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Show of support for getting dev time for fixing the blob 1000 VS 1 AKA The Alpha Problem.

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Valei Khurelem
#21 - 2012-01-12 07:49:06 UTC
Yes that's right, more people bitching about someone who plays the game differently from them.

Welcome to EVE.

"don't get us wrong, we don't want to screw new players, on the contrary. The core problem here is that tech 1 frigates and cruisers should be appealing enough to be viable platforms in both PvE and PvP."   - CCP Ytterbium
KrakizBad
Section 8.
#22 - 2012-01-12 07:53:56 UTC
ASadOldGit wrote:
A variation on that though, is radio jamming - what if someone could disrupt the enemies fleet chat? (everyone would go to voice/TS3, etc, but it would certainly make things interesting. Perhaps too disruptive for a computer game, though, which is hardly a life or death situation...)


You have clearly never sat in a major fleet where SUDDENLY CHEETAHS and half your fleet crashes and your voice server is DDOS'ed to hell and gone, along with the 3 backup voice servers.

Pretty much what you're talking about, and damned effective.

Mirima Thurander wrote:
i have a strong dislike for large scale Fleet fights, only because I have never run one and don't know what goes into them at all.


Fixed that for you. Don't blame CCP for your ignorance. Roll
Abdiel Kavash
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#23 - 2012-01-12 08:28:06 UTC
ASadOldGit wrote:
"Camouflage", I guess, has transformed into cloaking, but to be consistent with that idea, if I'm "found", I can be "lost" again if I use the right tactics. So why can't I cloak if someone has target-lock on me? I'm technically harmless while cloaked, right? (I'm sure someone will come up with a gameplay reason why that would be "overpowered", but that's just an example.)

Because then cloakies could engage and disengage at will, making them practically invulnerable to anything other than an instant kill. The idea of striking from the shadows and quickly bailing before the enemy can realize wtf is going on is already realizable by bomber fleets.

Quote:
"Deception" would be interesting - what if I could disguise myself as blue temporarily and warp into the middle of an enemy fleet - surprise!
Or disguise myself as an asteroid, as has been mentioned in other threads.

Deception in EVE means masking your fleet movements - making them think you're somewhere you're not, or that you have greater or lesser numbers than you actually have. Deception is those three drakes you engage with your 10 man fleet, and deception is the "omg where did all these supers come from".

Quote:
"ECM" you all know and love - I'm sure 200 Falcons dropping in to say "Hi" are welcomed with open arms!
A variation on that though, is radio jamming - what if someone could disrupt the enemies fleet chat? (everyone would go to voice/TS3, etc, but it would certainly make things interesting. Perhaps too disruptive for a computer game, though, which is hardly a life or death situation...)

As you already pointed out, "jamming" in-game comms is completely useless. Messing with out of game comms does happen at alliance level, and is one of the hardest hits you can inflict to a fleet.

Quote:
"Flanking" is something that could be interesting - is it possible to do that in EVE? It says the main goal of flanking is to restrict movement, which I suppose the bubble does now.

Done in many forms. From the simple pincer maneuver on a gate, to using Jump Bridges to get ahead of an escaping fleet, to coordinating several fleets to lure the enemy into a trap.

Quote:
A futuristic equivalent of fortifications could be the projection of a force-field around whom you suspect to be the alpha-target - something projected by logis for example, that can absorb enormous amounts of firepower, perhaps blocking out-going weapons fire, and having longish cycle times, to balance it. Would that force/encourage the selection of multiple alpha-targets by the other fleet, perhaps with bluffing attacks on false-alphas so logis protect the wrong target?

You would simply alpha things that aren't protected by the forcefield. If there is enough logis to throw a forcefield on everything, you go for the logis.
Trin Javidan
Caymen Labs
#24 - 2012-01-12 08:34:37 UTC
better make the 100's thread about titan tracking, and why titan guns track and out dps 1400's. Its much harder to fight 30 tracking titans than a 300 man 1400 alpha blob. Atleast you can bomb the aplha blob, the titan blog is just invinceble exect vs 31 titan blob
Abdiel Kavash
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#25 - 2012-01-12 08:37:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Abdiel Kavash
Mirima Thurander wrote:
im starting to wonder when someones going to post proof that 300+ man fleets do more than

Shoot X

fleet shoots

o yea that's right, there is none.

Not entirely true. You have to get in the engagement first, and there are many things happenning before that. Maneuvering, trying to get intel on enemy fleet while denying them intel on yours, arranging reinforcements and escape routes, trying to get a fight at a range optimal to your fleet and disadvantageous to the other, pinning the enemy so they can't just run away (bubbles, gate camps). Just a few examples.

But yes, I can see how the bit where you target things and mash the F keys can be boring to some people.

A while ago I compared it to a chess game. While the single move capturing an important piece might be simple and obvious, the sequence of ten moves prior setting it up can take a master to pull off.

Quote:
who fly's a logie in 300+ man fleets, would you please tell the rest of EvE what you do in said fleets. ( besides get insta poped)

Going against anything else than an alpha composition, simply fix up whoever is taking damage, and try to spread reps so that 10 people are not repping the same guy. Range management is what keeps you alive - always fly manually and stay in range of your fleet, but as far away from the hostiles as possible.

Going against alphas - uh, watch everyone around you die and cry silently in a corner. I guess, use drones to kill interceptors and dictors and stuff? Wait until hopefully the fleets kill each other enough to the point that you can't alpha a ship anymore. Since logistic reps are irrelevant in this situation, nobody will actually target logis until there's literally nothing else left on the field.
CCP Phantom
C C P
C C P Alliance
#26 - 2012-01-12 10:01:25 UTC
Off topic posts removed. Please stay on topic and polite.

CCP Phantom - Senior Community Developer
Jaroslav Unwanted
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#27 - 2012-01-12 10:03:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Jaroslav Unwanted
KrakizBad wrote:
Mirima Thurander wrote:
ever one has to agree its a problem and get CCP to fix it


It's not a problem. You have failed already.

Mirima Thurander wrote:
clearly i all ready have taken my point in that thread, and it is not going any where.


Take the hint.


True its not problem..

Hint : crying for fights get more complex makes people against it what ??

Lets not call it an fix but an adjustment. More complex fights. More people engaged in actuall PvP .. not in ctrl+click broadcasted F1-F4 * rinse and repeat... People engaging in fights will actually learn something ..

cons : maneuverability in high lag environment.

Big coaltiion will still have upper hand but it will require more effort on the battlefield .. less "meta-gaming"
So fights will move to actual fighting .. instead of said "meta-gaming" gathering information etc.

In the end more ships will get destroyed .. everybody wins Big smile
Kestrix
The Whispering
#28 - 2012-01-12 10:08:27 UTC
Make items that are in the line of sight of the target break locks. So if your buddy in the fleet is bettween you and the target you have to move to a position that gives you a line of sight on the target.
Jaroslav Unwanted
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#29 - 2012-01-12 10:13:06 UTC
Kestrix wrote:
Make items that are in the line of sight of the target break locks. So if your buddy in the fleet is bettween you and the target you have to move to a position that gives you a line of sight on the target.


This thread is not about ideas how to do it.. More like about consensus if its worth it to look into it.

side note : LoS would make it un-playable for everyone in battle of 100+ people. Cool
Tallianna Avenkarde
Pyre of Gods
#30 - 2012-01-12 10:43:52 UTC
Oh the irony of true reign decrying tactics on the forums

070707m8m8m8 maybe you should just hug the station more, not agress then you can dock when yellow boxed ;););)

And a sudden plunge in the sullen swell. Ten fathoms deep on the road to hell.
Jaroslav Unwanted
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#31 - 2012-01-12 10:51:08 UTC
Tallianna Avenkarde wrote:
Oh the irony of true reign decrying tactics on the forums

070707m8m8m8 maybe you should just hug the station more, not agress then you can dock when yellow boxed ;););)


Question
thecunning mrfox
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#32 - 2012-01-12 11:06:55 UTC
Having flown in a number large fleet battles over the years this alpha "problem" as you describe it has always bothered me.

Having 1 guy (FC) order 1000 guys to shoot 1 guy ( 1 x 1000 - 1) is an enormous waste of resources and only benefits the FC who can run down the list shouting out primary. Although this has been mitigated by some more forward thinking FCs with the introduction of the "secondary" and of course a fast enough primary call list means a bit of a free for all anyway, as often people will skip the first few primary calls as he's dead before you ever lock him, just look at the kill mails, everyone who had 0% on a kill was wasted during that part of the engagement (and its usually a pretty big chunk of each killmail).

I understand the OP's idea that introducing a mechanic to encourage a wider ranging fight than our current "everyone hump the queen" tactic. However, it seems to me that in an even numbered battle, the fleet that has its 1k fleet members (numbers are an example not to be taken literally) split into teams of 100 should win out against the 1000 to 1 alpha fleet tactic, 100 guys blasting 1 is still overkill. it may not produce the instapops the 1 x 1000 - 1 ratio would but even if this kill rate dropped to half or even a quarter the 10 x 100 - 1 tactic should still rock out.

And this is really the main point of my post.
I've never seen this done, ever, period. Sure comms are a big reason this hasn't seen the light of day, lag probably as well, but i would imagine that a fleet that could demonstrate that this tactic can be done, would change the view that alpha tactic is the best way, especially if they are getting their rear handed to them on a regular basis by the 10 x 100 - 1 fleets and encourage what the OP wants.

Perhaps some FCs could comment on this? you guys are in a far superior position to explain to me and the OP why this tactic never sees the light of day.

TL;DR
good tactics should come naturally and not be forced by artificial mechanics, but for some reason logic does not prevail in large fleet battles. I would like to know why.
Jaroslav Unwanted
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#33 - 2012-01-12 11:10:22 UTC
blob = 80 percent non-PvPers .. some FC and rest people who hate it because they are core-PvPers.

Adding additional difficulty to an combat engagement, if done properly could be engaging and people can actually enjoy it and improve their skills.

But i repeat myself.. so i will end my view there.

Ammzi
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#34 - 2012-01-12 11:15:29 UTC
Stacking penalties on weapon fire.

Someone fires 100 missiles on one target - and all the missiles survive - lol wut?
The larger the ship - the more ships can shoot it.
The smaller the ship - the less ships can shoot it.

Break off fleets into real squads and wings. With REAL squad commanders and wing commanders.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#35 - 2012-01-12 11:21:28 UTC
I spend a alot of the time outnumbered several hundred to 1. The trick is to pick your targets well and be ready to gtfo.

No changes needed, just smarter brave pilots.
Tallianna Avenkarde
Pyre of Gods
#36 - 2012-01-12 11:26:20 UTC
Jaroslav Unwanted wrote:
Tallianna Avenkarde wrote:
Oh the irony of true reign decrying tactics on the forums

070707m8m8m8 maybe you should just hug the station more, not agress then you can dock when yellow boxed ;););)


Question


Was decrying OP's whine of, admittedly lame game mechanics and tactics, when her alliance makes use of an equally annoying and lame tactic/game mechanic.

Entire thread was tl;dr and I am slightly bored :S

And a sudden plunge in the sullen swell. Ten fathoms deep on the road to hell.
Rel'k Bloodlor
Federation Front Line Report
Federation Front Line
#37 - 2012-01-12 11:29:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Rel'k Bloodlor
There is a penalty for 1000 guys shooting one, wasted DPS. If you FC orders that much over kill that's a mistake on his part. EvE news 24 right now has a goon video that clearly shows the recorder of it with a 4/4 split of his guns and using them to hit 2 targets at once. If you have the FC's you can take this to what ever level you would like with squad commanders calling 2 targets ect ect, doesn't save you from the alpha but punishes them for wasting dps that's for shure. If the the getting alpha'd is not for you then don't fleet up that big, take your fights else were. Now If your in some huge mega corp in null and you are under contract to obey and fleet up like that, is that not your fault?

I wanted to paint my space ship red, but I couldn't find enough goats. 
The Snowman
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#38 - 2012-01-12 11:52:53 UTC
How about a limit on how many ships can lock one target?

increasing that limit depending on the size of the ship, and / or some module/skill/implant that can effect such statistic?
Jaroslav Unwanted
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#39 - 2012-01-12 12:03:00 UTC
Tallianna Avenkarde wrote:
Jaroslav Unwanted wrote:
Tallianna Avenkarde wrote:
Oh the irony of true reign decrying tactics on the forums

070707m8m8m8 maybe you should just hug the station more, not agress then you can dock when yellow boxed ;););)


Question


Was decrying OP's whine of, admittedly lame game mechanics and tactics, when her alliance makes use of an equally annoying and lame tactic/game mechanic.

Entire thread was tl;dr and I am slightly bored :S


I see therefore you actually havent read OP, as there is no "idea" "feature" change whatsoever mentioned..

Just an general question if it should be looked into and eventually be improved...
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#40 - 2012-01-12 12:03:42 UTC
The Snowman wrote:
How about a limit on how many ships can lock one target?

increasing that limit depending on the size of the ship, and / or some module/skill/implant that can effect such statistic?


Hate this idea.