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What happened with war decs?
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Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#101 - 2016-03-14 18:23:08 UTC
tiberiusric wrote:
to be honest all major war deccers camp either hubs or main routes. So i think the watch list issue is a bit mute. We managed for years without them.

Clearly the monetry value hasnt made a difference at all.
The main thing you could do is make all war decs 500mill that would make people really think about deccing random people for nothing. Wars for me should be about 'really' declaring war on someone for a reason not just for another target.


The war dec is really silly tbh, CCP just create something to circumvent the high sec mechanic of stopping people getting shot.

As i said i think war deccing is fine, but just to have lots of easy targets in highsec is not. Sure you will have the cash cows that can spend billions on targets but you cant stop that, unless you just remove war deccing altogether. Hmm now theres a thought







And 1 year later, when 2 insetad of 6 corp/alliance are elft because they banded together to absorb the dec cost increase, we crank it to 1bill/war?

Another year later, 2bill/war for the last mega alliance doing it?
FloppieTheBanjoClown
Arcana Imperii Ltd.
#102 - 2016-03-14 18:58:46 UTC
Vimsy Vortis wrote:
Useful allies do exist and people do ally into wars for free. Please check your ignorance.

Yeah. Your help in that matter was much appreciated.

Founding member of the Belligerent Undesirables movement.
Vic Jefferson
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
#103 - 2016-03-14 19:29:37 UTC
Tora Bushido wrote:
It's simple. We changed our ways about 6 months ago, from trade hub huggers with many wars, to more dedicated hunters, with half the wars, who use watch lists to focus on targets. CCP ****** up the WL, introduced it without talking to the players who know. Not talking about the two CSM members here, who have been crying for this change for years now or the nulsec CSM members, who are clueless how highsec works.

So no watch list = no more targeted wars = back to mass war deccing. Sad, but true. Evil



At least you broke it down in an easy way so people can understand the why.

Doesn't change that the wardec mechanic is utter trash, where the wardeccers have absolutely no skin in the game.

Vote Vic Jefferson for CSM X.....XI.....XII?
Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
#104 - 2016-03-14 19:33:56 UTC
Black Pedro wrote:
Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:
Whatever the case, this issue must be addressed somehow.

Consider the negative psychological effect on new players. Or ask yourself, if you were starting out in a game and suddenly more experienced players declare war on you solely for the purpose of catching you at a gate, and you look them up and see they are doing it to anything that moved for the reason of killing targets alone, what impression would you have of the game at that point?

Probably not a good one. Certainly not that kind that keeps you around.
Except CCP says this isn't true. They told us at fanfest last year that new players that lose a ship in a war are more likely to stay with the game than those where nothing interesting happens during those first weeks in the game.

Eve has been a harsh, unforgiving place for well over a decade now. Why do you think only now, something has to be done and non-consensual PvP thrown out the window? That is not the game CCP designed nor is currently developing. If new players decide they don't like the cutthroat sandbox nature of Eve, then perhaps it is for the best that they move on. But all the hard data says that it is this competition and social interactions that keep players in the game the longest.

This is all quite off-topic though as the threads of this nature tend to drift. But perhaps these words from CCP about this game have some relevance on the topic at hand:

New Pilot FAQ wrote:
[O]nce you enter New Eden you must consider every action you take as a form of PvP since this is the core game concept. In the asteroid field you’re competing with other pilots to obtain resources; you may also have to defend against ore thieves. On the market you battle for control of the economy in certain areas; for the supply and demand of your products versus other aspiring tycoons. On the battlefield you may fight for glory, for money, or for the right to rule whole areas of space. As always in EVE, it’s your choice.


There is no asterisk anywhere in there saying "except in high security space". Eve online is dark, harsh game whose central pillar features non-consensual PvP. That means that no matter what you do, new players are going to lose stuff against their will at some point - that is the "non" part in non-consensual.

Wardecs can be changed, or even removed completely and replaced with some other mechanic to allow structure fighting in highsec, but at some point a new player is going to get stomped by another player and lose some stuff against their will because this is the central point of the game. Eve is a PvP sandbox where players jostle for wealth and power, often violently, and unlike traditional MMO where everyone is the hero, only one groups usually wins a given contest. That type of game is not for everyone, and wardecs are just another facet of that game play.

Wardecs can use some love; corporations more so. But ultimately, they are not going to be removed as part of some accommodation to the "think of the new player" sentiment common in veterans that CCP itself says they have no evidence of. If anything, wars need to be made more engaging and new players exposed to them sooner to increase the chances they are drawn into the game.

Far too many potential Eve players have been bored out of this game by good-meaning veterans who tell them to mine or run missions for 6 months before trying anything interesting. Wars are one of the most accessible ways allow these new players stuck on the PvE rails to nowhere to experience the wider game before they burn out or rightfully conclude (based on the decade old PvE content) that Eve is a snoozefest and unsub.




That still does not address my point. It has less to do with the game then you think. Who wants to play with "the kind of person" that has nothing better to do then blanket dec and camp gates all day? Yes yes they can do that, but just because you can...

It's like the mutual combat in my state. If someone wants to fight you, and you say "come at me bro" you can legally fight right there in the street.

Now of some 90 pound woman on a dose of empowerment wants to fight, what's going to be going through the minds of people coming just around the corner and don't know the whole story when I'm kicking her ass? (and I would accept the challenge because equality).

Thank you for taking the time to explain it to me. But I have been around long enough and heard much over the years. People want to play a game, not pay to babysit. That post you made, the noobs won't see it. They don't know the subject. I understand what you are saying and agree to it, but perception is 9/10 of the reality. Blanket mass decs are simply going to make NPC corps the mainstay.

But in the end, it's not that different from issues seen in other game where there are hordes of people with "nothing better to do".

Bring back DEEEEP Space!
Lulu Lunette
Savage Moon Society
#105 - 2016-03-14 20:22:33 UTC
Highsec Roll

@lunettelulu7
Somethingski
Bunnyhop and Bears
#106 - 2016-03-14 20:24:08 UTC
How about a limit on active wars like 10 make it more dynamic instead of the default any group with 100+ members. You would have to pick a few favorites to gank and swap from time to time.
Vic Jefferson
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
#107 - 2016-03-14 20:43:47 UTC
The thing with war-dec types is that they will preach the heck out of non-consensual pvp being the backbone of the game, a founding cornerstone, or the axiom of of its being, but implicit to the way they play, they obviously avoid having it ever done to them by hiding behind mechanics, and really aren't okay with it at its core - risk is for other people.

Practice what you preach. The wardec mechanic needs to force some risk or commitment on part of the aggressor.

Vote Vic Jefferson for CSM X.....XI.....XII?
Memphis Baas
#108 - 2016-03-14 20:45:17 UTC
Somethingski wrote:
How about a limit on active wars like 10 make it more dynamic instead of the default any group with 100+ members. You would have to pick a few favorites to gank and swap from time to time.


The current issue is because of CCP's change to remove the online notifications. We suggested changes to the agents that would still let people figure out who's online, but they didn't go for them.

So what you're seeing is a Burn Jita reaction from the wardec crowd, which includes some large alliances and clearly involves many players. They clearly want their play style (being able to find war targets available for killing) to not be made extinct, and are rather angry at the moment.

So, there's no point in trying to reason with a crowd that's in Burn Jita mode; their fight is with CCP, don't get in the middle of that fight. Let CCP sort it the hell out; it was their change to begin with. Suggestions were made, CSM warned them, let them figure it out.
Cara Forelli
State War Academy
Caldari State
#109 - 2016-03-14 20:46:12 UTC
Vic Jefferson wrote:
The thing with war-dec types is that they will preach the heck out of non-consensual pvp being the backbone of the game, a founding cornerstone, or the axiom of of its being, but implicit to the way they play, they obviously avoid having it ever done to them by hiding behind mechanics, and really aren't okay with it at its core - risk is for other people.

Practice what you preach. The wardec mechanic needs to force some risk or commitment on part of the aggressor.

If you think this doesn't apply to every pvp group in the game then you are blind. No one wants to lose.

Want to talk? Join my channel in game: House Forelli

Titan's Lament
Vic Jefferson
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
#110 - 2016-03-14 20:49:46 UTC
Cara Forelli wrote:
Vic Jefferson wrote:
The thing with war-dec types is that they will preach the heck out of non-consensual pvp being the backbone of the game, a founding cornerstone, or the axiom of of its being, but implicit to the way they play, they obviously avoid having it ever done to them by hiding behind mechanics, and really aren't okay with it at its core - risk is for other people.

Practice what you preach. The wardec mechanic needs to force some risk or commitment on part of the aggressor.

If you think this doesn't apply to every pvp group in the game then you are blind. No one wants to lose.


Speak for yourself.

Losing is not playing the game, and playing the game means taking risks.

Vote Vic Jefferson for CSM X.....XI.....XII?
Ima Wreckyou
The Conference Elite
The Conference
#111 - 2016-03-14 21:08:51 UTC
Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:
Whatever the case, this issue must be addressed somehow.

Consider the negative psychological effect on new players. Or ask yourself, if you were starting out in a game and suddenly more experienced players declare war on you solely for the purpose of catching you at a gate, and you look them up and see they are doing it to anything that moved for the reason of killing targets alone, what impression would you have of the game at that point?

Probably not a good one. Certainly not that kind that keeps you around.

Actually that happened to me and it was the first time the game became really interesting. People don't join EvE because it is such a great mining simulator. Somehow people like you always forget that this is a game about spaceship combat.

Evil RatKid
Neuntausend
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#112 - 2016-03-14 21:14:14 UTC
Well, chicken-**** playstyle is the most successful, and it gets even worse with every change they make, not only in Highsec. There simply is no incentive to go out and hunt and to take risks, because sitting next to a station and waiting is ten times more effective and much less tedious.

For example, a War Dec corp that actively hunts (and I used to be in one for quite some time a few years back when wars were cheap and Hubcamping far less popular than it is today), you risk running into a gate camp, or an opponent you cannot beat in a situation where you cannot just dock up. If the opponent has the balls to try it, at least. The thing is, nowadays, the small-corp hunting playstyle has been nerfed into the ground. Wars cost much more than they used to, and with the watchlist gone, hunting has become tedious and borderline impossible. You basically need to wardec 100 corps if you ever want to run into a target, and if you do that anyway, you can as well camp jita all day, because out of those 100 corps, someone is bound to show up there.

If you want to avoid chickenshit tactics and get people to commit to their cause, you need to make taking risks easier and more effective than sitting in a tradehub but CCP keep doing the exact opposite of that.

Back then, I saw a target log in, I went and localized the guy, traveled a couple of jumps in a Megathron, found him in a drake a few kilometers off the station, attacked him and found I had run into a login trap. A Talos and an Abaddon turned up and all of a sudden it was a 1 vs. 3 with me being way off the station. I still pulverized them, because they didn't know what they were doing, but this could have gone really badly otherwise. Nowadays, I a) cannot afford running wars just with merely a handful of people without having to grind and b) I wouldn't know if my targets are online or not. So, of course, if I still wanted to fight wars in Highsec, my only viable option would be to join Marmite and camp Jita all day, because a) it's much easier to pay the fees with 200 people than just 5 and b) since I don't know who's online and who's not, I can basically only wait for them to come to me instead of hunting. And when all my fights happen on the undock of a station with a massive docking range anyway, why wouldn't I redock once things start going south? Taking risks doesn't mean to be suicidal. Chicken **** camping is the only viable option they left us with. You really shouldn't be surprised when people do it.
Cara Forelli
State War Academy
Caldari State
#113 - 2016-03-14 21:24:58 UTC
Vic Jefferson wrote:
Cara Forelli wrote:
Vic Jefferson wrote:
The thing with war-dec types is that they will preach the heck out of non-consensual pvp being the backbone of the game, a founding cornerstone, or the axiom of of its being, but implicit to the way they play, they obviously avoid having it ever done to them by hiding behind mechanics, and really aren't okay with it at its core - risk is for other people.

Practice what you preach. The wardec mechanic needs to force some risk or commitment on part of the aggressor.

If you think this doesn't apply to every pvp group in the game then you are blind. No one wants to lose.


Speak for yourself.

Losing is not playing the game, and playing the game means taking risks.

I do. I'm hardly risk adverse. I'm also not stupid enough to think war deccers are the only groups that like to tip things in their favor.

Want to talk? Join my channel in game: House Forelli

Titan's Lament
Neuntausend
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#114 - 2016-03-14 21:31:39 UTC
Cara Forelli wrote:
I do. I'm hardly risk adverse. I'm also not stupid enough to think war deccers are the only groups that like to tip things in their favor.


I know we in the Imperium like to play it safe whenever playing it safe is the way to success. And it is way more often than it isn't, and that doesn't have anything to do with Highsec wars. It's the same everywhere in the game. Why take risks if taking risks is tedious and doesn't get you anywhere?

CCPlease make taking risks worthwhile again!
Jeven HouseBenyo
Vanity Thy Name Is
#115 - 2016-03-14 21:43:04 UTC
Honestly, if I do decide to take one of my toons out to null and it's dodge highsec and lowsec wardeccs the entire flight since the usual targets aren't even known to be online or off, so boredom kicks in and it's pew for pew's sake...

One, I'll go under an NPC corp to tone some of that down.

Two, I won't plan to bring anything worthwhile to brag about to anyone's killmail. when I lose it

Three, yes I do want to get better at PvP, but not by having it forcefed into my face. Whatever balance there might've been, that's certainly been lost. This change to the watchlist function shows where CCP wants their sandbox to go. And that's fine, it's their toy to bend, fold, warp and break to their heart's content. 23.5/7 PvP might be for some. That's not on my list of great things to do while logged in.

Yes, you can drag a horse by their harness to the water trough. But you'll have a difficult time forcing them to drink the Kool-Aid.

Considering the overall tone deafness coming down the pipe over the last year or so in mini-expansions/releases from CCP, hope there will be enough targets to gank once the more 'casual' customers vote with their wallets, and wander elsewhere. At one time Eve Online was the only seriously viable space based MMO out there. That's not the rule now. So before they make some of these decisions after ignoring the feedback asked for, hey. Their game. My cash. I'll throw those entertainment dollars elsewhere if the blatant blowoff continues.

What ARE the active account numbers (at least so many hours logged in during a week) currently, compared to the last 2-4 years? Morbid curiosity has sunk it's claws into me, are there as many missing overall, as were once on my watch list for out of corp chitter chatter? The watchlist was having a lot more notifications from the grudge set than friends in the last 6 months or so...

What are the player numbers (overall health) of this 'harsh cruel space' when that PoV is taken out of the game, and into the company response to the customer?

>Jeven

Minny boat flyer, unofficial squeaky wheel.

'Game Ethics and Morality Monitor' I remember promises.

Snark at 11-24/7/365.25. Overshare? Yup.

Yes it's my fault. And if you don't staap it I'll do it again. ;-P

No you can't has my stuffs OR my SPs.
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#116 - 2016-03-14 21:44:19 UTC
Is this actually an increase in wars? It matches the number of wars I remember them having rolling for ages....
I.E. Business as usual since they mainly camped trade hubs anyway I don't believe these changes have really affected them in any way and this is just a drama lama thread.
Neuntausend
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#117 - 2016-03-14 21:48:40 UTC
Another example: In my low sec days (around 2009, 2010 or somesuch) the Hurricane was the ****. It could take almost any foe, had a decent chance to disengage if outgunned and was fairly good at crashing gatecamps, but only if you knew what you were doing. Flying it as a flashy was still risky: It didn't align fast enough to avoid tackle, but it was faster than most things it couldn't take on, so you'd align away from the camp, overheat the MWD and neut/blap the hero tacklers, then gtfo.

These days, you'd just fly a Svipul. Costs about the same, has the same range, better defense and is nigh-uncatchable if it doesn't want to be caught. So why would I still want to take the risk of getting caught and swarmed with a Hurricane, when I can fly a Svipul, that is just as effective and can safely slip through any gatecamp with the push of a button? (Protip: I wouldn't, because it would be stupid)

Again - playing it safe beats taking risks.
Ralph King-Griffin
New Eden Tech Support
#118 - 2016-03-14 21:58:13 UTC
Nevyn Auscent wrote:
Is this actually an increase in wars? It matches the number of wars I remember them having rolling for ages....
I.E. Business as usual since they mainly camped trade hubs anyway I don't believe these changes have really affected them in any way and this is just a drama lama thread.

for pirat its about twice the usual, for the others mentioned in the op its about three or four times the norm.

as i said earlier we (devils) haven't started decing en mass as we are en devouring to adapt .

Murderers of Negotiable Motivations

=]|[=
Max Fubarticus
Raging Main
Bullets Bombs and Blondes
#119 - 2016-03-14 22:05:36 UTC
Ima Wreckyou wrote:
Herzog Wolfhammer wrote:
Whatever the case, this issue must be addressed somehow.

Consider the negative psychological effect on new players. Or ask yourself, if you were starting out in a game and suddenly more experienced players declare war on you solely for the purpose of catching you at a gate, and you look them up and see they are doing it to anything that moved for the reason of killing targets alone, what impression would you have of the game at that point?

Probably not a good one. Certainly not that kind that keeps you around.

Actually that happened to me and it was the first time the game became really interesting. People don't join EvE because it is such a great mining simulator. Somehow people like you always forget that this is a game about spaceship combat.


Wrong as usual. Eve online is about working and living in a futuristic space-borne civilization(s) which by its nature holds multiple aspects to the game. The environment itself necessitates "spaceship combat". But that is only one facet of the game. That's why we call it a "sandbox". The wrongheaded and narrow view of Eve by players like yourself is also a part of that sandbox. After all, Every universe needs its window lickers to create a balanced game.

What?
Max

Civil discourse is uniquely human. After all, when is the last time a pride of lions and a herd of water buffalo negotiated SOV over a watering hole? Never. Someone either gets their ass kicked or eaten. At the end of the day someone holds SOV.
Ibutho Inkosi
Doomheim
#120 - 2016-03-14 22:06:07 UTC
Ralph King-Griffin wrote:
Ibutho Inkosi wrote:
Ralph King-Griffin wrote:
everything.
Over-simplification is one thing, but reducing all this to THIS? Please.

its literally the only relevant thing that has changed so yeah it is that simple,
we called this about a month ago and here it is.
lol 'we' called it a month ago and this has been going on for two years now? What insight. Almost ...prophetic.

As long as the tale of the hunt is told by the hunter, and not the lion, it will favor the hunter.