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Well the first time I saw the new Firetail, I immediately thought of it as the dream Rifter.
People had been fitting TDs or MSEs on Rifters for ages, then we get this Firetail which is like... exactly what we wanted

I don't want to start getting into how I feel about the other faction ships, but the reason I suggested a flat damage boost is for a few reasons;

For one, it allows current popular fits to gain some damage without changing a thing. The FT doesnt really have tons of damage or range, so an increase doesnt harm much.

Secondly, it opens up the possibility of new fits that were once deemed too weak to be worthwhile.

Lastly, when increasing the damage bonus of a ship it allows the player to focus on other things aside from damage.

For example; You could fit small guns, achieve the same damage, and as a result fit a bigger tank.

Of course I'm not saying thats the best solution and would make the Firetail worth flying (aside from looking awesome), but that's what I've got to say since you put me on the spot

It could probably use a bit more fitting as well

whoa whoa whoa
i think that honour goes to the jaguar

No. Simple enough for you?

Here, let me point you to the blog in question and for convenience quote the relevant text:

So you see, not just 'better versions of T1".
For pirate frigs the quote is:


If you had any idea of tight the balance is on the small scale, you would run screaming for the hills at the prospect of re-balancing everything from scratch due to wanting AF's to be a tad more useful in bubble-land .. just sayin'

You could say the same thing about the Comet, Slicer, & Hookbill.
The Comet is similar to the Ishkur, the Slicer is similar to the Retribution, and the Hookbill is similar to the Hawk.

They (Navy) aren't comparable to the AFs, as it's been said. They are merely *better* T1.
You would fly a Navy frigate for the same reasons (and more) that you would fly any other T1 frigates.

Personally, I fly faction frigates to kill Interceptors and other faction (including Pirate) frigates in 00.
They're fast enough to catch tackle (unlike AFs), and they're strong enough to survive 00 (unlike plain T1)

@Hiranda
Navy frigates (firetail aside) are exactly what I said.
They are similar to, but perform at a lesser degree than, T2.
They can (in fact) sport a decent tank, but most people tend to fit them out for ganking or kiting instead.
The Firetail is the only weak Navy frigates and it should be fixed. This is needed no matter what, AF boost or not.

The Pirate frigates are also exactly what I said.
They are supposed to be on par or possibly exceed capabilities of T2 ships.
CCP doesn't say what kind of T2 ships though, so that can really mean anything, even Interceptors.
I also said (several times over the course of this thread) that a couple of the Pirate frigs need a boost.
This is needed no matter what, AF boost or not.

Please try to keep up. I even posted those exact quotes AND linked that blog already.

Oh right. You said the Retribution will be the second best AF with these changes. My bad.

You also said that the Retribution was fine before and that is has no weakness in close range

@ Dark

this discussion is about AFs not Firetails. I admit that changes in ballance will touch Firetail as well but your postс are being way Firetail heavy

@Cosmic
Unless your target lands on you in tackle range, that extra armor really doesnt help as much as you're making it out to.

The Enyo is flys like a brick
The Enyo turns like a brick
The Enyo does not tank like a brick

When you are looking to take on another AF, you dont simply glide into web range.
You fling your ship at him, and then more often than not, go careening past your target so you can claw back.
You have the shortest damage projection when fit with blasters, and by the time you actually get in range, that extra little 200 base armor is loong gone.

I don't know how many times it needs to be said to knock it into you, but this is NOT about a T1 soloing a T2 of it's class. Why do you keep bringing up such examples, it BAFFLES me.

T1 Frigs not on the map? What is this? Are you suggesting to completely ignore a class of ships just because their t2 variants do their job, but better? Are you listening to yourself? T1 Cruisers might as well excuse themselves from the map too, because clearly vagabonds outdo stabbers right? They are a class of ship that still deserve a role and a place in a fleet.
T1 Cruisers CAN take down T2 HACs if said pilots utilize superior numbers or tactics for it, they still stand a chance. But this is not all about T1's fighting T2's. It's simply that AF's are now too good, and they don't deserve to be that good. What would happen if we gave Vagabonds an extra low, more grid or CPU, and another bonus?

What really gets to me is why you believe I am asking to curb AF's. Well it's probably because I don't believe AF's are underpowered. What is it about AF's you're not satisfied with? that they can't take on cruisers toe to toe? Yet you argue that they won't with the proposed changes, so what is it? Why do they need a buff when they will be able to achieve no more than they are already achieving (and should be achieving) now?

You stated earlier that a T2 frig should be (roughly) matched to a T1 Cruiser because T2 HAC's are (roughly) matched to a battlecruiser. Well firstly I don't know why you compare HAC's to BC, as they ARE roughly matched, but is not what I consider a class up, which would be the T1 battleship, which HACS do not stand a chance against. Likewise I do not believe T2 Assault frigs should be able to compete with T1 cruisers. Infact I believe they already do a very good job of that now.

Then you bring up the issue of ISK sinks, which I don't believe even plays any part in these changes. No more isk is going into NPC hands by making players charge each other more for the high demands of AF's. These ships are already pricy enough as they are, if there was any rebalancing that I would consider a step in the right direction, it is to reduce the costs of producing them, and drive their prices down.

It should be of note that often, it's not about how much we can afford, it's about how many pilots we can field, and the price difference is not going to be the determining factor on the decision to field a T1 or a T2. We'll only be seeing Assault ships because T1, navy, and pirate frigates will no longer perform NEARLY as well as an assault ship.

And I do believe I said I did try them on SISI, and they whirl spectacularly.

Soo.. hands up who's actually tried them out on SISI? Jus' so we know?

o/

Pretty much every AS flies and turns like a brick and navigation into point blank range instead of overshooting is up to the players skills which you have to learn, does not matter which weapon system you use. It is not only about the numbers, it is the whole package of the ship that it offers. the wolf, while having his advantages over the enyo and vice versa , has a similar perfromance as the enyo but has no mid slot for a web and to be able to carry a web is golden.