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March release - New Camera Feedback

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Soleil Fournier
Fliet Pizza Delivery
Of Essence
#41 - 2016-03-14 00:50:33 UTC
Ok I've tried the new camera for a while to get used to it. Here's my issues:

1) The smoothness dial works great, but it messes with zoom speed too. I like the camera to be more precise but the zoom to be more smooth. Unfortunately, I can only choose one or the other because they're tied together. If we could separate these two things into two selection options that would be great.

2) The zoom gets way too close to the ship, even allowing the camera to go inside the ship. The old camera had a hard-stop that prevented the camera from getting too close to the ship, and I liked that hard-stop. Hoping that you return it to that way. (As a side note, if I disable the new camera, then re-enable it again, that old hard-stop returns and stays with the new camera).
CCP Darwin
C C P
C C P Alliance
#42 - 2016-03-14 01:52:33 UTC  |  Edited by: CCP Darwin
Just to clarify, the camera system is owned by our UI team, Team Psycho Sisters, and not Eve's art team, Team TriLambda. Art direction choices are not driving Eve's camera implementation.

Please keep the discussion here focused on practical usability feedback.

CCP Darwin  •  Senior Software Engineer, Art & Graphics, EVE Online  •  @mark_wilkins
Miss 'Assassination' Cayman
CK-0FF
Intergalactic Space Hobos
#43 - 2016-03-14 02:12:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Miss 'Assassination' Cayman
After using this version for a couple days it seems like a vast improvement over the last version. Overall it's almost as usable as the old camera, and the new features are handy. I do have a couple issues though:
1. The vertical and horizontal sensitivity are still different. That makes it a chore to look up or down and makes moving the camera diagonally feel really weird.
2. Zooming still feels laggy and uncontrolled regardless of the inertia setting.
3. There seems to be some issue with the client freezing when looking at stargates. Several times now the client has frozen for either 3-5 seconds or permanently while sitting near various Minmatar stargates. I still need to submit a bug report, but I'm trying to get the client to recover once so I can include the logs.
4. Tracking an object in tactical view while the camera is looking at a ship causes the camera to detach from what it was looking at. It would be nice to track something while still having the camera move with its what it's focused on.
5. Tracking the sun in tactical mode often causes everything to go black like the camera is in its own shadow.
6. The default inertia setting seems a bit bouncy. It's easily fixable by moving the slider, but the default doesn't feel like a good default.
7. In tactical mode it's hard to look at a location from different directions. The camera turns around its own location instead of orbiting a point some distance away. To look at something from a different direction you have to move the camera to a place where you probably can't see what you want to look at then turn to look there again, or turn to look in a random direction then move the camera where you want it. I'm not sure if there's any reasonable way to allow the camera to orbit some arbitrary point in space due to varying distances, but the way it works now is a bit awkward.
8. The default field of view seems much too narrow. It's probably just me, but the first thing I have to do after enabling the new camera is adjust the FoV to about 1-2 clicks less than max.
CCP Darwin
C C P
C C P Alliance
#44 - 2016-03-14 02:35:47 UTC
Miss 'Assassination' Cayman wrote:
3. There seems to be some issue with the client freezing when looking at stargates. Several times now the client has frozen for either 3-5 seconds or permanently while sitting near various Minmatar stargates. I still need to submit a bug report, but I'm trying to get the client to recover once so I can include the logs.

This is likely not a camera issue, but your bug report would definitely be helpful.

In the new launcher, if you visit the Settings window from the menu in the upper right, you can check "Run clients with logging." This will start a separate logging application called LogLite along with your game client.

Even if the client completely freezes, you should be able to tab out to the LogLite application and save a log file. Then, submit your bug report from our bug reporting web page here.

Note that we currently are having issues with attachments named with the .log extension on that site. You can rename the log file with the extension .txt and your submission should work. If you get an error message, the bug report still has most likely gone through, but you can mail me in-game to check.

CCP Darwin  •  Senior Software Engineer, Art & Graphics, EVE Online  •  @mark_wilkins
Miss 'Assassination' Cayman
CK-0FF
Intergalactic Space Hobos
#45 - 2016-03-14 02:42:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Miss 'Assassination' Cayman
CCP Darwin wrote:
Miss 'Assassination' Cayman wrote:
3. There seems to be some issue with the client freezing when looking at stargates. Several times now the client has frozen for either 3-5 seconds or permanently while sitting near various Minmatar stargates. I still need to submit a bug report, but I'm trying to get the client to recover once so I can include the logs.

This is likely not a camera issue, but your bug report would definitely be helpful.

In the new launcher, if you visit the Settings window from the menu in the upper right, you can check "Run clients with logging." This will start a separate logging application called LogLite along with your game client.

Even if the client completely freezes, you should be able to tab out to the LogLite application and save a log file. Then, submit your bug report from our bug reporting web page here.

Note that we currently are having issues with attachments named with the .log extension on that site. You can rename the log file with the extension .txt and your submission should work. If you get an error message, the bug report still has most likely gone through, but you can mail me in-game to check.

Will do. I'm 99% sure it's related to the new camera though. It never happened once with the old camera, then happened several times in one day with the new camera, then stopped after switching back to the old camera. It's probably the new camera indirectly exposing some other problem, but it does seem connected.
Zappity
New Eden Tank Testing Services
#46 - 2016-03-14 04:15:12 UTC
The new camera is still freezing. You can zoom in and out but the camera doesn't rotate or move beyond that. Switching back to the old camera fixes it. Bug report submitted.

Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec and nullsec.
Dominous Nolen
The Graduates
The Initiative.
#47 - 2016-03-14 06:06:02 UTC
The camera had a tendency to drift when you bounce off a gate as the animation is triggering during session changes.

@dominousnolen

"Fly dangerously, Fly safe, Fly whatever, just keep Flying." - Lee Blackwood
CCP Turtlepower
C C P
C C P Alliance
#48 - 2016-03-14 11:09:25 UTC
Lapuna Nejilii wrote:
The camera "warp offset". When you warp, the camera is centered around a point in front of your ship, not on your ship, I find it disturbing.

There is a toggle for this, it is in the Esc menu under Display&Graphics, on the left side, called "Dynamic Center Offset".

Lapuna Nejilii wrote:

The other camera rotation. With the old camera, you can look around with the right click, it was a good thing that is missing with the new one.

We will be adding this to the new camera soon.

Divine Entervention wrote:
I right click in space and my camera becomes unanchored.
Now, this wouldn't be too bad if it were as easy to reattach the camera as it is to unattach it.

This is in the Tactical Camera, and we are aware of the issue. Alt + LMB in space should simply reattach the camera to your ship; we will fix this soon.

Tippia wrote:
• Look camera does not toggle. Same thing here: if you are looking at a target, repeating the action does not turn the look camera off; quite the opposite. Turning look off is a separate action. This is particularly silly since, unlike the tracking camera, the “selected objects” panel actually does offer a functional toggle — it just doesn't carry over to the camera shortcut.

• Camera resets and changes still aren't instant, and instead involve some insipid and drunken camera move to shift the camera over to the new object. Even with all fancy effects and inertia turned off, you spend time looking at nothing rather than the thing you're asking the game to show you.

Lots of good feedback as usual, thanks. The above 2 points are a bit unclear to me however, could you elaborate on them please?

Miss 'Assassination' Cayman wrote:
3. There seems to be some issue with the client freezing when looking at stargates. Several times now the client has frozen for either 3-5 seconds or permanently while sitting near various Minmatar stargates. I still need to submit a bug report, but I'm trying to get the client to recover once so I can include the logs.

Thank you! That bug report would be hugely appreciated.

<3
CCP Turtlepower
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#49 - 2016-03-14 17:38:16 UTC
CCP Turtlepower wrote:
Tippia wrote:
• Look camera does not toggle. Same thing here: if you are looking at a target, repeating the action does not turn the look camera off; quite the opposite. Turning look off is a separate action. This is particularly silly since, unlike the tracking camera, the “selected objects” panel actually does offer a functional toggle — it just doesn't carry over to the camera shortcut.

• Camera resets and changes still aren't instant, and instead involve some insipid and drunken camera move to shift the camera over to the new object. Even with all fancy effects and inertia turned off, you spend time looking at nothing rather than the thing you're asking the game to show you.

Lots of good feedback as usual, thanks. The above 2 points are a bit unclear to me however, could you elaborate on them please?


First one:

If you select an object, it will obviously be highlighted in the “selected object” panel and the “look at” button will light up. If you look at the target, and the button turns into a crossed-out button that returns the camera to your own ship. Both of these are good, sensible, and working actions — the button is a proper “look at”-toggle. However, doing the same thing with the look-at keyboard short cut does not replicate the button behaviour. Alt-clicking a target looks at it. Alt-clicking the target again does not return the camera to your ship, but rather just looks at the target you're already looking at — no toggle.

This is not only inconsistent between button- and shortcut behaviour, it is also inconsistent with how the tracking camera works, where every action only ever turns that particular camera on (which imo is a bad behaviour — it should also always be a toggle).

Second one:

Every time you change the type of camera target, be it by looking at or tracking, or resetting either of the two, the camera physically whips across the scene to go to its new position and/or direaction. It does so fairly quickly, but it really shouldn't do it at all unless I'm asking for it — it's not relevant to me as a user and keeps me from seeing what I want to see. I could conceivably see a case for the tracking camera and how it rotates into place, but even then it's highly situational and I'm far more interested in immediately seeing my target rather than watch the camera fly around and try to figure out where it needs to go. If I want to see where it is in relation to some other target, I can just zoom out.

Just snap the camera into position, or at least make sure that at the stiffest inertia setting, the move is instantaneous.
Miss 'Assassination' Cayman
CK-0FF
Intergalactic Space Hobos
#50 - 2016-03-14 17:56:29 UTC
Tippia wrote:
First one:

If you select an object, it will obviously be highlighted in the “selected object” panel and the “look at” button will light up. If you look at the target, and the button turns into a crossed-out button that returns the camera to your own ship. Both of these are good, sensible, and working actions — the button is a proper “look at”-toggle. However, doing the same thing with the look-at keyboard short cut does not replicate the button behaviour. Alt-clicking a target looks at it. Alt-clicking the target again does not return the camera to your ship, but rather just looks at the target you're already looking at — no toggle.

This is not only inconsistent between button- and shortcut behaviour, it is also inconsistent with how the tracking camera works, where every action only ever turns that particular camera on (which imo is a bad behaviour — it should also always be a toggle).

That's kind of the same as locking a target. If you click the lock button in the selected item window, it turns into an unlock button. However, if you ctrl+click something, crtrl+clicking it again won't unlock it.
Erebus 'TheChin' Sundance
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#51 - 2016-03-15 11:09:28 UTC
CCP Turtlepower wrote:


Lapuna Nejilii wrote:

The other camera rotation. With the old camera, you can look around with the right click, it was a good thing that is missing with the new one.

We will be adding this to the new camera soon.


CCP Turtlepower


Awesomeness, will it also have the zoom ability while holding the left mouse button down too? ...Pretty please, with cherry's and stuff on.


cheers
Areen Sassel
Dirac Angestun Gesept
#52 - 2016-03-15 19:11:36 UTC
After today's patch I find the first-person camera doesn't respect the Camera Offset setting. It did until very recently.
CCP Turtlepower
C C P
C C P Alliance
#53 - 2016-03-16 09:29:58 UTC
Erebus 'TheChin' Sundance wrote:
Awesomeness, will it also have the zoom ability while holding the left mouse button down too? ...Pretty please, with cherry's and stuff on.

Yup!

CCP Turtlepower
Grookshank
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#54 - 2016-03-16 10:00:24 UTC
Grookshank wrote:
The FOV adjustment of the new camera needs an option slider so you can reliably set it. Also please make it possible to remove the keybinding to ALT+scroll for it, so you can just set it to a fixed value.

Any news on this?

Also the FOV does not persist session changes / gate jumps. I submitted a bug report, but it just got closed without a comment.
Idame Isqua
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#55 - 2016-03-16 11:49:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Idame Isqua
New camera is great

But something that has been talked about a bit before

Manually piloting towards a ship is easy to do
You just click on their ship and start clicking in space

Manually piloting away from a ship is hard to do
You have to look at the ship/object then find your own ships icon in space and click on that

It would be excellent if auto tracking is enabled and you look at/move camera focus onto another object it defaults to tracking your own ship
As this would be excellent for pvp
If people want to do something else not pvp related they have time to press other buttons click on other stuff etc.

So I just play tested all this

And the other issue I have is while double clicking in space its easy to accidentally disable tracking
which is a bad result
and also defeats the purpose of those tracking control shortcuts?

So in short
if i enable auto tracking make it hard lock in the on position
always tracking unless i press a shortcut or something (not drag left click in space)
and make it logical in that if i look at something it auto tracks my own ship

So again/stillI have the same issue I have stated many times before
the same issue that was broken in the old camera

theirs a short cut key to look at
but pressing it again dosnt turn off look at
I have to wade through hard to use menu's to get the camera back on my own ship and tracking things I click on
which as always I need to do effortless and quickly otherwise I go pop
and dying while fighting the eve UI when I want to die in honorable space combat isn't fun
CCP Turtlepower
C C P
C C P Alliance
#56 - 2016-03-16 16:28:18 UTC  |  Edited by: CCP Turtlepower
Grookshank wrote:
Grookshank wrote:
The FOV adjustment of the new camera needs an option slider so you can reliably set it. Also please make it possible to remove the keybinding to ALT+scroll for it, so you can just set it to a fixed value.

Any news on this?

Also the FOV does not persist session changes / gate jumps. I submitted a bug report, but it just got closed without a comment.


Sorry about that; We received the bug report and are discussing the points made.

CCP Turtlepower
Miss 'Assassination' Cayman
CK-0FF
Intergalactic Space Hobos
#57 - 2016-03-17 02:30:23 UTC
Idame Isqua wrote:

theirs a short cut key to look at
but pressing it again dosnt turn off look at
I have to wade through hard to use menu's to get the camera back on my own ship and tracking things I click on
which as always I need to do effortless and quickly otherwise I go pop

I'm not sure about the tracking part, but you can just alt+click in space to look at your own ship again.
Idame Isqua
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#58 - 2016-03-17 06:08:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Idame Isqua
Miss 'Assassination' Cayman wrote:
Idame Isqua wrote:

theirs a short cut key to look at
but pressing it again dosnt turn off look at
I have to wade through hard to use menu's to get the camera back on my own ship and tracking things I click on
which as always I need to do effortless and quickly otherwise I go pop

I'm not sure about the tracking part, but you can just alt+click in space to look at your own ship again.


Testing this now
Ok that works wow thanks

But I still think the look at button should be functional on its own
Without having to use the mouse
i.e. if i hit look at without clicking on something, it looks at what i have selected
if i hit it again it returns to my ship
if i hit it again it looks at what i was looking at before

and if I have PVP camera mode i.e. autotracking
if I look at something it should default to autotracking my own ship
unless i do something else to tell it not to

Not only am I sure this sort of logical implementation would be appreciated by all PvP pilots, newbros, and the less able bodied, to me at least it just seems purely logical.
Less clicks is a win for everyone.

So it's really just tracking being easy to accidentally turn off
and very hard to turn on in comparison

and its a nightmare trying to track your own ship from another object

these all combine to make a very bad experience

as if I actually manage to get the camera tracking my own ship from someone elses
I can start manually piloting /spiraling away, until the "you did something I'm not gonna track that object you went to great effort to start tracking" feature kicks in.

Heres a diagram:

camera pointing at [My ship] with [enemy ship] behind it
this enables me to manually pilot towards (spiral) the ship by clicking in space


Getting the camera into this position is a nightmare as explained below
camera pointing at [enemy ship] tracking [my own ship] behind it
this enables me to manually pilot (spiral) away by clicking in space

Accidentally getting the camera into a useless position is easy

Now if I want to manually pilot away its a huge problem
I hit look at [enemy ship]
ok great but the camera is tracking nothing and being useless/pointless
now I have to zoom out and generally just hunt around for those small brackets around my own ship
ok i found my own ship in space huzzah!
ok now I have to click on it
wow that was frustrating
ok great now I can manually pilot/spiral away
Opps I accidentally clicked wrong
Now the camera isn't tracking my own ship
Back to hunting for my own ships brackets in space
Found it again
Ok now I have to click on it
Dam this is hard work
Ok now I can manually pilot away again
But by now I'm feeling like the eve UI is utter rubbish and makes playing the game a nightmare


If none gets this maybe we can arrange a TS session with a in-game demonstration ?

This also ties in with how I think the shortcut keys for orbit warp to etc. work
It shouldn't require two hands
If I have clicked on something it should presume that object is still the primary focus
Better yet if I haven't clicked on something default to whatever is on the top of the overview
Adding this doesn't require adjusting existing functions
And it doesn't effect people who are happy and used to click-a-thons

Also to demonstrate
Look at how the show info box works
If I want to orbit something I can click orbit on that
But I cant use my keyboard shortcut... without clicking on something...
what? why?
Personally I have and I know a lot of other people have (just look at peoples eve online videos)
they don't use this window or have minimized or hid the show info window, as its a waste of screen space and shouldn't be needed
Pandora Carrollon
Provi Rapid Response
#59 - 2016-03-17 22:27:34 UTC
Memphis Baas wrote:
Not quite related, but there's not enough visual feedback that an undock has been requested. The undock button is yellow, and yes there are strobe lights in the station exit tunnel indicating you're about to go, but if your ship-spinning camera isn't pointed towards the exit, you won't see them.

Can you rotate the in-station camera to point in the same direction as the ship (towards the exit), when the undock button is pressed? That way we'll see the strobe lights.


I'd also like to hear a "Docking departure requested..." and when final "Departure granted...", to mirror the dock request process.

8 Golden Rules of EVE • EVE is entirely PvP
Pandora Carrollon
Provi Rapid Response
#60 - 2016-03-17 22:31:43 UTC
I didn't have enough time under the old camera for it to make an impression on my. It seemed simple enough though. Once the major bugs were fixed with the new one, I'm fine with it. I use all 3 modes and killed off Dynamic POV, that was horrible. Some of the flyby features get comical and sometimes look nice.

I wish it kept zoom settings and remembered them from last time ship was in space. Constantly having to adjust zoom and position can get problematic... especially in combat.

Other than that, it works. I don't care about the in station bobbing either, I usually have a dozen or so windows covering the ship anyway.

8 Golden Rules of EVE • EVE is entirely PvP