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Yachts, yachts, yachts.

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epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#101 - 2016-03-12 20:38:45 UTC
Chesterfield Fancypantz wrote:
epicurus ataraxia wrote:
Jezza McWaffle wrote:
I mean you actually believe that yacht rolling or even t3 higgs (to a degree) is balanced is just, well absurd. There should not be a single ship in eve which cannot be caught 'reasonably', and by that I mean parking 6 capitals around the hole to cover the decloak positions.

There is no rock paper scissors, it would be like introducing phasers into the mix, there is no counter to yahcts thats the problem, and no getting yourself rolled out through stupidity is not a counter.

You honestly think its acceptable currently to connect to a bear hole, scan down its chain, find pvp, and then have to go home because they are yachting your connection? Honestly I should just seed you for believing that the act of doing that is completely valid form of gameplay.


Please read my posts, they are quite clear and I really feel that repeating all the points and counter points, and showing once again that both points have validity, and have reasoned arguments attached, re stating all that would be unfair to reasonable readers,

And I believe your example of trying to catch evasion fit ships, with 6 capitals is not even vaguely a sane action, and proves that you PERSONALLY have a failure in understanding of the concept of Rock Paper Scissors.

Try ships equipped to CATCH evasion fit ships, you cannot expect that DPS is always going to be the right response.
I am sure your colleagues would agree.

I have ALREADY pointed out there is an issue with Swarm rolling, that is worth looking into, and a sensible response will be to Look at that, not saying all evasion ships should be nerfed, because You personally are unwilling or incapable of making good ship choice decisions.

I have the Greatest respect For your Corporation, Your alliance, your teammates. Your corporation are one of the most capable and effective in the game.

They earn the respect of wormhole space, because they are good at what they do, and adapt to different conditions and regularly excel, you should have great pride in belonging to that. You are amongst the truly elite, amongst the best this game has created.

It is so dissapointing to see you so at odds with those principles.

You Should not be relying on evasion fit ships to be bad Pilots, you should be striving to be better.


Honestly. I personally rolled yachts through multiple established wormhole gatecamps. remote sensor boosted instalock svipuls and stuff. Its IMPOSSIBLE to catch a yacht right now. 2.8 second align time with a cloak means you CANNOT catch it, even if you decloak it immediately.

I do not disagree with the fact it is hard to catch, but there are ways to disrupt and neutralise, small numbers of Yachts.
However I cannot at this time see any counter to swarms, there needs serious thought there.

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE
epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#102 - 2016-03-12 20:42:59 UTC  |  Edited by: epicurus ataraxia
Chesterfield Fancypantz wrote:
epicurus ataraxia wrote:
Chesterfield Fancypantz wrote:
epicurus ataraxia wrote:
Chesterfield Fancypantz wrote:
MY POST


What a shame, It started off so reasonably, up to the final -- and then it became clear it was a stealth nerf evasion reply.
You must really hate Evasion fit ships it seems, and your final comments are contradited by your early ones.

We noticed.


It went from children must be allowed to play it is good for everyone, and they will grow into healthy adults. Into "Except for your children", they are annoying, to fix the issue we can cut off the legs of your son, and just the feet off your daughter, that'll make them easy to catch and punish, that's fair isn't it?



Honestly, I'm a big fan of the yachts and t3s the way they are now, but when I hear about what is going on in TDSINs home right now... they MUST be fixed.

TDSIN right now cannot do ANYTHING on their EU timezone because some douchebag just signs in 8 yachts and closes their static repeatedly. There is no way to counter it, no way to stop it.

The changes I proposed are slight modifications that any reasonable wormhole corp should be able to still handle. Yachts can be used to close holes in the chain reasonably well, and reasonably safely.

If it is a hostile hole, t3s can still be used albeit a bit more catchable because of increased cloak time.

I DONT agree with leaving them in their current versions, however I dont agree with a heavy handed approach right now either.



In retrospect we agree far more than we disagree, the events that are being reported in the TDSin system go far beyond, the reasonable use of any ship or tool, this is The swarm rolling I discussed that has the potential to be not just disruptive but totally destructive, It is effectively Griefing.

Like Griefing it is not the tool at fault, it is the use of it to create said griefing.

The use in the main, of any Evasion fit ship, is a rational and sensible counter to larger fleets making closing the hole either non sensible, or suicidal , and that results in no fun for anyone.

This is quite something else.
Twiddling with these ships, or downright nerfing them would be an excessive and destructive action, as it effects all space and all uses.

The dealing with this specific use, in this specific way, will it seem need to be undertaken.

Whilst the simplest choice would be to make it impossible to roll a hole against larger numbers, that would be both foolhardy, simplistic, and harmful.

But let us try to offer options to deal with this SPECIFIC EDGE CASE.

Some possibilities would be to in some way focus on swarm rolling.
One idea is to prevent multiple Higgs rigs active on the same grid, but it has been pointed out, that would affect miners.
One other is that more than three higgs ships passing a wormhole would destabilise the hole for a period.

I am sure, If we stay focused, and avoid the temptation to nerf everything to make killing everything easy, then sensible and intelligent people can come up with good ideas, to deal with this specific situation in a focused and surgical way.



Unfortunately, I dont agree with you. I think that the yachts losing interdiction means that they can still do their primary role without being heavily overpowered, and if there is bubbles on the field you can just use t3's.

I dont agree with proposals saying to remove interdiction from both as I feel it is extremely heavy handed and only benefits the loudest complainers who want to sit their massive fleets on a hole and quench any sort of content for a smaller group.


We are very close to the same position, I do not see any threat from two or three yachts, we should not expect to catch every bird.
And there is some fun trying to catch or disrupt them. In my eyes, they are giving it a good go at trying to keep playing.

Swarms however, quite a different story, we need to focus on that issue, so as not to get swamped in the " other way of thinking"

If you have any ideas of how the hole rolling of multiple Higgs rigged ships, could be disrupted, that would be very valuable.

Another option would be that if more than 4 higgs rigged ships, were to jump within 30 seconds, they would lose the use of all ship modules for one minute.

Or alternatively same conditions, but unable to warp for a period.

I wish I knew what was possible to be implemented within the code, with minimal impact and developer time that made the use of more than 4 Higgs rigged ships barely possible or at high risk in a very short time.

One would need to make it so large numbers of higgs rigged ships were rendered at high risk of destruction, or simply unable to ram their way enmasse through the hole.

Ideas Please.

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE
Chesterfield Fancypantz
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#103 - 2016-03-12 21:01:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Chesterfield Fancypantz
I think you're missing the forest for the trees.

I dont think swarm rolling is really the issue, because the issue is just how uncatchable the yachts are. people would just send through less yachts at once to avoid the issue and the problem is exactly the same only slower.

It is exactly like someone responded to the "dont let them fit bs prop mods" people would just send less yachts at once and still roll the hole in complete utter safety.

I dont agree with you that this is the problem, and I believe my suggestions are reasonable and a great step forward.
Narthe Raytei
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#104 - 2016-03-12 21:05:40 UTC
It is literally impossible to catch a Yacht without the pilot making an error, even living on top of the server with a heck ton of remote sensor boosters will never give you enough lock speed to beat the server ticks.

Also just to point out Epicurus, i don't think you actually understand the game of rock, paper, scissors. every option has a way of beating it. Nothing (sane) catches a yacht. nothing.
epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#105 - 2016-03-12 21:08:32 UTC
Chesterfield Fancypantz wrote:
I think you're missing the forest for the trees.

I dont think swarm rolling is really the issue, because the issue is just how uncatchable the yachts are. people would just send through less yachts at once to avoid the issue and the problem is exactly the same only slower.

It is exactly like someone responded to the "dont let them fit bs prop mods" people would just send less yachts at once and still roll the hole in complete utter safety.

I dont agree with you that this is the problem, and I believe my suggestions are reasonable and a great step forward.


Removing nullification from the yacht, makes the yacht pointless as a hole roller.
Just bubble and the tool, is useless against a large hostile group on ones static.
Making T3 even less agile, the same applies.

We both seemed to agree, that the swarming of holes, was apparently a major problem, like tdsin's current issues.
I Would like to find, and suggest, to CCP a means of preventing grief rolling.

Not to make it so no one has a counter to a hostile fleet on ones hole and no counter for a small group other than log off.

Is that not a valid goal?

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE
Chesterfield Fancypantz
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#106 - 2016-03-12 21:12:19 UTC
epicurus ataraxia wrote:
Chesterfield Fancypantz wrote:
I think you're missing the forest for the trees.

I dont think swarm rolling is really the issue, because the issue is just how uncatchable the yachts are. people would just send through less yachts at once to avoid the issue and the problem is exactly the same only slower.

It is exactly like someone responded to the "dont let them fit bs prop mods" people would just send less yachts at once and still roll the hole in complete utter safety.

I dont agree with you that this is the problem, and I believe my suggestions are reasonable and a great step forward.


Removing nullification from the yacht, makes the yacht pointless as a hole roller.
Just bubble and the tool, is useless against a large hostile group on ones static.
Making T3 even less agile, the same applies.

We both seemed to agree, that the swarming of holes, was apparently a major problem, like tdsin's current issues.
I Would like to find, and suggest, to CCP a means of preventing grief rolling.

Not to make it so no one has a counter to a hostile fleet on ones hole and no counter for a small group other than log off.

Is that not a valid goal?



The yacht being able to be caught in the bubble means that it cannot be used to roll a hostile hole off yes, but that is the crux of the issue.

Those people would be forced to train into a t3 in order to roll a hostile hole which would be a comprimise between the low sp investment of the roller of a yacht, and still having the ability to roll a hostile hole.

The align time increase could be subtle enough to just give a little extra time, and would give CCP a tool to adjust it to where it feels just right without being heavy handed. Both sides would get a compromise. Defender still has the ability to roll, and the aggressor still has a chance to catch and decloak a juicy prize.
Narthe Raytei
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#107 - 2016-03-12 21:12:45 UTC
epicurus ataraxia wrote:
Removing nullification from the yacht, makes the yacht pointless as a hole roller.


It's not meant to be a roller, it was intended to be a literal taxi used for travel
Chesterfield Fancypantz
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#108 - 2016-03-12 21:14:23 UTC
Narthe Raytei wrote:
epicurus ataraxia wrote:
Removing nullification from the yacht, makes the yacht pointless as a hole roller.


It's not meant to be a roller, it was intended to be a literal taxi used for travel



While I agree, I think that the yacht should still be able to be used as a roll in "safe" environments.

You wouldnt get into them to roll a hole in an enemys face, but if you got caught it wouldnt be a OMG I LOST A 400m rolling battleship, instead itd be a chuckle of "YACHTS FIRED".
epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#109 - 2016-03-12 21:18:32 UTC  |  Edited by: epicurus ataraxia
Narthe Raytei wrote:
It is literally impossible to catch a Yacht without the pilot making an error, even living on top of the server with a heck ton of remote sensor boosters will never give you enough lock speed to beat the server ticks.

Also just to point out Epicurus, i don't think you actually understand the game of rock, paper, scissors. every option has a way of beating it. Nothing (sane) catches a yacht. nothing.


Yachts die all the time, there are Large numbers of killmails that attest to that. I totally agree, they are hard, and rolling fits are unable to fit for fast align evasion. Hard, But they are not impossible.

But if you have 8 coming through the hole at once, you have absolutely no way of stopping them whatsoever.
That is a serious issue, and I understand that is causing some real problems.

We should be seriously trying to find a means of dealing with multiple higgs yachts, they almost border on Griefing, or maybe even step over it.

Let's together try to find a means of dealing with that edge case, and it is an extreme edge case, without destroying reasonable uses for those who gain the means to continue playing when facing (for them) impossible odds.

I stress, We have never used them, as wormholes are great generators of good fights, and that would be a great shame for us, but there are thos who need a tool to balance their small numbers, and inexperience.

Let us all work together,reasonably, to find a solution, that is both in balance and fair to all groups, and eliminate the Griefing possibilities.

Even if people believe, that no yacht should have the current benefits, can we focus on the point I believe we all agree on, that no ship or fit, should be able to do what is apparently happening to TDSin, and try to make sure that we can suggest reasonable defences or action against that.

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE
Narthe Raytei
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#110 - 2016-03-12 21:19:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Narthe Raytei
@chesire I would welcome its continued use as a cheap rolling ship, as long as it wasn't impossible to catch, and i think at this point this thread has changed from "this sounds like a good fix" to "RAWR WHAI R U SO DUMB"

@Epicurus You don't seem to understand that even a single yacht is impossible to catch without pilot error. there is no reasonable way to catch a yacht, even in an inty with a million sebos and rem sebos. and before you say anything about the allign time, they can still fit a cloak, making them IMPOSSIBLE to catch.
Winthorp
#111 - 2016-03-12 21:21:37 UTC
epicurus ataraxia wrote:
blah blah blah no my yatchs be nerfed man blah blah blah.


Seriously stop with this swarm bullshit you are carrying on with, even one of them is OP.

Go back to BS rolling son.
epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#112 - 2016-03-12 21:26:07 UTC
Winthorp wrote:
epicurus ataraxia wrote:
blah blah blah no my yatchs be nerfed man blah blah blah.


Seriously stop with this swarm bullshit you are carrying on with, even one of them is OP.

Go back to BS rolling son.


Winthrop, I thought I made it clear, that we would not use these because it would lead to fewer fights for us.
I would hate to see LOclass wh space lose any more people because a valuable tool was removed from small or inexperienced groups.

After all how much fun is there when a couple of people face a wolfpack on their static? Logoff or go home, is not a choice that will keep them in wormhole space, but you know I have said this already.

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE
Chesterfield Fancypantz
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#113 - 2016-03-12 21:36:14 UTC
Narthe Raytei wrote:
@chesire I would welcome its continued use as a cheap rolling ship, as long as it wasn't impossible to catch, and i think at this point this thread has changed from "this sounds like a good fix" to "RAWR WHAI R U SO DUMB"

@Epicurus You don't seem to understand that even a single yacht is impossible to catch without pilot error. there is no reasonable way to catch a yacht, even in an inty with a million sebos and rem sebos. and before you say anything about the allign time, they can still fit a cloak, making them IMPOSSIBLE to catch.



I agree with you 100%.

I feel that removing its bubble interdiction while a signifigant nerf, would not be as immense as some of the proposals here.

A lot of the major people pushing for t3s and yachts to be able to not cloak and bubble interdict are blessed with a massive fleet that means that most of the time they can roll in impunity regardless of who they are connected too.

We need to be thinking of both sides of the coin and that is why is implore CCP to be consistant with how they have applied changes with such a wide reaching impact and take small steps.

A slight increase in agility and removal of interdiction nullification from the yacht hull specifically is both impactful and light handed.
epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#114 - 2016-03-12 21:36:27 UTC
Narthe Raytei wrote:
@chesire I would welcome its continued use as a cheap rolling ship, as long as it wasn't impossible to catch, and i think at this point this thread has changed from "this sounds like a good fix" to "RAWR WHAI R U SO DUMB"

@Epicurus You don't seem to understand that even a single yacht is impossible to catch without pilot error. there is no reasonable way to catch a yacht, even in an inty with a million sebos and rem sebos. and before you say anything about the allign time, they can still fit a cloak, making them IMPOSSIBLE to catch.


Singles, are catchable, it happens all the time, but it does need specialist fleets, such as exist in Lowsec and null.
Admittedly they are very hard to do so, we have not caught one yet, but we have not seen that many.
They appear on killboards regularly, and some with better align fits than a holeroller can fit.

There is however, absolutely no way of stopping large numbers closing the hole, Even if we DID catch one it would be meaningless, and they would just carry on.

Should that not be where we should be focusing? Rather than nerfing them in all space, and all uses, which still would not solve the issues caused by this new Swarm technique?

(Some seem to dislike that phrase) rename it if you wish, but it seems appropriate.

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE
Chesterfield Fancypantz
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#115 - 2016-03-12 21:38:12 UTC
epicurus ataraxia wrote:
Winthorp wrote:
epicurus ataraxia wrote:
blah blah blah no my yatchs be nerfed man blah blah blah.


Seriously stop with this swarm bullshit you are carrying on with, even one of them is OP.

Go back to BS rolling son.


Winthrop, I thought I made it clear, that we would not use these because it would lead to fewer fights for us.
I would hate to see LOclass wh space lose any more people because a valuable tool was removed from small or inexperienced groups.

After all how much fun is there when a couple of people face a wolfpack on their static? Logoff or go home, is not a choice that will keep them in wormhole space, but you know I have said this already.


In this situation you would get into your t3 rollers, and start making passes on your static.

They have a chance to decloak you, but most of the time you would get out fine. If the enemy REALLY wants to hold you out, they could stack a major fleet on your hole and then TBH they should rightfully be able to prevent you from rolling with a signifigant amount of effort.

My issues with this discussion is that it really seems like groups want to be able to prevent a group from rolling with a simple handful of ships on the static which is insane. I would agree that if a group wants to sit a 30 man fleet on your static, it should be VERY difficult to roll them off. albeit not impossible.
Chesterfield Fancypantz
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#116 - 2016-03-12 21:39:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Chesterfield Fancypantz
epicurus ataraxia wrote:
Narthe Raytei wrote:
@chesire I would welcome its continued use as a cheap rolling ship, as long as it wasn't impossible to catch, and i think at this point this thread has changed from "this sounds like a good fix" to "RAWR WHAI R U SO DUMB"

@Epicurus You don't seem to understand that even a single yacht is impossible to catch without pilot error. there is no reasonable way to catch a yacht, even in an inty with a million sebos and rem sebos. and before you say anything about the allign time, they can still fit a cloak, making them IMPOSSIBLE to catch.


Singles, are catchable, it happens all the time, but it does need specialist fleets, such as exist in Lowsec and null.
Admittedly they are very hard to do so, we have not caught one yet, but we have not seen that many.
They appear on killboards regularly, and some with better align fits than a holeroller can fit.

There is however, absolutely no way of stopping large numbers closing the hole, Even if we DID catch one it would be meaningless, and they would just carry on.

Should that not be where we should be focusing? Rather than nerfing them in all space, and all uses, which still would not solve the issues caused by this new Swarm technique?

(Some seem to dislike that phrase) rename it if you wish, but it seems appropriate.



Honestly, ive been using yachts for over a year now.

I've lost 2.

One I dc'd and I got caught on the other side of the wormhole.

The other our ts3 died and I alt tabbed from an empty hole to alt tab back to an empty pod.

Both of which are "user error".

Read my lips. yachts are UNCATCHABLE in their current iteration. The only thing you can do is try to roll them out by ******* with mass. I dont think that should be the only option.

Also, frankly I have no problem with mass rolling a hole. Speed is an important tool for a smaller group. If i can mobilize organize and move a fleet of ships to the hole before the enemy has a chance to get a blockade on it, that is my advantage and I dont think it should be nerfed.
epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#117 - 2016-03-12 21:41:05 UTC  |  Edited by: epicurus ataraxia
Chesterfield Fancypantz wrote:
Narthe Raytei wrote:
@chesire I would welcome its continued use as a cheap rolling ship, as long as it wasn't impossible to catch, and i think at this point this thread has changed from "this sounds like a good fix" to "RAWR WHAI R U SO DUMB"

@Epicurus You don't seem to understand that even a single yacht is impossible to catch without pilot error. there is no reasonable way to catch a yacht, even in an inty with a million sebos and rem sebos. and before you say anything about the allign time, they can still fit a cloak, making them IMPOSSIBLE to catch.



I agree with you 100%.

I feel that removing its bubble interdiction while a signifigant nerf, would not be as immense as some of the proposals here.

A lot of the major people pushing for t3s and yachts to be able to not cloak and bubble interdict are blessed with a massive fleet that means that most of the time they can roll in impunity regardless of who they are connected too.

We need to be thinking of both sides of the coin and that is why is implore CCP to be consistant with how they have applied changes with such a wide reaching impact and take small steps.

A slight increase in agility and removal of interdiction nullification from the yacht hull specifically is both impactful and light handed.

The problem is if your suggested changes are applied, although it removes reasonable uses, in LOclass WH space, It does not solve the problem.

When using swarms (size of which depends on the hole) the hole can be shut, before a defense/blocking fleet can be set up. Or even warped to the hole!
So agility, nullification, are completely irrelevant. They have no one to avoid.

This would not help TDsin to counter the griefing they are reported to be suffering.

The only way to solve that issue is to address that SPECIFIC issue.

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE
Chesterfield Fancypantz
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#118 - 2016-03-12 21:41:54 UTC  |  Edited by: Chesterfield Fancypantz
epicurus ataraxia wrote:
Chesterfield Fancypantz wrote:
Narthe Raytei wrote:
@chesire I would welcome its continued use as a cheap rolling ship, as long as it wasn't impossible to catch, and i think at this point this thread has changed from "this sounds like a good fix" to "RAWR WHAI R U SO DUMB"

@Epicurus You don't seem to understand that even a single yacht is impossible to catch without pilot error. there is no reasonable way to catch a yacht, even in an inty with a million sebos and rem sebos. and before you say anything about the allign time, they can still fit a cloak, making them IMPOSSIBLE to catch.



I agree with you 100%.

I feel that removing its bubble interdiction while a signifigant nerf, would not be as immense as some of the proposals here.

A lot of the major people pushing for t3s and yachts to be able to not cloak and bubble interdict are blessed with a massive fleet that means that most of the time they can roll in impunity regardless of who they are connected too.

We need to be thinking of both sides of the coin and that is why is implore CCP to be consistant with how they have applied changes with such a wide reaching impact and take small steps.

A slight increase in agility and removal of interdiction nullification from the yacht hull specifically is both impactful and light handed.

The problem is if your suggested changes are applied, although it removes reasonable uses, in LOclass WH space, It does not solve the problem.

When using swarms (size of which depends on the hole) the hole can be shut, before a defense/blocking fleet can be set up.
So agility, nullification, are completely irrelevant. They have no one to avoid.

This would not help TDsin to counter the griefing they are reported to be suffering.

The only way to solve that issue is to address that SPECIFIC issue.



My changes would absolutely stop TDSIN's problem.

They would scan a hole, drop a HIC on it, then laugh as the yachts hit the bubble.

Even if they made it through to the other side and closed it, they would die on the inside of the hole because they are trapped in the bubble.
epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#119 - 2016-03-12 21:46:05 UTC  |  Edited by: epicurus ataraxia
Chesterfield Fancypantz wrote:
epicurus ataraxia wrote:
Chesterfield Fancypantz wrote:
Narthe Raytei wrote:
@chesire I would welcome its continued use as a cheap rolling ship, as long as it wasn't impossible to catch, and i think at this point this thread has changed from "this sounds like a good fix" to "RAWR WHAI R U SO DUMB"

@Epicurus You don't seem to understand that even a single yacht is impossible to catch without pilot error. there is no reasonable way to catch a yacht, even in an inty with a million sebos and rem sebos. and before you say anything about the allign time, they can still fit a cloak, making them IMPOSSIBLE to catch.



I agree with you 100%.

I feel that removing its bubble interdiction while a signifigant nerf, would not be as immense as some of the proposals here.

A lot of the major people pushing for t3s and yachts to be able to not cloak and bubble interdict are blessed with a massive fleet that means that most of the time they can roll in impunity regardless of who they are connected too.

We need to be thinking of both sides of the coin and that is why is implore CCP to be consistant with how they have applied changes with such a wide reaching impact and take small steps.

A slight increase in agility and removal of interdiction nullification from the yacht hull specifically is both impactful and light handed.

The problem is if your suggested changes are applied, although it removes reasonable uses, in LOclass WH space, It does not solve the problem.

When using swarms (size of which depends on the hole) the hole can be shut, before a defense/blocking fleet can be set up.
So agility, nullification, are completely irrelevant. They have no one to avoid.

This would not help TDsin to counter the griefing they are reported to be suffering.

The only way to solve that issue is to address that SPECIFIC issue.



My changes would absolutely stop TDSIN's problem.

They would scan a hole, drop a HIC on it, then laugh as the yachts hit the bubble.

Even if they made it through to the other side and closed it, they would die on the inside of the hole because they are trapped in the bubble.

Ten seconds later, the counter to that is warp from a safe, and come in under cloak.
The problem we have, is the pandoras box has been opened, whatever we do, with things as they stand, will not work. Remove nullification with a higgs on the yacht, just bring more, and don't fit higgs..
Now this f*ckwittery, has been discovered, jumping large amounts of small ships, through a hole, will continue, unless that is blocked somehow.

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE
Chesterfield Fancypantz
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#120 - 2016-03-12 21:47:56 UTC
epicurus ataraxia wrote:
Chesterfield Fancypantz wrote:
epicurus ataraxia wrote:
Chesterfield Fancypantz wrote:
Narthe Raytei wrote:
@chesire I would welcome its continued use as a cheap rolling ship, as long as it wasn't impossible to catch, and i think at this point this thread has changed from "this sounds like a good fix" to "RAWR WHAI R U SO DUMB"

@Epicurus You don't seem to understand that even a single yacht is impossible to catch without pilot error. there is no reasonable way to catch a yacht, even in an inty with a million sebos and rem sebos. and before you say anything about the allign time, they can still fit a cloak, making them IMPOSSIBLE to catch.



I agree with you 100%.

I feel that removing its bubble interdiction while a signifigant nerf, would not be as immense as some of the proposals here.

A lot of the major people pushing for t3s and yachts to be able to not cloak and bubble interdict are blessed with a massive fleet that means that most of the time they can roll in impunity regardless of who they are connected too.

We need to be thinking of both sides of the coin and that is why is implore CCP to be consistant with how they have applied changes with such a wide reaching impact and take small steps.

A slight increase in agility and removal of interdiction nullification from the yacht hull specifically is both impactful and light handed.

The problem is if your suggested changes are applied, although it removes reasonable uses, in LOclass WH space, It does not solve the problem.

When using swarms (size of which depends on the hole) the hole can be shut, before a defense/blocking fleet can be set up.
So agility, nullification, are completely irrelevant. They have no one to avoid.

This would not help TDsin to counter the griefing they are reported to be suffering.

The only way to solve that issue is to address that SPECIFIC issue.



My changes would absolutely stop TDSIN's problem.

They would scan a hole, drop a HIC on it, then laugh as the yachts hit the bubble.

Even if they made it through to the other side and closed it, they would die on the inside of the hole because they are trapped in the bubble.


The problem we have, is the pandoras box has been opened, whatever we do, with things as they stand, will not work. Remove nullification with a higgs on the yacht, just bring more, and don't fit higgs..
Now this f*ckwittery, has been discovered, jumping large amounts of small ships, through a hole, will continue, unless that is blocked somehow.


My proposal was a hard removal of nullification from yachts. has nothing to do with higgs.