan and tribe, superior to the man-warrior of rape and insanity, of madness and brutality. Protection and defence. This is what the Minmatar culture has to give to women.

What has the Empire to give? Slave pits and industrialized rapecamps. At least they keep the girls high on Vitoc to ease their suffering, yeah?


Interesting statement and well observed. The question is, where you draw the line.

The question is where stops art, where begins pornography? As with every art there is a step of compression, a step into abstraction of the whole issue. And with the step into abstraction you'll take shortcuts. If the shortcut is emphasizing the spiritual nature of sexuality or if it is lowering it down into profanity is a hard to link to scenes.

Well, you can say if it is well played it is art. Well you can say the best art is when it is not played but showed. You can argue that describing the scene with a lot of words is art. You can argue that letting away any words and show the bodies is art.

I think the line between art and pornography is indeed arbitrary. It is in the eye of the beholder. And while I can take any profane shilling shocker and easily begin to interpret is as if it were a piece of art, and would indeed get some aspect out of it that are of value, you can rip apart every piece of culture as if it was worthless on the other side as a critic. There is no thing like pornography, there is no profanity.

Both are aspects of ignorance of the beholder. And with ignorance they are aspects of the context the beholder is looking at them. It's prejudice, not fact.

I have seen an interesting experiment, while I was studying the Vherokior fiddle. One of the best Matari fiddlers of the Republic was standing at the entrance of a commuting center on Matar and played some of the most valuable ancient tunes on his very rare and ancient violin. People were ignoring him "just as an other street-musician beggar" and thousands were passing by without listening. In fact they didn't even seen him while he was standing right in front of them.

In a music hall they would have had to pay small fortunes to join his audience and listen to his performance. Given out for free in the context of a commuting center they were ignorant to his art.

I think the same happens with pornography. People have moral issues with watching naked bodies, people only see the context of profanity, where there is nothing like profanity. There is no thing in the world that is boring. There are just people that never have learned to watch with the right sense of mind. And see the world with the eye of an artist.

That's what I think. And when I start burning books I don't burn them because I have not looked into them, I do not understand them and am ignorant. I burn them because I understand them oh too well.

What they call pornography is innocent. It's clearly a form of art, however you may dislike it if you want, but that doesn't change the fact. I can't see it as profanity. I'm not able to observe it like that. It's showing truth.
Propaganda is not. It's a weapon and an assault. And where the one is showing people making love to each other is the other showing people how to hate each other. Propaganda is always lying. And it begins with the lie about gods, about religion, about ideologies, wanting to manipulate and control people. And that I will fight and burn.

The things that are real can never be profane in the sense of banal. That's the basic idea behind science. The word profanity means the absence of spirituality. But while there are no spirits in the world of matter all spirituality we can gain is over matter and knowledge of matter. All spirituality we can get is by observation and only by imagination if that imagination can be confirmed by observation, which means by experiment with matter. The only way to miss the spirituality of our world is to look away from the things that are and turn to an imaginative world we would prefer from our ideology our "how the world should be". A world of lies but of facts. But I prefer to live in a world that has more words for genitals than for killing each other.

Make porn, not scriptures!

Ms. Wildfire, quick question if you please. Do you hold to an epistemology of Empiricism? It appears that you do. I ask that I may better understand your approach to issues.

Sincere thanks,
Ston

Oh no. Don't drink and write Mikkel. And for getting off sexual frustration you are in the wrong sort of bulletin. It may frustrate you that after 20.000 years people still talk about issues. But I guess you made my point without even noticing. That boredom comes from ignorance.

Not from the fact that the world has nothing to give or that things are too shallow.

I expected better from a Gradient member. From fellow Minmatar. We are not like that. Ignorance is the only unforgivable crime - to close your eyes to the world. Especially if you are Minmatar. Maybe you're fighting the wrong cause, do you?

It is simple:

nude person in some form of historical scene, possibly posing with a historical weapon = Art

nude person in a contemporary scene, posing with everyday objects, such as a datapad = Erotica

nude person in an obvious sexual pose = pornography


And with that said, I refer to my previous post in this thread, some time ago:

Down with this sort of thing.

Mikkel, I don't exactly understand what you mean with the word pseudo-philosophical, especially what you mean with "pseudo", while of cause I know the words, the meaning of this combination is vague and I don't think I should guess. But maybe when you get sober again, you can ashame us all with some real philosophical contribution to this conversation, that would us pseudo-philosophers make flush in front of so much wisdom in one person.

But until now it seams the vapor of alcohol has set like fog over the brilliance of your speeches.

No-one said you are a traitor. I just said I hope you can do better, after you have overcome some of your flaws. Means that behind all this foggy something I am quite sure is a brilliant mind, that just is covered by frustration, drug influence and cynicism that you are not performing on the level on which I would like to see you and that would fit you better, I think.

You may disagree with me. You may close your eyes to the world. But if you do that it's just a cowardly form of suicide.

And -yes- you made a point. Since 20000 years people talk about things like the weather, like their families, what to do about their children, how to help a fellow comrade that is going down in public or things like that. And they all try to find out how the world is ticking, if there is a superior being, a universal maker and all that.

But that this conversations and disputes is going on for so long doesn't mean they are all pointless. If you think that you are just ignorant. And what I think about that I already said. I personally believe people talk about these issues for such a long time, because they are essential, which is quite the opposite position you take.

You can do better. I believe in that. Anyone can.

And I agree with that. But we are neither disputing those issues for those who have closed their ears, nor for those who are on our side of the argumentation. We dispute issues for those who want to understand.

And things may be said in so many different ways.Like poetry is saying the same thing in a new way. And this new way sometimes is just the way that someone understands, who was unable to understand before. This is what we try.


It is true that the perception of what is art and what is not art is arbitrary and is also part of the culture the beholder is coming from. But the dispute the issue of this opens the minds and make people understand. It is enlightening in best case. If we just permanently agree with everybody that we do not agree we will never understand anything.

And this is the path into war and destruction.

For example I had a dispute with one of my teachers about what is art or not. He said, that he was fed up with low quality performances and can't stand them anymore. Which he meant was, I think, that he was fed up with people that want the status of an artist, that are no artists in their heart, they just want to count as those, because it pleases their ego. But that was not what he said.

So I vehemently disagreed. I have seen pictures of young children that had no polished technique in it. But a lot of expression of feelings. Like the expressionists paint for example. People may not understand what they are doing, but for me such a picture has a lot more emotional value than one of those technical perfect pieces of graphical art, that are without any meaning at all - those used in commercials. Technique has nothing to do with art. It will come if you work hard, but it is more a thing that you can't avoid to learn over time. The important thing is, how I see it, the heart behind it.

And what we beholder have to learn is to distinguish between technique and content, depth. I personally reject propaganda, while I'm perfectly aware that every expression of a piece of art wants to propagate a message. But is this message coming from his heart or is it a lie? Is he doing it, because he is feeling it or is he just paid for it and feels nothing?

I support the point of view that you can see this when you look at a work. You see it if you look at a warrior, too.

But it is a difficult issue. I also said that you can see art everywhere when you look at the world with the eye of an artist. If you begin to understand the world. Though the impression you have.

And those important questions stay for 20000 years, because the world changes, we change and with this the meaning of art changes too. And we must talk about this to understand. To understand the other. To come together. That's why I'm fighting ignorance when I see it. At least I have to say when I see it. There is no progress in a world of universal con-sense. The only progress in the world comes through conflict. And art is maybe the best way to fight this conflict.

That's why we must talk about it. The alternative is bloodshed in consequence.
It is in-acceptable to agree to not agree. The world is conflict and every minutes of consense where a suppressed disagreement stays will result in a more powerful, more violent battle the next time. The rebellion was one of those events and the "reclaiming" is an other. After 1000 years of "consense" under the whip hundreds of worlds went into rebellion. We still have no idea how many lives that did cost and how much blood.


And this is the reason why I think any religion is a bad base of operation to come together. Any comings together of religious leaders in the world that end in "peace" end in an ignorant "we agree to disagree". The only way to come together can be the logical and moral base science had come up with hundreds of years. Base of understanding of the human nature, of the world and being together that are based on facts and not ideologies or religions.

And the door to do that is -I think- art. And culture as the communities way to express themselves. The task is not to find a common culture but to understand the alien one. To understand with the eye of an artist and scientist, with an open heart and mind.

Well, I take back this generous offer. Now that I've seen your full body, you're a bit too adipose for my taste. (Maybe see a nutritionist?) And when it comes to the discussion art—pornography: You only need to open your mouth, Kaleigh, and it is pornography. If I however would decide to open my legs and let the whole population of Heimatar in, it would be art.

Love (to the rest of you),
Odelya
Exalted Cherry Blossom

Ah here is a point where I feel misunderstood.

It is the same way "War is Peace" is a general misunderstanding like "Slavery is Freedom". Indeed to turn around the facts to express the opposite is a very artistic form of making a point, that needs explanation.

I just used a different form of "War is Peace" when I said that's inacceptable to agree to disagree and that we have to live in a permanent world of confrontation to keep peace. But the form of battle, the quality of confrontation that is meant with this is indeed not war and killing. It's talking about how we get to peace, it's a permanent ceasefire negotiation. This is the best peace we truly can get without the need to conquer the other side, win the battle and destroy their sort of life and culture to make it like ours. This poisonous sort of peace was between Amarr and Minmatar when they kept us in slavery. Both cultures agreed to disagree, we suffered. Finally it erupted in an epic battle that is still going on and cost tenthousands of lives every day if not more.

Because any static peace is just to agree to disagree and the conflict potential is adding up over time with that. And every static peace is ignoring the fact that the world is permanently changing, both sides are changing and the needs and abilities to accept certain compromises change more or less dramatically.

So this dichotomy is not to take literal. And any attempt to do so is futile and absurd. But like it is in any form of expression if you look at it with the mind of an artist, you can salvage truth from it. It does not make it right or wrong, but context always gives sense.

This is how I understand the Scriptures could be read. But then there is nothing sacral in the scriptures but in the way people approach it with their problems. Still the dichotomy is neither real nor true. It's like an enigma that leads to enlightening. But if you take Scriptures as-is it leads to madness. Like "War is Peace" to take literal. It must not taken literal nor static. It must be openly questioned and disputed with an open, skeptic mind. Then and only then it is leading to something and doesn't need to be burned. While the Amarrian culture is blocking indeed this way to approach their scriptures by forbidding any form of exegesis that is not sanctioned by their inquisitive high-priests as heresy the Scriptures remain useless, futile and destructive. The cultural disaster of Amarr is that they forced a peace on their religion instead letting it live in a constant change through interpretation. The only result this permanent peace can have is either the destruction of their religious culture or their oppressing Empire.

And we Minmatar just try to keep them at distance on gunpoint and reject any attempt to "outsource" their internal struggle on the outside world by projection.

As long as their own religion is dead and enslaved by their Empire it is best for the Amarr when we burn their holy scriptures until they understand our form of interpretation of them and change their state of mind, to negotiate a compromise we Minmatar can accept. A compromise without the need to threaten and enslave my kin.


That indeed would be an interesting way to see pornography.

By the state of mind in which it is produced. Still hard to look into minds to see the state. I doubt that there is any approach to the construct of "pornography" that is not putting cultural, moral or state force on the freedom of those who legally want to exhibit their bodies and try to sell some sort of image of them to the public.

Even if Kaleighs mouth would be producing things we don't like to hear or imagine. She may do so if she finds someone who buys it.

If this is becoming a cultural experiment I offer free transportation opportunities by my fleet for willing participants from the Matari population to the set of this event, inside Minmatar space. And I think we can start with selling trousers and panties of Odelya for funding the event.
She won't need them anymore.

How many clones do you have ready for action?

Ah on the other hand sex with a mindless clone shouldn't be so much fun.