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Project Discovery - March Update feedback thread

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Author
Ji Enderas
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#61 - 2016-03-10 15:13:00 UTC
Who decides what's right and what's wrong? Community "popular answer" (maybe processed by some statistical methods) or HPA's scientists?

I've got and interesting sample (100069389):

green spectrum:
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/4262011/2016.03.10.14.36.05.png
Here we can expect nucleoplasm. And most of users do so.

But then I looked at the blue spectrum:
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/4262011/2016.03.10.14.36.08.png
And we can't see a lot of holes. So - no holes = no overlapping.

My two questions:
- Which answer is right here?
- Will my accuracy drop if I'm not "within the crowd"?
HPA Dichroic
H P A
C C P Alliance
#62 - 2016-03-10 15:39:19 UTC
Ji Enderas wrote:
Who decides what's right and what's wrong? Community "popular answer" (maybe processed by some statistical methods) or HPA's scientists?

I've got and interesting sample (100069389):

green spectrum:
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/4262011/2016.03.10.14.36.05.png
Here we can expect nucleoplasm. And most of users do so.

But then I looked at the blue spectrum:
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/4262011/2016.03.10.14.36.08.png
And we can't see a lot of holes. So - no holes = no overlapping.

My two questions:
- Which answer is right here?
- Will my accuracy drop if I'm not "within the crowd"?



The correct answer here is nucleoplasm (and vesicles which you got).

We use over 20 cell types and in some the nucleoli are more visible than others in the blue channel. Basically if the green is throughout the nucleus but got big holes in then it's nucleoplasm. The granular cases are harder where you can't make out the holes quite as easily.
Circumstantial Evidence
#63 - 2016-03-11 03:04:08 UTC
Rainboq Spencer wrote:
CCP Wonderboy wrote:
Rainboq Spencer wrote:
It'd be nice to have a way to mark a sample as being out of focus, I've had a few there were impossible to decipher because the sample was completely out of focus it all became a giant haze.
Use the "Abnormal Sample" checkbox :)
Will do :) Maybe have that in a tool tip for the button?
Agree, it needs a tooltip. I clicked the ? in lower left hoping to find out about the checkbox, which restarts the directed help/tutorial process. The purpose of the "abnormal sample" checkbox isn't mentioned in the help sequence.

It should be made clear how to skip the tutorial, if one has completed it before. Closing and reopening the app seems to do it, a new sample appears.

Further, each help text popup should be made available separately (tooltip or ? button) on demand, without having to restart the directed help sequence.

Also check out this critique / room for improvement, on Reddit.
Lasse R Farnsworth
Blue Republic
RvB - BLUE Republic
#64 - 2016-03-11 07:38:07 UTC
After spending to much time with pd here another feedback:
Right now PD feels like trying to learn something while somebody gives you a sweet or a hit in the face at random intervals. Not ot good for learning, because the negative feedback from making a error and the positive reinforcment from doing my job good is disconected from my actions. I would suggest adding a
"I want feedback button" under tha abnormal sampel box.
It woul pop up that sampel as soon as a consens is reached again and I would have to doo it again (without isk and AK and exp of course) .. so I would have the chance to learn from hard sampels because I could see what the most people think out of that hard chase.
Also could HPA see were people are unsure and maek a turorila based on the hard chases.
Greetings Lasse
HPA Illuminator
H P A
C C P Alliance
#65 - 2016-03-11 13:07:56 UTC  |  Edited by: HPA Illuminator
Ji Enderas wrote:
Who decides what's right and what's wrong? Community "popular answer" (maybe processed by some statistical methods) or HPA's scientists?

I've got and interesting sample (100069389):

green spectrum:
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/4262011/2016.03.10.14.36.05.png
Here we can expect nucleoplasm. And most of users do so.

But then I looked at the blue spectrum:
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/4262011/2016.03.10.14.36.08.png
And we can't see a lot of holes. So - no holes = no overlapping.

My two questions:
- Which answer is right here?
- Will my accuracy drop if I'm not "within the crowd"?


Nucleoplasm is correct. For some cell types, for some reason, the nucleoli holes won't show in blue. But when you have these obvious cases you should absolutely go for nucleoplasm anyway.

EDIT: Sorry for not noticing HPA_Dichroic had already answered ^^. Also, there's a thread for challenging ex: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=472862&find=unread
HPA Illuminator
H P A
C C P Alliance
#66 - 2016-03-11 13:10:08 UTC
Lasse R Farnsworth wrote:
After spending to much time with pd here another feedback:
Right now PD feels like trying to learn something while somebody gives you a sweet or a hit in the face at random intervals. Not ot good for learning, because the negative feedback from making a error and the positive reinforcment from doing my job good is disconected from my actions. I would suggest adding a
"I want feedback button" under tha abnormal sampel box.
It woul pop up that sampel as soon as a consens is reached again and I would have to doo it again (without isk and AK and exp of course) .. so I would have the chance to learn from hard sampels because I could see what the most people think out of that hard chase.
Also could HPA see were people are unsure and maek a turorila based on the hard chases.
Greetings Lasse


Agree we should make a better tutorial, will talk to the others.

Just by playing myself I would say golgi/mitochondria is difficult for you to distinguish between, and also MTOC/aggresome. Maybe we should just have a look at some images where there's no consensus at all, as well. (My colleague made a quick walkthrough, might help some? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TrqCWg0cZSk&feature=youtu.be).
HPA Illuminator
H P A
C C P Alliance
#67 - 2016-03-11 13:18:57 UTC
Konstantin Reshetnikov wrote:
I just came across a strange sample and wasn't entirely sure what to mark it as.
Sample and results
What exactly is this and how should it have been marked?


Great that you marked is as abnormal! (It should be removed)

As for the staining, there doesn't seem to be a consensus yet. I would probably go for vesicles + cell to cell variation, but would consider negative as well as the staining is really weak.

See https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=472862&find=unread as well!
Lasse R Farnsworth
Blue Republic
RvB - BLUE Republic
#68 - 2016-03-11 14:27:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Lasse R Farnsworth
HPA Illuminator wrote:
Lasse R Farnsworth wrote:
After spending to much time with pd here another feedback:
Right now PD feels like trying to learn something while somebody gives you a sweet or a hit in the face at random intervals. Not ot good for learning, because the negative feedback from making a error and the positive reinforcment from doing my job good is disconected from my actions. I would suggest adding a
"I want feedback button" under tha abnormal sampel box.
It woul pop up that sampel as soon as a consens is reached again and I would have to doo it again (without isk and AK and exp of course) .. so I would have the chance to learn from hard sampels because I could see what the most people think out of that hard chase.
Also could HPA see were people are unsure and maek a turorila based on the hard chases.
Greetings Lasse


Agree we should make a better tutorial, will talk to the others.

Just by playing myself I would say golgi/mitochondria is difficult for you to distinguish between, and also MTOC/aggresome. Maybe we should just have a look at some images where there's no consensus at all, as well. (My colleague made a quick walkthrough, might help some? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TrqCWg0cZSk&feature=youtu.be).



Because the DDOs stuff again the post:
The problem is that the training effect is 0 if your feedback is disconected with the action. You could replace the accuracy with a random number generator and it would be the same feeling.

Edit 2: Also your "calibration" sampels are annoying : http://imgur.com/EhMH5Xa Ok one answer of me is wron .. I get it .. but I see that not every cell has the same look .. for me this is a variation ... but I'm now punished for that "added value information"
Yadaryon Vondawn
Vicanthya
#69 - 2016-03-11 15:01:58 UTC
By request of the HPA guys over at twitter here is a recording of me playing Project Discovery. In the video I explain why I make the choices I make. I hope it gives you guys a frame of reference when doing Project Discovery.

How to classify samples
Zepheros Naeonis
TinklePee
#70 - 2016-03-12 06:57:52 UTC
Konstantin Reshetnikov wrote:
I just came across a strange sample and wasn't entirely sure what to mark it as.
Sample and results
What exactly is this and how should it have been marked?

Exaclty like it was, Abnormal and then Unidentifable. No reason in trying to classify a broken image.
Circumstantial Evidence
#71 - 2016-03-12 17:03:52 UTC
Feature request: display PD icon in station service panel in SoE stations.
Good for Immersion, since PD is a special SoE activity.

Feature request: "AK" LP icon in station service panel in SoE stations.
This would bring up the standard LP UI, but filtered to show only AK items.

Depending on how the standard LP items list is configured or sorted, players with zero SoE LP may not see the AK redemption items right away.

HPA Illuminator
H P A
C C P Alliance
#72 - 2016-03-12 18:19:06 UTC
Seems to be an issue that AK are lost when PD crashes just when reaching a new lvl (some ppl in the chat mentioned loosing 10-20k AK). Possible to calculate theoretical AK for a player based on lvl and restore?
Imiarr Timshae
Funny Men In Funny Hats
#73 - 2016-03-12 18:23:02 UTC
You can't zoom in on the very edges of the sample. Sometimes this is important when you've only got 5 cells on screen and one is right at the edge, and you can't zoom at it.
Imiarr Timshae
Funny Men In Funny Hats
#74 - 2016-03-12 18:51:46 UTC
Oh also this :

Would you consider talking to CCP about the potential for a bonus on the Nestor (A Sisters of Eve "Science" themed battleship) which increases Project Discovery rewards? +5% XP and ISK, or 10% or whatever CCP feels is appropriate.

These vessels lack a strong role - they are good at several different things, but they really lack a role as a "science" vessel. Having this bonus would be very lore-relevant, and allow those of us who want to really aid Project Discovery to be able to spend out for the ships to earn extra for the risks we take in flying them. A "flagship" for Project Discovery.

Alternatively, rather than a bonus just for being in a nestor (in space) CCP could consider a remote assistance module (Spatial Research Assistance Module? SRAM?), which can be activated only by a nestor, which provides research bonuses for the ship recieving the effect, allowing the Nestor piloted by a philanthropic "Citizen scientist" to improve the Project Discovery rewards for a group of other players.

This would mean "science fleet" would become a thing - these pilots could travel around together doing any number of activities, enjoying the bonuses provided by the Nestor science flagship.

Further to this (depending on what people think of this idea), Project Discovery/The Nestor could be coded to provide a selection of bonuses for different things at different times.

For example, log into Eve, boot Project Discovery and there is a tab which you can click which drops down a box which reads:

"Enhance your scientific endeavours by having a Nestor activate a SRAM on your vessel while using Project Discovery, +5% ISK and XP rewards."

"Obtain further bonuses by being in the presence of certain spatial anomalies to enhance research activities"

Be with proximity of X type of star. (Changes periodically) +5% Orbit a x-type planet. (Changes periodically) +5% Be in wormhole space. (+10%) Be in the locality of an Ice Belt (+5%)

And have it so these change periodically so there are only a few active at any time, meaning this research fleet would move around to obtain slightly better results at Project Discovery.

This would give "scientists" a real role within the game, not just as "Docked and clicking Project Discovery every minute" but allow those of us equipped with Nestors and the skills to use them the ability to organise and travel with fleets of citizen scientists - a dynamic, engaging, activity which also induces RISK (have to be undocked, have to move around, have to find certain things in space) which CCP loves.

I hope you like the idea! :)
Circumstantial Evidence
#75 - 2016-03-12 20:27:18 UTC
Imiarr Timshae wrote:
Oh also this : Would you consider talking to CCP about the potential for a bonus on the Nestor (A Sisters of Eve "Science" themed battleship) which increases Project Discovery rewards? +5% XP and ISK, or 10% or whatever CCP feels is appropriate.
This is interesting... "doing science" in space+ships, lol. IF it was adopted, i'd like to see that bonus idea scaled from Astero up to Nestor (5% max), so everyone could get a little extra, depending on their spaceship budget. But... I think the focus of PD is / should be on "science for everyone / anywhere."
Imiarr Timshae
Funny Men In Funny Hats
#76 - 2016-03-12 21:13:47 UTC
Circumstantial Evidence wrote:
Imiarr Timshae wrote:
Oh also this : Would you consider talking to CCP about the potential for a bonus on the Nestor (A Sisters of Eve "Science" themed battleship) which increases Project Discovery rewards? +5% XP and ISK, or 10% or whatever CCP feels is appropriate.
This is interesting... "doing science" in space+ships, lol. IF it was adopted, i'd like to see that bonus idea scaled from Astero up to Nestor (5% max), so everyone could get a little extra, depending on their spaceship budget. But... I think the focus of PD is / should be on "science for everyone / anywhere."


I agree, but why not add an activity which can be pursued by those who are interested? If it isn't required, doesn't give bonuses that obsolete standard play, all it adds is a positive element to it for those who want to RP or engage with it in a more meaningful ingame way.

In my opinion it integrates it into Eve better. Currently we have a window that can be opened anywhere, and doesn't interact with the game in any way at all except ISK rewards. Having the option of some interaction with "spaceships online" can't harm the interest factor of PD.
Shaani Valkyr
Skjaldmo Ragnarok
#77 - 2016-03-12 22:56:12 UTC
Discovery make me fell that it's a good thing that i don't try to get job in the medical

Basic exemple not identified...

Will keep shooting at peoples for a while till it's fixed...

Minmatar ships don't die, they just turn into smaller Minmatar ships...

Zepheros Naeonis
TinklePee
#78 - 2016-03-13 19:50:28 UTC
Shaani Valkyr wrote:
Discovery make me fell that it's a good thing that i don't try to get job in the medical

Basic exemple not identified...

Will keep shooting at peoples for a while till it's fixed...

Ouch, nothing like getting the original test sample for determining a classification wrong, lol.
Burning Furry
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#79 - 2016-03-14 13:46:05 UTC
My two cent:

1 - There should be no accuracy penalty for selecting Unspecific or Negative.
Each time i have done so, most people went with Cytoplasm and i have been hit with an accuracy penalty.
Untill this is changed Unspecific/negative are both synonyms for Cytoplasm. Likewise with Cell-tocell variation.

2 - Can we change the tool tip on hovering over characteristics? It currently takes a lot of time to navigate your mouse in such a way as to avoid the tool-tip popping and blocking your view. I feel like i'm playing that wire-buzzing game.

3 - I frequently get an error whereby the selection i made for my previous sample get submitted for my current sample.

4 - We desperately need a limit on Cytoplasm. Its great to read that payout will reduce with falling accuracy below 40% but if someone is trolling the system by selecting cytoplasm the whole time, then they need to be removed.

5 - There should be a time limit on submissions. It should take more than 5 seconds to properly look at the sample, so we could safely remove/reject those submitted faster than this as spam.
Zepheros Naeonis
TinklePee
#80 - 2016-03-15 03:14:18 UTC
Burning Furry wrote:
My two cent:

1 - There should be no accuracy penalty for selecting Unspecific or Negative.
Each time i have done so, most people went with Cytoplasm and i have been hit with an accuracy penalty.
Untill this is changed Unspecific/negative are both synonyms for Cytoplasm. Likewise with Cell-tocell variation.

2 - Can we change the tool tip on hovering over characteristics? It currently takes a lot of time to navigate your mouse in such a way as to avoid the tool-tip popping and blocking your view. I feel like i'm playing that wire-buzzing game.

3 - I frequently get an error whereby the selection i made for my previous sample get submitted for my current sample.

4 - We desperately need a limit on Cytoplasm. Its great to read that payout will reduce with falling accuracy below 40% but if someone is trolling the system by selecting cytoplasm the whole time, then they need to be removed.

5 - There should be a time limit on submissions. It should take more than 5 seconds to properly look at the sample, so we could safely remove/reject those submitted faster than this as spam.

1. Interesting proposal, but it could affect submissions a lot more and act more like a default for people wanting to avoid a penalty hit if they were not sure what to select.

2. This would be nice. The hover annoys me frequently when trying to select something else.

3. They are aware of this and working on a fix.

4. Agreed.

5. This would seriously help out the system a lot and likely remove over half of the incorrect submissions.