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But that's not it, is it? Like if goons wanted to make one, they have to spend the 800b or whatever it is to build it, they have to actively defend it from attackers and agree to terms with the groups who do pose a significant threat, and that's just to get it off the ground. They then need to try to encourage people to move to it and actively assault any other citadels that try to compete with it and stop people from just shooting up anyone that tries to gank or wardec people going in and out of it.

Seriously, if you think it's so easy you should have no problem setting it up yourself to prove it.

I can't be bothered to go digging through old battle reports, but you're crazy if you think noone attempted to assault OTEC moons or rented sov.

Again you use this 30T/ month as if it's an achievable amount. Plus, you are giving a good reason right here why people would attack it, to gain control of that ISK.

The more people sharing it the smaller the slice of the pie for each. That said, good luck getting everyone to agree to terms while the citadel itself can only be held by one group.

You've got a massively biased and unrealistic opinion of what will happen, and you're just trying to scaremonger in the hope that the change won't come. The thing is this is a long term goal of EVE, so I doubt very much they will budge on it over propaganda from a known tinfoil hatter. At the end of the day if this comes out and a large group manages to secure the biggest market citadel in the game, then they deserve it, and if you choose not to do it yourself or do anything in game to stop them, that failing is on you. Either way it certainly won't be game over by a long shot.

- 800B is something I could pay, right here, right now.
- Agree with groups: already done https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-g-TijagZitQ/VlLer1HzIWI/AAAAAAAAK9s/3iEMlN3AOw8/s800-Ic42/grath.png
- Encouraging people: that's CCP's part, with the insane broker fees. The Citadel will easily have lower fees for users and zero for owners (as they pay for themselves)
- Assault any citadel? Who would dare to do that? Name a group please. Not "some people". You are so informed, please name the groups.
- Wardeccing users? Who? NPC corp haulers? Highsec deccers already dec anyone who is dumb enough to use a freighter out of NPC corp.

Quite unfortunately I don't have 10000 F1 pushers. Why? Because CCP forgot to mention that it would be useful one day. Before the citadel, having more people had no in-game benefit and I had no reason to expect it to change. If they'd annouce the same changes for 2017 April, than I would start getting such force. But do you expect me to do it in a few weeks?

The GRR project was ongoing during BotLord. I followed every detail, analyzed killboards and so on. I was looking for such group, so I can support them. There was none. No PBLRD Sov was ever even SBU-ed. Not once. Let me quote the BotLord Treaty:
No "sov fuckery" or organized renter harassment in designated home regions.
Further defined to include the following actions:
*shooting (or repping) of infrastructure towers, money towers, stations, SBUs, TCUs, IHUBs, POCOs
*siphoning of moons or using future idiotic CCP modules like the new ESS
*harassment of renters (individual fuckery will be cracked down on through best efforts)
*assisting non-signatories in doing any of the above

Goons introduced PBLRD when they learned that NC. pulls 400B/month from renters. 0.4T was so big that it made Goons abandon their old "no renters" doctrine. Even if I overestimate the 30T 10 times, 3T/month is still 7x bigger than 0.4T.

Let's say it's true and fair. But it's still the end of EVE, since once they did it, they can never ever be defeated again. No upcoming group can ever challenge them. If a "new Goonswarm" would appear, 1000 nerds from a community, acting as one, they could be huge today. After the citadels, they'd be laughed off. I tell you what will happen. CCP will implement these changes, ruin the economy, undo it after 2 months, but in the meantime, 20-30% of the players quit. Again: we aren't talking about "making some nerds unfairly rich". We are talking about "giving half of the ISK entering EVE to them and sinking the other half". The average player (not the mythic "casual", but the average of everyone, including me, you, Goon line, PL line, Snuff line, miners, everyone), will have less wealth than today and it gets transferred to a pre-selected group of Goon and PL directors.

@Rhivre, his point is that Miniluv/Code/Marmite/PL/GSF will all be on the same side.

As for LS groups, maybe, but how many people value their -10 status? In my experience, it's a lot.

I can also vouch for "dec-ing non-NPC freighter alts".

I'm sure you could, many traders could which is why shaking up trading is a good thing. Simply lowering fees alone won't encourage people, you have to prove that there won;t be a risk of having to recover your items and lose all your brokers fees. Not being funny, but I'm not moving more than 2000 orders only to watch the citadel be destroyed 2 weeks later and me have to reseed them again on the NPC market. Also, lowering the fees lowers their income.

Who would dare assault them? I imagine if goons had a citadel, MoA would still make it their mission to destroy goons, as would multiple other groups. Not everyone can just be paid off, in fac there's no guarantee they could even pay of PL.

You're suggesting that all the trade would move to one single location to make up your 30T figure, making the turkey shoot that would ensue hilarious.

Apprently youre super rich though and could set up the citadel then just pay people a cut of the profits to defend it. Is that not what you are claiming goons will do? Why could you not set up a citadel and cut all of these other big players in on it to defend it? If you went out and made the deals today they could be in place by the time citadels roll out and you'd be ready to go.

Well obviously the GRR project was as much a failure then as it is now, since if it was actually working then your minions would have assaulted their sov and moons. You know those rules they came up with only affected the people in the treat right? And that over half the population of the game were not bound by those terms. The only reason groups like the Imperium can do what they can do is because other players, including players like you, are far too lazy to put in even the basic effort to attack us. There are countless ways you could cause significant damage but it would require you to actually do more than just grind mining missions and pay rookies to attack bad ratters.

And I'm sure that means that goons will try to build a citadel, but that doesn't mean it is destined to be a success or that it guarantees solid income after expenses. If all the "grr goons" people simply refused to trade there, that would be a significant blow to their income, but all they have to do is lower the tax and people abandon their views for a quick profit. Again it comes down to the willingness (or lack thereof) of other players to do what it takes to win.

But that doesn't end EVE. Even if a group appeared, made a citadel and took all of the brokers fees and could never be defeated, the rest of the game would still continue as it always has. The only reason it would be the end of EVE is if you were so salty that another player was making a load of isk that you ragequit. If you ran it and earned all of that isk, it wouldn't make me quit, because it's irrelevant to me what another player accomplishes.

This will kill station trading stone dead.

"The end of eve" doesn't mean the servers shut down, it can also mean we end up with a couple of dominating groups who (like now) won't fight each. It can mean that the increased cost of everything due to monopolies and increased taxes turns people of logging in. Who really wants to rat for half their online time just to buy a ship, then repeat the next day to fit it so you can use it. Not everyone can make 100 isk ticks ratting.. And nor should they need to.

All these people saying "the economy will adjust because everyone is just getting richer" - Is not true, I know many players who survive day to day, week to week on as little pve as possible. These changes will see pressure put on some to either spend more time doing pve or get the credit card out - Guess which CCP is hoping for.

Those who don't want to deal with the increased cost to their wallet or extra time doing pve, will find another game to play and with all the new games coming out it shouldn't be too hard to find an alternative to Eve for too much longer.
Already, most TS servers have "playing other games" channels that can often have more in them than Eve channels, simply because for the most part, Eve is boring with short bursts of "that was fun".

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Citadels in their current proposal are very likely to add to the "Eve is boring" because they are not something open to all groups in the game.
For example, If a smaller group wants to put up a medium Citadel and run a market from it, why shouldn't they be allowed to?
If a group wants to dock supers in a large, why shouldn't they be able to buy a "storage module" or something similar and fit it?

CCP is arbitrarily handing the "I win" to the large rich groups who really don't need anymore assistance from the "game designers".
Ending up with a few dominating groups with blues from breakfast to lunch is not good for content - Start thinking about how smaller groups can fit in and have a impact on the universe of New Eden.

CCP need to start considering alternatives to the punitive game mechanics they seem so bent on. They are counterproductive and underwhelming as content creators.

And maybe that is your problem? You are like an old time classical economist trying to look at the water-diamond paradox from only one perspective. For decades they were wrong until Alfred Marshall came along and basically said, "You're doing it wrong." Part of the impact on the market is going to be the impact to the "normal guy". In your hubris you appear to have forgotten that and think all that matters are the traders.

Is a transaction involving a car a financial transaction? Yes, but certainly not the type Tobin was referring to in regards to a Tobin tax. Not even freaking close.

Your VAT analogy sucked, badly. You literally add no value to the commodity. You are an arbitrage trader.

What you are paying with the Broker's fee is a price. Now it will become, in many instances a price set by players as opposed to CCP.

I was trying to help your income tax analogy, not substitute my own. (I don't think that a VAT is comparable, but it is closer than income tax to me.)

I'm (whilst not wholly convinced by them) advancing Lucas' arguments that the success of a Citadel's markets will be based on their ability to attract traders. Looking at the attraction of the Citadel and comparing that to the attraction of NPC stations is what I'm trying to do, by raising the idea of a Tobin Tax. I'm focussing on ensuring that both market locations are healthy.

Broker's fees are fees paid to the market operator to hold a position (in Eve). Increasing that is a transaction tax.

Oh, and about the Mord thing. He wrote a "can anyone defeat them?", not a "no-one can defeat them". It was a question of ability, not a declaration of fact.

But they won't get "everyone" at most they can get "all the big groups" which still leaves over half the game out. What you're suggesting is complete nonsense, that they will somehow convince the majority of the game to join in on holding a citadel - which only one group will directly receive the taxes for. So many people would have to be in on it, the cut would be negligible anyway, and there would be no way they could trust the citadel holder not to just pocket the taxes and run away laughing.

Well, obviously never, but like I say they wouldn't be the only ones and they would be proof that not the "everyone" you say is needed could be bought.

That's not where all trade is though...

OK, so what you are saying is that it definitely can't be you? So when I said you were mad because the guy earning the ISK couldn't be you and you defiantly claimed it could be you you were actually lying because while you could open a citadel you have no chance of building the necessary political bridges it would require to keep it?

So we're back to, you're salty because the person earning the ISK won't be you.

Sure there will be more history lol, A citadel existing is no more the end of the game than goons owning a bunch of sov or OTEC controlling moon goo. Most people don't even notice and go about their business making their own history in their own way. I don't know where you get this idea that if a group or players built a citadel together that all other content universally across EVE would halt.

We fought plenty of bigger and smaller groups. Besides, I don't think most small groups will leave. The only people who would leave would be the people who are all ragey that someone else might be making more ISK than them, because let's face it, that's what most of the complaints here boil down to.