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And is someone going to move these items to that Citadel somewhere and fill his buy order without there being something in it for them?

A bulk trader that seeds new markets?

Maybe.

Do you do bulk manufacturing? If I see a buy order in a station at a good price and I can sell a large portion or all of my stock there...yeah.

No.

Please read a little more carefully. You appear willing to sacrifice every minority that doesn't play in a manner you find fitting while I am not. "You don't have to play my way, but you do have to play EVE (my way)." It doesn't have to be all four types; it just has to be Caldari-Gallente or one of the other three similar combinations. To make things worse, the cheapest fuel block will have the most demand when all four can be used interchangeably. Producing fuel blocks will become a competition of finding the cheapest raw materials which is bound to require importing from other regions and switching between all four fuel blocks. With 2 ore rigs and 2 ice rigs, a medium citadel would not be able to specialized in reprocessing which would already be a niche purpose. Right now a small POS is more than enough to reprocess everything and produce fuel blocks. The changes might force people to have a incomplete medium reprocessing citadels and a medium production citadel (I imagine there will be rigs for production eventually) just to reach the same capacity. The investment needed could possibly go from ~200M to ~2B. How punishing do you want these changes to be against small groups or individual players that happen to be contributing members of EVE?

How have I misunderstood? I have been saying that this game requires adapting to other players, but you are the one that mentioned "completely isolated".

Why should such a niche use require large citadel? There should be plenty of other rigs people will want to use, and if they want to specialize in more than one area they should have to move to a large.

Take your own advice. You are making wild accusations based nowhere close to anything I've said.

And both high end and low end ore. Basically yes, if you decide to cripple yourself you will be negatively impacted by this change. Me being OK with that doesn't force people's playstyle it simply allows them to have the consequences of being terrible at basic game mechanics. You want to change those mechanics to cater for the lowest skilled players not realising that all that does is give an even bigger advantage to people who actually know what they are doing by allowing them to pay next to no fees to achieve a high efficiency with nearly no risk.

And anyone with two braincells together won;t be importing it all as ice, because they will do a quick calculation and realise that they are chopping off a good few percent by doing so.

It's not punishing to small groups, it's punishing to dumb players. A smart player in a small group will realise that the citadel also provides them with a massive amount of extra asset protection, a higher refine rate plus the ability to sell their services to other small players who aren't able to get a citadel to reduce the running costs.

Because that;s who you keep supporting. Someone that isn't isolated will work with other players to realise the benefits of a citadel while you're still treating it like it would be a guy and his POS.

It's not a niche use, it'll probably be the main damn use for a citadel.

To be quite honest mate it just sounds like you're pushing for mediums to be enough to pretty much make a large redundant and other than "but stupid people want to do everything there" you've not really given any good reasons for why a medium should be capable of being a complete refining hub. The only way it would work is if it had a lower refine rate than a large which I guarantee you would be a lot more crippling to those small groups you claim to care so much about. For the vast majority of those small groups, the medium having limited scope but the same yield will be fine, and the minority will have to adapt or get out.

And I'm really done arguing with you about it. If you can come up with a coherent argument let me know, otherwise you can consider the conversation closed and I'll write off your posts as tears.

Sometimes, Teckos, I wonder if you ignore the context of the posts because it suits you, or if you're just plain lazy.

Ship doctrines and fittings are frankly immaterial to what I was talking about, and the only way I can presume you thought fit to include them was if you didn't care at all about reading my posts. I'm not talking about what happens in space, I'm talking about the nature of space itself.

It's the reason why you can't anchor bubbles in empire space, why Concord exists, why you can only build Scaps in Sov. It's the fundamental concepts of Eve design. That's what I'm talking about. If CCP wishes to make all areas of space the same, they can. It might be the only move which literally everyone hates, but they could do it.

If it "makes the game better" what would you give up? Everything you find enjoyable? Let's remove Null-sec: WH brawls are much higher skill and so much cooler to watch.

There are things players enjoy *to do with the area of space they live in*. It's not making their game better if we remove their space.

@Lucas I have been more than civil with you only to have you make insulting and belligerent remarks. There is only one thing we agree on; this conversation is over.

Bull, you've repeatedly claimed I've said things I haven't. I've not insulted you once. I've simply pointed out how making a medium citadel do everything is a bad idea and you've gone off the rails about how I must be demanding everyone plays in the same way. People can play however they want they just can't expect CCP to make up for it when they make bad choices or refuse to adapt to change.

And sometimes I wonder if you continue to ignore the larger context because it suits you. When confronted with the fact that people's play styles have been affected by Dev intervention in the game you just go, "Yah, but that isn't what I'm talking about this very second." Again, you come across as intellectually dishonest with all this hand waving away of things. You basically insulate yourself from all other change that have affected players by saying, "Oh, but that doesn't pertain to this case."

No you are absolutely not talking about the fundamental nature of Eve design. You are talking about a much more limited aspect of the game, so don't hand me this nonsense about fundamental Eve design. Here let me quote you.



That is just one aspect of the game.

And those players are here complaining because they see their way of playing as changing and they are assuming for the worse. I pointed out where such changes have happened quite a bit. I bring them up and you hand wave them away. Each and every time, even when the ****ing apply.

I already brought up PI vs. NPC sell orders. I had a number of alts living in NPC space at the time. It was something that negatively affected my game. Then they shifted over to POCOs...again, negatively affecting my game. And not just me, but lots of people. I mean look at this ****. And more. And more stupid. Oh noes, the economy!!!Sgt Ocker is that you?Oh dear.

And people adapted and the economy survived.

And look, the break downs were similar to now (NS vs. HS). Many of the arguments were similar to now. I'm sorry, it is the same reaction we have seen before.

And all areas of space are not going to be the same. Just as in NS and HS where POCOs and POS can be shot, same thing with citadels. It has always been the case that when a player puts something down in space it can be shot. HS though you'll first need to war dec the corp/alliance of the citadel. And they just cannot shoot it willy nilly whenever they want. Only during windows of vulnerability. And to be honest I always felt the ability to tear down a POS before a war starts was unfortunate. Removed yet another potential conflict driver and reduced risk. Also, the costs of asset recovery will be faster and cheaper in HS. And you can get more traffic in HS. In NS it maybe hard to turn a profit with a citadel. In HS if it works out your citadel could make you some decent ISK.

And nobody is removing their space.

• Concord will still be there.
• Missions will still be there.
• NPC stations will still be there, although more expensive.

It will change, but as I have noted, that has happened before.

So is the buyer offering more than NPC hub prices or is he matching the NPC hub price?

What were your criteria for selecting the station?