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Broker fee will increase to 5% and transaction taxes to 2.5%
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Bad Bobby
Bring Me Sunshine
In Tea We Trust
#21 - 2016-03-11 07:38:45 UTC
Sabriz Adoudel wrote:
Some things will have to move. PLEX in particular, unless PLEX trade is entirely confined to contracts in the future.
They'll put contract fees up too, once they've added contracts to citadels.

Sabriz Adoudel wrote:
You simply cannot flip PLEX with a ~3.7% broker fee paid on every buy order and every sell order.
You also cannot flip PLEX in a Citadel with no suppliers or customers. If the people stay at 4-4, the PLEX market will stay at 4-4 and the price will be what the price will be.

Remember that these Citadels are going to be largely inferior to NPC stations, at least at release. Jita 4-4 has had competition from NPC stations that are strictly superior to it for many, many years. Jita has a critical mass and inertia so great that it will take a titan's blow to shift it.

I don't think CCP should attempt to strike that blow, because they'll probably ruin the game in the process. I think they should give us the tools so that resourceful player organisations can strike it for them. That's excellent sandbox content, not massive nerfs from on high.

Sadly, it's going to take a long, long time for them to release the necessary tools, because that work is hard. They can make Citadels such a well produced, refined and feature rich creation that NPC stations become a legacy relic by comparison. With a carrot that sweet, the stick is really not needed.

Unfortunately, it's going to take far, far less time and effort for them to massively nerf NPC stations instead.
erg cz
Federal Jegerouns
#22 - 2016-03-11 08:27:56 UTC
Bad Bobby wrote:
Jita has a critical mass and inertia so great that it will take a titan's blow to shift it.

I don't think CCP should attempt to strike that blow, because they'll probably ruin the game in the process. I think they should give us the tools so that resourceful player organisations can strike it for them. That's excellent sandbox content, not massive nerfs from on high.



Faction warfare will be seriosly changed. Instead of 2 vs 2 it will become 4 vs 4. So I believe some systems between Amarr and Caldari and between Gallente and Minmatar will switch to be FW war zones. Jita is so close to Gallente Border Zone constallation, that it is quite simple to include Jita into new low sec faction warfare zone.

Both Gallente Border Zone constallation and Kimotoro (where Jita is placed) can become new FW zones and that will effectively blow Jita as "one hub to rule them all". Simple , effective, not breaking any game mechanics and ridiculously strong kick to the game PVP activity, cause moving all that stuff out will make gankers so happy...

Absolutely free head start for newcomers!. Just click the link and get extra 250 000 SP!
Mad Abbat
Talon Swarm
#23 - 2016-03-11 14:41:33 UTC
How is watching tides of JF jumping in and out make gankers happy? Code will ne destroyed by this, lol. Os as your dreams. N00b
Jay Aaron
M-Spec Industrial Resources Ltd
Agents of Fortune
#24 - 2016-03-11 16:30:10 UTC
NPC markets, Jita in particular, will adapt to this by moving to wider bid/asked spreads swiftly and efficiently. Nothing more than a tidy little ISK sink. It might make the business of exporting to Citadels a bit more lucrative than what otherwise would have been.

The worst part of this will be having to grind standings for several trade alts to help overcome the more significant fees.

Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#25 - 2016-03-12 05:19:45 UTC
Scotsman Howard wrote:


What is more than likely going to happen is prices all over Eve will rise about about 3-5% to compensate.


Nope. They may rise, but unless every item in the game is perfectly inelastic in terms of its price elasticity of demand it won't be that high.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#26 - 2016-03-12 05:21:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Teckos Pech
Bad Bobby wrote:
Sabriz Adoudel wrote:
Some things will have to move. PLEX in particular, unless PLEX trade is entirely confined to contracts in the future.
They'll put contract fees up too, once they've added contracts to citadels.

Sabriz Adoudel wrote:
You simply cannot flip PLEX with a ~3.7% broker fee paid on every buy order and every sell order.
You also cannot flip PLEX in a Citadel with no suppliers or customers. If the people stay at 4-4, the PLEX market will stay at 4-4 and the price will be what the price will be.

Remember that these Citadels are going to be largely inferior to NPC stations, at least at release. Jita 4-4 has had competition from NPC stations that are strictly superior to it for many, many years. Jita has a critical mass and inertia so great that it will take a titan's blow to shift it.

I don't think CCP should attempt to strike that blow, because they'll probably ruin the game in the process. I think they should give us the tools so that resourceful player organisations can strike it for them. That's excellent sandbox content, not massive nerfs from on high.

Sadly, it's going to take a long, long time for them to release the necessary tools, because that work is hard. They can make Citadels such a well produced, refined and feature rich creation that NPC stations become a legacy relic by comparison. With a carrot that sweet, the stick is really not needed.

Unfortunately, it's going to take far, far less time and effort for them to massively nerf NPC stations instead.






Also, remember....no citadels in Jita. Nor Amarr, IIRC.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Aaron Honk
Distributed Denial of Service
#27 - 2016-03-12 08:07:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Aaron Honk
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Elizabeth Norn
Nornir Research
Nornir Empire
#28 - 2016-03-12 13:07:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Elizabeth Norn
Aaron Honk wrote:


Standing are useless now. there is no point grinding them, here is my reasoning:

Before standings would decrease the broker fee from 0.75% to (maximum) 0.1875%, but more realistically 0.25% for 8 to 9 standings, that's 3x times less broker fee. now the formula is different, it reduces the fee from 4% to 3.55% with 9 standings, that's only a 11% decrease.

So, to me, there is no point grinding standing up to 8 or 9, it's too hard and there is no reward for it.


But all your competition will have them, it just means that you'll have to trade more to earn your money back.

Free 3rd party services

Buddy link w/ bonus 250k SP, you keep the whole PLEX upon subscribing
Marcus Tedric
Zebra Corp
Goonswarm Federation
#29 - 2016-03-12 15:54:52 UTC
At last some sensible comments.....

The market fees have been at least 1/10th of what they should have been for 13 years - at last an adjustment is happening.

Don't soil your panties, you guys made a good point, we'll look at the numbers again. - CCP Ytterbium
Tipa Riot
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#30 - 2016-03-13 09:49:02 UTC
Marcus Tedric wrote:
At last some sensible comments.....

The market fees have been at least 1/10th of what they should have been for 13 years - at last an adjustment is happening.

Why?

A liquid market and big trade volumes with small spreads is ten times more desirable for a healthy economy than an ISK sink. Spreads shall be defined by supply and demand and not be dominated by fees.

I'm my own NPC alt.
Aaron Honk
Distributed Denial of Service
#31 - 2016-03-13 09:51:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Aaron Honk
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Marcus Tedric
Zebra Corp
Goonswarm Federation
#32 - 2016-03-13 13:26:03 UTC
Aaron Honk wrote:
[quote=Tipa Riot]..................

My guess is that he is just happy for his alliance to get to collect trade fees in high sec Roll


Pathetic...

I guess from your style, however, that you are an economist or one that subscribes to that pseudo-science based upon a false premise.

Note: All the modern states that have subscribed to Keynesian (sic) economic theory are now hideously in debt; with a few exploiting it mercilessly.

The fees should have been higher all the time to pay for station upkeep and CONCORD - at the very least.

- Sales Tax (VAT) ~20%

- Corporation Tax 10-30%

- Broker Fees 10-40%

Figures based upon RL examples like that would have been much more sensible. Then there wouldn't need to be such change now to allow the players to take control if they wished.

And yes, I had indeed, perhaps erroneously, expected better here than trolling.

Don't soil your panties, you guys made a good point, we'll look at the numbers again. - CCP Ytterbium
Aaron Honk
Distributed Denial of Service
#33 - 2016-03-13 14:14:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Aaron Honk
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Marcus Tedric
Zebra Corp
Goonswarm Federation
#34 - 2016-03-13 15:10:20 UTC
Aaron Honk wrote:
[quote=Marcus Tedric]..................

We are not in real life, we are in a game.



Actually I think not (not in 'modern' terms at least).

One of the things I like so much about EVE is that it seems to be set up much more as a 'simulation', which has been made more practicable to a non-RL pastime/hobby and thus has been 'game-ified'. Sadly that sometimes seems to result in 'dumbing down' towards the much more common 'entertainments' that are sold as games these days; but I accept that is the majority of the marketplace.

The point being that, as I have mentioned elsewhere, if the Taxes had been where they should have been for all these years; then this change would be greeted with joy as opposed to whining. Thus we have a harder sell.

Don't soil your panties, you guys made a good point, we'll look at the numbers again. - CCP Ytterbium
Hiver Chanlin
Holdings and Transit
#35 - 2016-03-14 02:32:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Hiver Chanlin
TL;DR - Changes in market fees will be a very strong force to change player behavior. 29.145 T per month of force.

The purpose of this is to measure in numbers how much force the changes in market fees will apply to change player behavior. Can players (pvpers, missioners, traders and industrialists) make small changes slowly and take the hit or will they need to make big changes quickly?

The assumptions are based on nothing changing. If players don't change anything, when the new fees hit, what would it look like? Each adaptation that players make will change the assumptions and reduce the impact.

Based on:

* February [ISK sinks and faucets](http://cdn1.eveonline.com/www/newssystem/media/70094/1/10_-_hO35OM1.png)
* February [Trade value](http://cdn1.eveonline.com/www/newssystem/media/70094/1/02_-_LBAeCSa.png)
* Proposed [taxes and fees math](https://www.reddit.com/r/Eve/comments/49p3la/update_on_structure_services/)

1. 9817 B in Transaction taxes and 5888 B in Brokers fees were paid on 936 T traded value.
2. The average transaction tax rate is 1.04% and the average brokers fees is 0.629%
3. The new average transaction tax will be 2.04%
4. Based on [this graph](http://dl.eve-files.com/media/corp/Thoraemond/eve-market-order-broker-fees-20110417.png) The average effective fees before skills are `(0.629 / 0.75) = 0.838%`. One set of standings that would correspond to that is Corp 3 Faction 1. (Assuming max skills brokers relations skills simplifies the math and won't affect the ballpark result).
5. The new math for brokers fees with those assumptions would be: `5% - (5*.02 + 1*0.03 + 3*.02) = 3.91%` NPC fees.
6. Assuming the same trade volume (these are volumes in NPC stations only) the new monthly totals would be: `936T*2.04%=19.09 T` taxes and `936T * 3.91% = 36.5976 T` in brokers fees.
7. The proposed taxes will be 9.273 T more than current taxes. That's an unavoidable increase in ISK sinks.
8. Current monthly net ISK gain is 10.83 T. Less the increased taxes is 1.557 T. Add the 5.888 T of current brokers fees and you have 7.445 T net ISK gain *before brokers fees* under the new fee schedule.
9. 7.445 T is 20 % of the new 36.59 T brokers fees
10. If no NPC market activity moves to citadels, and no other change in player behaviour, there will be a net decrease in ISK of 29.145 T per month in the overall economy.
11. The total ISK in player wallets (750 T) is 25.7 times the monthly ISK deficit assuming no changes to player behavior.
Jay Aaron
M-Spec Industrial Resources Ltd
Agents of Fortune
#36 - 2016-03-14 03:50:53 UTC
Hiver Chanlin wrote:
TL;DR - interesting analysis

Hmmm... I guess my notion of a "tidy little ISK sink" is a bit of an understatement.

With any degree of accuracy in your analysis, we'll need an unprecedented level of adaptation to this change, or turn out the lights, the party's over in a couple of years...
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#37 - 2016-03-14 04:25:07 UTC
Jay Aaron wrote:
Hiver Chanlin wrote:
TL;DR - interesting analysis

Hmmm... I guess my notion of a "tidy little ISK sink" is a bit of an understatement.

With any degree of accuracy in your analysis, we'll need an unprecedented level of adaptation to this change, or turn out the lights, the party's over in a couple of years...


Probably not.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online
Rhivre
TarNec
Invisible Exchequer
#38 - 2016-03-14 07:50:56 UTC
Hiver Chanlin wrote:

10. If no NPC market activity moves to citadels, and no other change in player behaviour, there will be a net decrease in ISK of 29.145 T per month in the overall economy.
11. The total ISK in player wallets (750 T) is 25.7 times the monthly ISK deficit assuming no changes to player behavior.


So even if nothing changes, its is not that much of a problem.


Fluffy Bunny Pic!

Sabriz Adoudel
Move along there is nothing here
#39 - 2016-03-14 08:15:20 UTC
Bad Bobby wrote:
Sabriz Adoudel wrote:
Some things will have to move. PLEX in particular, unless PLEX trade is entirely confined to contracts in the future.
They'll put contract fees up too, once they've added contracts to citadels.

Sabriz Adoudel wrote:
You simply cannot flip PLEX with a ~3.7% broker fee paid on every buy order and every sell order.
You also cannot flip PLEX in a Citadel with no suppliers or customers. If the people stay at 4-4, the PLEX market will stay at 4-4 and the price will be what the price will be.

Remember that these Citadels are going to be largely inferior to NPC stations, at least at release. Jita 4-4 has had competition from NPC stations that are strictly superior to it for many, many years. Jita has a critical mass and inertia so great that it will take a titan's blow to shift it.

I don't think CCP should attempt to strike that blow, because they'll probably ruin the game in the process. I think they should give us the tools so that resourceful player organisations can strike it for them. That's excellent sandbox content, not massive nerfs from on high.

Sadly, it's going to take a long, long time for them to release the necessary tools, because that work is hard. They can make Citadels such a well produced, refined and feature rich creation that NPC stations become a legacy relic by comparison. With a carrot that sweet, the stick is really not needed.

Unfortunately, it's going to take far, far less time and effort for them to massively nerf NPC stations instead.







Inertia is indeed a huge factor. I've seen more than one person attempt to create a rival to an established microhub and the only success story I've seen was Stacmon - which was made real by EVE Uni's lowsec campus.

On contracts - I think there will be a lot more chat-channel organised private contracting of PLEX and possibly bulk stocks of other high volume items like trit or Interceptor hulls. Private contracts have no fees at present.

This will be a scammer's paradise, which I for one look forward to.

I still think it is far too drastic a change to take place all at once.

I support the New Order and CODE. alliance. www.minerbumping.com
Agondray
Avenger Mercenaries
VOID Intergalactic Forces
#40 - 2016-03-14 14:05:33 UTC
its another attempt to remove more isk from the system to hit all parties rich or poor because 2 constant problems exist through the years

1, CSM notes have listed numerous times of what can be done to this out the huge amount of isk in circulation rather its in someones wallet or listed up in the markets

2. Not enough chaos in the galaxy so they intervene to increase the chaos

What we need is a wallet/market wipe as the common economy complaints are there is far too much on the markets and far too in isk floating around since the main sources print isk

Most games have a NPC market which will remove the isk

our isk sinks are taxes (trade/npc corps/pi) some trade goods that are produced by NPCs, Skills, and various stocks of items which are usually undersold by players, Fees for owning star systems

if I missed anything please add to the list

"Sarcasm is the Recourse of a weak mind." -Dr. Smith