These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Intergalactic Summit

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

Sojourn

Author
Skyweir Kinnison
Doomheim
#381 - 2016-03-11 20:37:06 UTC
Aria Jenneth wrote:


As a side note, there have been attempts (not in my sect, but in others) to take the "martial" out of "martial art" entirely, to turn it into a pure from of spiritual practice, sort of a cross between meditation and dance. If I understand it right, the typical approach is to take the more mystical principles ascribed to the local martial arts and focus on those to exclusion. The resulting practice is a sort of spiritual health and well-being exercise, but if you speed it up it mostly turns back into a combat style.


It may interest you that several historians of Mannar balletic dance claim that certain styles had their origins in an ancient martial art, which evolved from a combat method to a stylised display of capability. These displays had the advantage of averting tribal conflict as the prowess of each side was demonstrated and bloodshed avoided. They then became precursors to competitive sporting events, and eventually an art form all of their own.

It all seems rather contrived as a theory to me, but there's some cave paintings that lend it some sort of credence.

Humanity has won its battle. Liberty now has a country.

Nauplius
Hoi Andrapodistai
#382 - 2016-03-11 22:40:30 UTC
Aria Jenneth wrote:


(The component was unique, as it turns out, and common to more than half the groups. It wasn't available on the open market at all; we had to compound our own. One of Nauplius's people is an overachieving little ****, whom I am going to skin if I ever find him.)


It would seem, Lady Jenneth, that your enemy, if he survived the breaching of the hanger, has been trashed.
Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#383 - 2016-03-11 23:00:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Aria Jenneth
Nauplius wrote:
Aria Jenneth wrote:


(The component was unique, as it turns out, and common to more than half the groups. It wasn't available on the open market at all; we had to compound our own. One of Nauplius's people is an overachieving little ****, whom I am going to skin if I ever find him.)


It would seem, Lady Jenneth, that your enemy, if he survived the breaching of the hanger, has been trashed.


Noted.

... I should mention that exactly what "trashed" means is maybe ambiguous. It's not usually like the capsuleers involved personally shuffle people into a recycling facility or something. More likely, they just entered an order that functionally meant "Get rid of them," and their station crew just sort of had everybody file out into the hallway and left them there.

Edit:

It seems I'm not the only one who concluded this is the most likely interpretation, Mr. Nauplius.

With a little luck, your slavers are in the hands of Amarrian authorities. Which, considering what you had them working on, means that the vitoxin you had them dose your captives with might not be all that tough a problem.

I wonder whether we'll ever get to know.
Nicoletta Mithra
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#384 - 2016-03-13 00:42:00 UTC  |  Edited by: Nicoletta Mithra
Aria Jenneth wrote:
Emerita, with very great respect, as seems to be usual in conversations between us you seem to want to draw bright lines and say, "Thus it is." Let me give you a few reasons why I might feel otherwise.

Well, I at least start with reasons and proceed towards the thus. I feel that is better than just noting that "martial arts" has an "original, destructive use", without giving justification nor reason for such an idea.

Aria Jenneth wrote:
Swordsmanship is something both Caldari and Achura tend to admire, even if it's a few centuries out of fashion as a practical combat method. (...) Common maxims of strategy in this area are that you should always be either cutting your enemy or about to cut your enemy, and that the surest way to lose your life is to try to save it.

Properly trained, fighters of this sort engage the enemy with little regard for their own lives. They think of themselves as already dead. Survival is a means to an end, not an end in itself.

Luckily, for me, I drew one on my bright lines right there: I said I can't speak for Achuran martial art forms, not even all Amarrian ones: And this surely implies that I meant the same for Caldari, Gallentean and Matari martial art forms. So, if neither Caldari nor Achuran martial art forms conform to what I said, this is something I have little problems with. It then only means that what I said might be of even greater import to you in understanding what the Directrix intends in giving you to this training. Even so, I've no idea, honestly, what the esteemed Templar is going to train you, as I said: I can't even speak for all forms of Amarrian martial arts.

That said, I don't see any conflict between what I said and the strategem that says "cut your enemy or be about to cut your enemy". Indeed, sometimes the surest way to loose your life is to "try to save it". To me, it seems to be a lesson about intuitions that are not in harmony with the art of defence: The first impulse to "save yourself" is in fencing and combat in general one that might help you avoid an immediate threat, yet opens you widely. Defence through threat is indeed a core principe. Yet, still, it is defence through threat.

All this doesn't yet mean that the fighter who is skilled in placing pressure on his opponent (Not all people you face in a fight are necessarily your enemies, I'd like to note: Here again you introduce quite a "bright line" yourself without making that clear - maybe it isn't even clear to you?) needs to have little regard for their own life. Quite the contrary, they still have to have at least as much regard for their own life to ensure that they actually present a threat t their opponent. Just madly striking at all times - I assume - isn't the idea here, but to do so in a manner that threatens the opponent. Else, the one striking would quickly present an opening which the opponent can exploit safely.

And this is even true for someone who puts little stake in his own survival. The one who's prepared to die while dispatching his opponent still must ensure to live up until that moment: And usually he does so for the sake of someone else's life or an ideal, without which life would be reduced to mere survival.

Survival, indeed, has no value in itself: It is a necessary means to achieve living, though. To live inturn is necessary to achieve a good life. So, even the fighter who doesn't survive the fight has to protect his life up to the point at which he realizes his goal, arrives at the aimed at end.


Aria Jenneth wrote:
You might think it strange, but this kind of philosophy is one I sympathize with a lot, and associate closely with myself. My predecessor feared death, and held her own existence dear. I wanted to be able to face unknown places and settings without fear, and to face my own strange existence without constant dread. It's this sort of perspective that inspired me. (It's inspired numberless Caldari and Achura for generations; it's a broadly-applicable approach to much of life.)

It's my own lack of concern for my existence that brought me to your door, the first time, and, later, to PY-RE's. It's gotten, well, a lot harder, as I've become more caught up in this world, though. There are things, and people, I value, now-- that I don't want to lose. This makes me care whether I live or die.

This world of ten thousand things, this world of illusion-- it really is terribly seductive. I expect I'll suffer for letting myself be drawn in like this, but ... if it means I get to be with people I care about, at least for a while, I guess I'm okay with that.

Your predecessor feared death so much, that she preferred mere survival to death, forsaking life. She, indeed, was in a state between life and death, a ghost in a way. Not by fate, but by choice, I'd claim. Thus it doesn't mean that if you want to differ from her that you need to love death above life: You are free to see the difference between mere survival and life and that sometimes death is to be choosen above mere survival, if life ceases to be a viable option. This still doesn't rule out to live your life!

If you are controlled by fear and constant dread, that isn't life: Human existence is reduce in their countenance to mere survival indeed. Yet, you seem pretty alive to me, so your choice to join PY-RE as well as SFRIM doesn't seem one prefering death to survival: It is more akin to me to a choice to free yourself from fear and dread and live.
Nicoletta Mithra
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#385 - 2016-03-13 00:43:11 UTC  |  Edited by: Nicoletta Mithra
Suffering doesn't follow from action or living, much less from achieving good life: He who lives the good life does the good deed without attachment to the result. Therefore, without being attached to the results of activities, one should act as a matter of duty, for by working without attachment one attains the Supreme.

If the ones you care about are taken from you, you suffer only because you don't realize that all is one within the Ultimate Reality, because you don't realize that nothing good is ever lost. To truely live means to win that state of mind that is Paradise - the realization of the Unity that is, but which humanity has seperated itself from in self-inflicted illusion, so that it can say "I" and "mine". This is the source of suffering: Seperation from the Supreme.
It is shown in the signs, it is said in the Scriptures.

Aria Jenneth wrote:
These arts are distinct from my own formal training; a well-adjusted monk should not live in fear of death, but she's not an assassin, either. Even my short-blade training, taken as martial technique, is meant to give a fighter a defense against swordsmen, not a path to insight through slaughter. It may seem strange, but it's these more self-defense-oriented techniques that I associate more with self-regard, and thus with outrage and actions full of hate.

As a side note, there have been attempts (not in my sect, but in others) to take the "martial" out of "martial art" entirely, to turn it into a pure from of spiritual practice, sort of a cross between meditation and dance. If I understand it right, the typical approach is to take the more mystical principles ascribed to the local martial arts and focus on those to exclusion. The resulting practice is a sort of spiritual health and well-being exercise, but if you speed it up it mostly turns back into a combat style.

As I claimed: You can't take the potential to hurt, nor the potential to preserve out of these practices entirely, as much as one might want to. They are inherent in our very existence. I'm not debating the possible merits of non-martial exercise here, there are plenty merits to those. And one can certainly arrive at a non-martial practice by "taming" a martial one. Such a practice then, though, looses the particular clearness of martial arts in teaching about the inherent potential to hurt and preserve in all of us, which allows for lucid reflection in which relation those stand in truth and then habituating ourself to realize these potentials accordingly and as they should.

Or such a practice might eshew all outward signs of being about conflict, due to focusing on the inward struggle entirely: But then it only seems to be cleared of those "martial" aspects, while only realizing them in a way we don't readily recognize by looking at it! This only shows that by setting our mind after our senses, we miss the important: The senses are like five horses of a chariot. Yet it is clear that the charioteer should be the one in charge, no? Else you will attach yourself to a world of ten thousand things, a world of illusion, a world as it seems to be, indeed.
Persephone Alleile
Tartarus Covert Operations
#386 - 2016-03-14 16:55:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Persephone Alleile
Quite an interesting conversation. I am fairly new to the IGS and it's refreshing to find others who are interested in discussing topics that go deeper than the surface level of our perceived reality.

Aria Jenneth wrote:
As a side note, there have been attempts (not in my sect, but in others) to take the "martial" out of "martial art" entirely, to turn it into a pure from of spiritual practice, sort of a cross between meditation and dance. If I understand it right, the typical approach is to take the more mystical principles ascribed to the local martial arts and focus on those to exclusion. The resulting practice is a sort of spiritual health and well-being exercise, but if you speed it up it mostly turns back into a combat style.


We have a practice among the Intaki that sounds a little like what you are describing here. It's known as ekayaat, which translates as "unity" or "union." It's a system of movements, postures and breath-work meant to strengthen the body and focus the mind. The name comes from the idea that regular practice is meant to lead one to a state of union between mind, body and spirit allowing the entity to function as a cohesive whole without being held back by internal struggles. Ekayaat is often practiced in combination with meditation, as it leads one to a mental state conducive to silent contemplation. In this way I agree with what Nicoletta Mithra has said about how practices like this change the focus of the struggle from external to internal. Most external struggles, in my experience, have roots within the psyche of the individual, so it makes sense to me to address these things at the source.

It may have developed from a form of martial art originally, but while the practice of ekayaat does develop core strength and endurance I feel like it would leave one woefully unprepared to face an opponent trained in hand-to-hand combat. A lot of the literature regarding ekayaat sounds like pseudo-science, especially when you have people discussing "the flow of spiritual energies" and the like but I think this comes down to the fact that this system was developed before we made contact with the Gallente and were still a pre-industrial society and before we had access to modern medical science.

The benefits of practice are quite real and demonstrable: The various movements and postures stimulate the lymphatic system, strengthening the immune system; The deep focus on breath-work helps to develop focus and also serves to increase oxygenation of the blood improving cognitive function; regular practice also helps to balance the endocrine system, reducing stress and increasing the production of certain neurotransmitters. All this to say that whether you approach these sorts of practice from a materialist or a spiritual point of view, there are benefits.

I haven't personally practiced ekayaat in some years, but this conversation is making me think I should take it up again. It was mandatory for schoolchildren on my homeworld but nowadays I spend most of my time in the pod.

Now, regarding the post that started this whole discussion, the fact that your renewed interest in the martial arts is unearthing connections to your old self is interesting to me, sometimes it seems as though the body remembers more than the mind. I think it's good that you are facing these old memories Ms. Jenneth. Hiding from one's past accomplishes little, but if you can learn to accept yourself for who you are . . . or who you were . . . it can only make you stronger by removing a potential source of suffering and internal conflict.
Elmund Egivand
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#387 - 2016-03-15 10:59:20 UTC
I know nothing about 'spiritual energies' whatsit's, despite our animistic beliefs.

However, it has been demonstrated that we can exert greater force by forcibly exhaling while throwing a punch. Also, we are encouraged to also twist the torso when throwing a punch. The mechanics of this was not explained to us cadets but I suspect that it had to do with the synchronicity of multiple muscle movement and momentum of force.

I think I will put this down for study. Mechanics is supposed to be my thing.

A Minmatar warship is like a rusting Beetle with 500 horsepower Cardillac engines in the rear, armour plating bolted to chassis and a M2 Browning stuck on top.

Valerie Valate
Church of The Crimson Saviour
#388 - 2016-03-15 17:47:45 UTC
If you want to know about martial art and all that.

Try Whackmaster Jack's Temple of Beating.

I think it's in Jin-Mei space somewhere.

Doctor V. Valate, Professor of Archaeology at Kaztropolis Imperial University.

Gosakumori Noh
Coven of One
#389 - 2016-03-15 18:06:33 UTC
Valerie Valate wrote:
Try Whackmaster Jack's Temple of Beating.


If I didn't know better, I'd think that was a new venture from none other than New Prophet Nauplius.

Come to think of it... I don't know better.
Maria Daphiti
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#390 - 2016-03-15 18:21:52 UTC
Gosakumori Noh wrote:
Valerie Valate wrote:
Try Whackmaster Jack's Temple of Beating.


If I didn't know better, I'd think that was a new venture from none other than New Prophet Nauplius.

Come to think of it... I don't know better.


Please.. don't give him ideas.
Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#391 - 2016-03-15 18:22:39 UTC
Gosakumori Noh wrote:
Valerie Valate wrote:
Try Whackmaster Jack's Temple of Beating.


If I didn't know better, I'd think that was a new venture from none other than New Prophet Nauplius.

Come to think of it... I don't know better.


Ms. Noh? Can we maybe just let him get his inspiration from his god?
Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#392 - 2016-03-20 18:40:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Aria Jenneth
Entry Thirty-Eight: Promises Made

Early this morning, at the PIE temple on Myyhera IV, I took an oath of service as a retainer to Lunarisse Marie Aspenstar Daphiti.

This isn't exactly an oath of fealty. Directrix Daphiti is not nobility, so vassal-dom wasn't really an option. Seen one way, it's an employment contract, terminable on one month's written notice. ... even if I can't really see myself giving that notice.

Seen in another, it's a binding pact, sealed in blood, requiring me to obey and protect her, with my life, if need be.

I've got a lot of reasons for doing this. Maybe I'll talk about the others, some day. For now, I'll just say this:

I don't really trust myself very far. I'm not my predecessor. I lack her pain, her hate, and her fear; knowing to some degree how I learned my knowledge and skills is a little different from having lived those events. We're maybe not so completely different, though.

In some ways, I'm probably even a darker kind of person than she was. Even though I knew, from the beginning, what being a capsuleer involved, I still chose to embrace it-- to serve my utility, even if it meant my hands would never be clean. I'm not risk-averse, so ... I kill, much too easily. In my short time in PY-RE, I accumulated maybe as many kills as she did in her entire career.

It's something I even enjoy. Not the killing, not death for its own sake, but-- if I like the feel of my talons sinking into a victim at hunt's end, is that really distinguishable?

Would I ever murder innocents, burn unhardened structures just to witness the beauty of the devastation I'd brought? I don't know. That's not clear to me. I think, if someone I took orders from told me to, I'd do it, though. I'd plant seeds of fire, and watch them bloom-- if not for my own sake, then for another's.

This kind of work will pick my soul to tatters. I can't trust my own judgment on this. I do trust the Directrix's, though. It's not that I think she's a sefrim or anything, even if I believed in things like that. But ...

Directrix, since I arrived on your doorstep last year, I've seen your decency, your kindness, your strength. I'm not much for great causes, or high ideals, but even if I can't believe in your empire, or your god, I can believe that.

Maybe I can't change the sort of being I am, even if I wanted to. Maybe I'll always be a little hawk, a Falcon, with talons stained in blood. I have some say in whom I allow to wield me, though.

Let me be the sword in your hand, the hawk on your wrist. Let your will be mine, my talons yours. Let my word bind me. And even should my soul be reduced to dust and cinders, I will hold it worthwhile.
Mizhara Del'thul
Kyn'aldrnari
#393 - 2016-03-20 18:48:44 UTC
Some need to serve something. Some are strong enough to stand on their own two feet. This is nothing to be ashamed of. I am just disappointed in the choice of what to serve, given the larger picture I know you can see. Ah well, if nothing else you might get personal satisfaction out of it, and it looks like that's the most important thing for you.
Utari Onzo
Escalated.
OnlyFleets.
#394 - 2016-03-20 19:23:32 UTC
You have chosen a wise leader to pledge yourself to. As one professional killer to another, I know your capabilities, your willingness. Hell, I'm more bloodstained then you and your predecessor combined, like the mace to your blade. But, you have chosen to be wielded by a noble individual. When she draws you from your sheathe, it will be for the right reasons.

Fly falcon, and let your talons serve her.

"Face the enemy as a solid wall For faith is your armor And through it, the enemy will find no breach Wrap your arms around the enemy For faith is your fire And with it, burn away his evil"

James Syagrius
Luminaire Sovereign Solutions
#395 - 2016-03-20 20:00:15 UTC  |  Edited by: James Syagrius
Aria Jenneth wrote:
Entry Thirty-Eight: Promises Made

Early this morning, at the PIE temple on Myyhera IV, I took an oath of service as a retainer to Lunarisse Marie Aspenstar Daphiti.
Congratulations Ms. Jenneth.

Politics aside, you have chosen a… worthy matron.
Skyweir Kinnison
Doomheim
#396 - 2016-03-20 20:05:54 UTC
I offer my felicitations on your choice.

I have not had the honour of meeting the Directrix, but others speak highly of her, so I trust your guidance is in good hands. Service can be most rewarding, but I hope you will never lose that questing and questioning spirit. Whatever the order, we each retain our own responsibility.

Humanity has won its battle. Liberty now has a country.

Satja Askariin
Adamantine Tactical Acquisitions
#397 - 2016-03-20 22:24:01 UTC
It was a joy to be witness when the oath was made. I only hope that we were able to provide our distinguished guests with the respect and service they deserved.

Good luck Miss Jenneth.
Nauplius
Hoi Andrapodistai
#398 - 2016-03-21 12:31:10 UTC
Aria Jenneth wrote:

Early this morning, at the PIE temple on Myyhera IV, I took an oath of service as a retainer to Lunarisse Marie Aspenstar Daphiti.

Can the blind lead the blind? Shall they not both fall into the ditch?
Che Biko
Alexylva Paradox
#399 - 2016-03-21 15:39:38 UTC
Dear Aria,

...when it comes to whom to be loyal to...you could do a lot worse. I think Lunarisse is like you say she is. Sometimes I wish I was more like her.
I just hope she sends out your talons to rescue some lives at least once in a while...I suspect the calls for help in the Amarr border systems are going awfully unanswered in my and DSTON's absence.

Peace,

-Ché
Aria Jenneth
Societas Imperialis Sceptri Coronaeque
Khimi Harar
#400 - 2016-03-29 18:08:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Aria Jenneth
Entry Thirty-Nine: Duelist

A duel against Nauplius, with him in his choice of frigates and me in a pack-hunter Kestrel, was a fight that I had basically no chance of winning.

A ship built for warfare tends to fare poorly in a duel. Formal dueling creates an artificial arena, with artificial rules that don't apply in war. Winning in that kind of setting requires different skills than winning a battle in earnest. You generally don't use the same fits. At the same time, I take enough pride in my integrity that if such rules are set, I won't violate or abuse them. So....

I don't duel. That's been kind of policy for a while, now.

When Nauplius challenged me to an immediate duel outside his home station, I accepted. Aside from pride, anger, possibly hate, and maybe a wish not to appear intimidated, I was curious what he'd do with it, how he'd approach it, how far he'd go. The answer was the obvious one: all the way. At least almost.

He used a duelist fit (or at least a brawling fit reasonably well-designed for dueling). In the wild, it would probably have taken two of my Kestrel to bring him down, and we might have lost one. He destroyed my ship with his armor at about half. He gave me a chance to run (that much was a little unexpected), which I didn't, so he podded me.

... and I promptly undocked with a Tormentor. (I share a home station with him now.) I might have felt a little bad about that except (1) he'd just executed me after the duel ended, making it pretty clear that the aftermath could be played to advantage and (2) he immediately attacked.

Buffer tank Tormentor (with a drone bay its silly pilot has forgotten exists) versus active armor tank (somewhat the worse for wear): pretty fair fight, really. We parted company with both of us essentially out of armor; I was a little surprised he didn't try to finish me off, since he was a little ahead. If we'd started even, I'm pretty sure I would have lost outright.

Sani Sabik seek and respect power, but they don't actually represent a workable alternative to any real civilization. As sophisticated as they might sometimes be, their philosophy is destabilizing. Nauplius in particular is cruel to a literally religious degree. In a career where basically everyone is a weapon of mass destruction, he stands out. He's taken my dreams as inspiration to create nightmares for others. Also, he has my corpse, even if I did more or less dare him to take it.

I have a lot of motivation to learn.

Nauplius is a duelist. He doesn't have many allies, so he's used to flying and fighting solo. This is him at his strongest.

I expect to lose a lot.

He'll be an excellent teacher.