Upcoming Feature and Change Feedback Center

That would only affect vets mains. Utility alts would be lower SP. The idea isn't to cripple older players, it's to give a token amount of isk for swapping around clones. 900k is basically free, and if a newbie is struggling to get that together I'd have to ask where they got the cash for the implants they are so desperate to protect and what ship they are going to go flying dangerously, since pretty much everything would fall under the the rule "don't fly what you can't afford to lose" if you can't even afford 900k.

I think that's a needlessly hostile interpretation.

Right now, you can get all the functionality of a large Citadel in a medium POS: 7 bil to ~500mil. A medium PoS is much more of a small-corp sized thing, whereas a Medium citadel (the proposed replacement) is more of a small outpost. Look at it more as "players wanting continued complete functionality suitable for their corp".

Anyway, CCP, can we get a change in language: you're saying 'compete' but you're artificially crippling NPC stations. Could you change 'compete' to 'overtake' or 'displace'? It'd be good to clarify your intentions.

Except it's not. Even the starter career missions give more than that. And the point is that if they are already at a stage where they have a clone, have implants they need to protect and are going to perform an activity that they know in advance is dangerous enough that they need to swap clones, they are obviously not that new.

Except a citadel gives them more than a POS gives them, aside from anything else it gives you ultimate protection of contained assets which is a massive bonus. The cost of that is reduced functionality at the smaller end. If I were being needlessly hostile I'd say I think it's complete bull that this NPC alt is running a corp which collects all types of or and all types of ice then ships it uncompressed to a single location in highsec for compression and refining.

No, I mean for starters a large is not particularly expensive for a supposed industrial corp, and what I'm saying is that people who are less wealthy can't afford all of the benefits of wealthier players, that's just a basic fact. You don't sit around balling your eyes out because you do level 2 missions and can't afford a titan. That doesn't mean they have no place in the game or can't achieve anything He wants all the benefits of having a large citadel including better refining for all ore without having to pay out for one.

Consider that all he really needs to do is pick one of those sets of ores then take a maximum of a 5% reduction in yield by refining them in an NPC station instead.

@Lucas:

"Here, you wanted this spade, but we've given you a fork instead. With the fork, you can winnow out stones and weeds, and it's very useful for breaking the earth."

"But I didn't want a fork, I need to shift the earth, not break it down. It's also 10 times as expensive! No, I don't want it!"

"But with this fork you can do all these other wonderful things...."

"Well I don't want to do them."

(And so on and so forth)

His desire is to refine all Ice and all Minerals. His desire isn't to have markets and all those other things (based on his immediate turn to the idea of two mediums, not a large). This is pretty simple, I think.

Edit: and there are cases where identifying yourself isn't the best idea.

And then he said it better himself below.

Not a lot. And I'm sure if we ask newbies they won't want to pay, hell I'd rather not pay for anything ever too. But that's not the real question is it, the question is what's reasonable to pay for protecting the implants in people heads. 900k is not unreasonable. Also, if you think that it's going to be a problem, then start up a citadel and turn the fee off, then they can do it for free. To be honest though I'm still questioning how new a newbie really is if they've got a head full of implants to protect.

No part of that argument was a strawman, and amusingly this is. Get comprehension bro. I didn't even remotely claim that your post was suggesting it's insurmountable.

Well that's just too bad since that's obviously not how it works. They can't go "hey I'd like to give it a shot at flying a carrier... WHAT!?!?! I HAVE TO PAY!?!?!?" then expect to be taken seriously. Paying to play the game gives you access to the platform, it doesn't grant you access you to any and all game mechanics without having to work at them.

Oh yeah, I totally get what he wants, I just disagree that he should just be handed it simply because he wants it. It's pretty obvious they have set up the rigs the way they have specifically to avoid people being able to use a medium as a complete refinery hub.

More about what exactly? All he's claiming is that newbies won't want to pay 900k for protecting the implants they can supposedly afford while they can't afford their 900k.

And so if game mechanics change you are entitled to that forevermore?

Because a substantial amount of the time NPC alts talk out of their backside, and hiding behind an alt is pretty much the best way to announce to the world that you're not confident in or committed to what you are saying.

Why should you? Because that's the game. There are challenges and you overcome them. You have multiple options, you can refine just 3 groups and do the rest in a station losing 5% on that type, or you can work with others, or you can get a large citadel or you can mine more of the 3 groups you select and none of the last. You say you'd never recoup your outlay, well that only suggests you really don't need this as much as you claim.

So that would be two types of ice. Sounds to me though like it's shockingly inefficient. Instead of jumping around all over the place trying to get all types of ice and ore you could just focus mine on a couple of systems and spend less time traveling.

To be clear though, is your mining corp just you?

Well that's great, so if you're playing for fun and relaxation why are you freaking out at the prospect of losing 2% of your current refinery yield for just one group of ore?

¯\_(ツ)_/¯ I feel like I'm arguing with my baby sister when she's convinced she's right, and that repeating the same things over and over and over again is a 'good' point.

I never said anything about protecting implants, yet you keep hammering that nonsense. And yet, accuse me of using a straw man argument.

I don't think you know what you are talking about, outside of your own personal experience, and while that makes your opinion on the proposed changes as valid as anyone else's, it doesn't mean you can comment on people with points outside of your experience with any sort of expertise.

In essence, that's the only thing I've been trying to say on this thread for the past week or so. Changes are coming. And that's both good and bad. I'm limiting myself to comment on the area I know well enough to dare comment on : newbie management.

I do that day in and day out. Other people from Karmafleet, Pandemic Horde, Redemption Road, and others I'm sorry not to remember from the top of my head, have said the same thing : it's already hard to convince people to take risks, when you give them the ships and they only loose 100k ISK for the creation of a new, blank, clone for that purpose. But once they have done it a few times, they are willing to pay for anything, including shiny losses.

You make it harder for us to cross that initial bridge, you have less people trying newbro-oriented roams. How many? I don't know. But definitely less. That means more people will stay in the relative risk free environment they chose for themselves because they don't know pvp is fun. Not because they are cheap or because they suck at it. Just because that initial psychological hurdle was never crossed. Those are facts. You will definitely not have more newbros in those roams that what's currently happening.

Does it matter on the scale of the game? I think it does, you think it doesn't. I'm eagerly awaiting the participation stats from people who do the same thing I do once this tax is passed. Right now we manage to have fleets roughly a hundred strong, with 25% of the participants who have never done any consensual pvp. I'm willing to bet those 25% will become 5%.

Again, does it matter? Maybe not to you. It does to me and I think it's bad for the game as a whole, as a result.

I also have opinions of the rest of the proposed changes, but if you look at my first post, I don't pretend to be an expert, I don't make a living out of it, and therefore will not comment.

Sales tax is controlled by NPCs and goes to NPCs, Broker's fee goes to players and is controlled by players.

If players raise a broker's fee to 100% (which is possible?) then people won't *list* orders on the market, but they could but stuff *off* the market.

You realise you only feel that way because you are convinced you are right though... From my point of view it's the same, you're salty over the concept of paying 900k isk to jump clones.

Then why do they need to jump to a new clone? Bear in mind the original post I responded to before you jumped on the bandwagon was complaining about how a newbie would have 32m of implants to protect thus needed to jump. If they have no implants they don't need to worry about it.

They don't even need to lose that though. Since their clone is already empty (as indicated by you claiming you're not talking about implants) then they don't need a new clone at all, thus the cost of the empty clone is 0, nothing, zero, zilch.

People who have never done consensual pvp aren't all newbros, and the newbros won't need new clones, right? So all it might affect is non-newbie players who are opting to not spend pocket change.

I don't pretend to be an expert, I just don't agree that 900k is a crippling amount for getting newbros into fleets. I mean like I say, you could simply give them a place to jump clone for free, in addition, let's take your 25 newbies per fleet. Let's pretend they are always new newbies in each fleet, they always need to jump to a blank clone and that you do 2 fleets a week without fail. If you were to pay their clone cost you would pay 2.3b per year. If that's too much for you then maybe you should look at how committed you are to helping newbies.