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Give ships that can use a covert ops cloak a local delay
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Corvald Tyrska
Valknetra
#21 - 2016-03-12 08:00:21 UTC
Kiddoomer wrote:
So please explain me how is that hundred of people get caught daily ratting or mining daily in null space, with this so unfair instant local intel against you.


Spectre Fleet Combat Ceptor roams.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#22 - 2016-03-12 10:42:43 UTC
Vic Jefferson wrote:
There is no counter to local.


The only thing close to a counter is AFK camping a system in a cloaked ship.
Kyra Lee
Doomheim
#23 - 2016-03-12 11:02:38 UTC
Vic Jefferson wrote:
short of getting alts or other characters to awox.


You figured out one of them it seems.
Vic Jefferson
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
#24 - 2016-03-12 18:31:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Vic Jefferson
baltec1 wrote:
Vic Jefferson wrote:
There is no counter to local.


The only thing close to a counter is AFK camping a system in a cloaked ship.


Well yeah but this is just poor game play for both sides. If you have a 100% chance of seeing me coming and I have no chance to realistically get the jump on you, the only solution is to never leave and hope you think I'm not there.

Kyra Lee wrote:
Vic Jefferson wrote:
short of getting alts or other characters to awox.


You figured out one of them it seems.


Grossly asymmetrical in terms of effort. Yeah and you can try to get warp ins, but that's also usually too slow. The offgrid covert cyno thing also somewhat works, but again, contrived. Null Sec is supposed to be dangerous, yet with an absolute minimum of effort it is easily the most safe space in the game. It's boring game play, and bad game play, when the actions of both sides don't realistically have an effect on the outcome. Awoxing can be buckets of fun, but somehow the bar should be a little lower in supposedly dangerous space.

Vote Vic Jefferson for CSM X.....XI.....XII?
Xackattack Avianson
Hold The Pod
Not Purple Shoot It.
#25 - 2016-03-12 19:17:53 UTC
Vic Jefferson wrote:
Estella Osoka wrote:
Bad idea. No balance. The cloaky gets an advantage, the prey does not.

Just remove local entirely. Balance on both sides.


Sure there would be balance. Thanks to how vast sov is these days, it is literally impossible to sneak up on someone who is even paying the vaguest mote of attention thanks to either the in game tools/intel channels, or the 3rd party tools.

99.99% of the time, the kill is the result of the ratter being careless, with 00.01% of the time being because the hunter was good. I have done a lot of blops hunting, and this balance always was sort of frustrating, especially since most of the good ratting ships these days can do everything while aligned. Just a tiny 10 second window would give one enough time to find which anomaly they are at and give the hunter a chance.

Removing local entirely would be amazing - dscan becomes king and the active hunter rather than the afk ratter has an actual advantage.

Either that or actually fix the real problem of docking up in response to raiders being the best solution. Imagine if you had to complete a site to collect isk, and invaders could somehow de-spawn half completed anomalies, or if all income had to be collected through ESS type things that could not be guarded by rats.

Perfect, instant, 100% reliable intel sort of spoils a game about risk.


Precisely, I feel nullsec should be dangerous, after all it is -0.0 space, outside of empire control. Ratting in complete safety by watching the local count tick up from 7 to 8 shouldn't be possible in null security space, in my opinion.
Xackattack Avianson
Hold The Pod
Not Purple Shoot It.
#26 - 2016-03-12 19:24:56 UTC
Kiddoomer wrote:
It's easy enough already for prospect and bomber to fly right through the intel and go suprise slow aligning targets, I see your face too often in Provi to think that you dont want but even easier kills for yourself.


You're right, I do want kills. 95% of the kills I have gotten there have been from pilots that are either AFK ratting, people not giving too much attention to local count, or DC's I combat probe.

I don't want to rely on killing inattentive pilots, nor do I think attentive pilots should be punished for ratting. I just feel that nullsec should be far more unsafe than it currently is. Providence especially abuses local chat and intel channels, making it a pain to hunt targets.

Eve already has tools that can be used to stop covert ops ship hunting attempts: bubbles, insta-locking ships, d-scan, combat probes, cynosural field inhibitors, friendly cloaky eyes watching gates, etc. I think to balance it out the hunter needs a small advantage.
Xackattack Avianson
Hold The Pod
Not Purple Shoot It.
#27 - 2016-03-12 22:17:37 UTC
Iain Cariaba wrote:
Iria Ahrens wrote:
People are just going to tell you to go live in a wh.

You beat me to it. Big smile


The people i wish to kill don't live in a wormhole, they live in nullsec. Plus y'know you can't do black ops bridges and cynos in wormholes.
Lucien Visteen
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#28 - 2016-03-12 22:57:21 UTC
Xackattack Avianson wrote:
Kiddoomer wrote:
It's easy enough already for prospect and bomber to fly right through the intel and go suprise slow aligning targets, I see your face too often in Provi to think that you dont want but even easier kills for yourself.


You're right, I do want kills. 95% of the kills I have gotten there have been from pilots that are either AFK ratting, people not giving too much attention to local count, or DC's I combat probe.

I don't want to rely on killing inattentive pilots, nor do I think attentive pilots should be punished for ratting. I just feel that nullsec should be far more unsafe than it currently is. Providence especially abuses local chat and intel channels, making it a pain to hunt targets.

Eve already has tools that can be used to stop covert ops ship hunting attempts: bubbles, insta-locking ships, d-scan, combat probes, cynosural field inhibitors, friendly cloaky eyes watching gates, etc. I think to balance it out the hunter needs a small advantage.
If you are that starved for kills, I believe you should change targets. I hear PVP players tend to stick around more.

And, by your own admission, what you want to get out of this is not fights but to increase the chances for a successful gank. Even if you say you don't want to punish attentive PVE player, a proposal like this will punish attentive PVE players. So I will not support this.

While I'm not a fan of it, a proposal I am behind is; that you will not show up on local after changing systems, before one of the three following actions is taken.

  • You move your ship.
  • You activate a module.
  • The gate cloak runs out.

This gives you a chance to check your local surroundings for potential threats, and gives you time to plan your next actions.

The ships hung in the sky in much the same way that bricks don't.
Xackattack Avianson
Hold The Pod
Not Purple Shoot It.
#29 - 2016-03-13 00:39:25 UTC
Lucien Visteen wrote:
Xackattack Avianson wrote:
Kiddoomer wrote:
It's easy enough already for prospect and bomber to fly right through the intel and go suprise slow aligning targets, I see your face too often in Provi to think that you dont want but even easier kills for yourself.


You're right, I do want kills. 95% of the kills I have gotten there have been from pilots that are either AFK ratting, people not giving too much attention to local count, or DC's I combat probe.

I don't want to rely on killing inattentive pilots, nor do I think attentive pilots should be punished for ratting. I just feel that nullsec should be far more unsafe than it currently is. Providence especially abuses local chat and intel channels, making it a pain to hunt targets.

Eve already has tools that can be used to stop covert ops ship hunting attempts: bubbles, insta-locking ships, d-scan, combat probes, cynosural field inhibitors, friendly cloaky eyes watching gates, etc. I think to balance it out the hunter needs a small advantage.
If you are that starved for kills, I believe you should change targets. I hear PVP players tend to stick around more.

And, by your own admission, what you want to get out of this is not fights but to increase the chances for a successful gank. Even if you say you don't want to punish attentive PVE player, a proposal like this will punish attentive PVE players. So I will not support this.

While I'm not a fan of it, a proposal I am behind is; that you will not show up on local after changing systems, before one of the three following actions is taken.

  • You move your ship.
  • You activate a module.
  • The gate cloak runs out.

This gives you a chance to check your local surroundings for potential threats, and gives you time to plan your next actions.


Okay, that proposal would be just as good if not better for hunting as a lot of systems are small and you can find targets just through using the d-scan. This would still punish attentive players though.
Lucien Visteen
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#30 - 2016-03-13 14:42:18 UTC
Xackattack Avianson wrote:
Okay, that proposal would be just as good if not better for hunting as a lot of systems are small and you can find targets just through using the d-scan. This would still punish attentive players though.
Stuff like that can always be ironed out. I personally count the D-scanner as a module, and should as sutch, reveal you.

Things like opening side windows (market window, fitting window, wallet, all that stuff), opening or texting in private chat windows or opening the scanner window, should not reveal you. Since the system scanner goes automatic and runs every time you change systems, it should not reveal you either.

These are as always my personal opinions of a proposal I support the most, aside from my own.

Perhaps one free ping should be allowed?

The ships hung in the sky in much the same way that bricks don't.
Vic Jefferson
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
#31 - 2016-03-13 18:50:36 UTC
Lucien Visteen wrote:
.If you are that starved for kills, I believe you should change targets. I hear PVP players tend to stick around more.

And, by your own admission, what you want to get out of this is not fights but to increase the chances for a successful gank. Even if you say you don't want to punish attentive PVE player, a proposal like this will punish attentive PVE players. So I will not support this.


A few points.

It's not about being starved for kills. I enjoy a good fleet fight just as I enjoy a good blops, same with small gang stuff. Null should be risky, and players should represent the majority of that risk, so that it's a game for both sides; a fun game. Any player, anywhere, that believes or wants a risk free game should find a different game than EvE; yes you should do everything you can to optimize reward and minimize risk, but simply put local is such a strong mechanic in large stretches of null that it makes it too easy. Sure you can point fingers at gankers for wanting easy mode pvp, but they can just as easily, and more justified, point fingers right back saying you want risk free ISK.

You are viewing it all wrong. CODE is a blessing to freighters because if it were not for them, freighting wouldn't be a good profession; there would be no way to sort out the good freighter pilots from the bad, and the game would equally reward attentive and cautious ones with completely AFK ones. If it were not for CODE and their ilk, and AFK freighting were 100% safe, no one would pay for shipping, and there wouldn't be a profession, and the gameplay and the economy would be one step simpler and worse off.

Following that, null has really lost a way to sort out the good PVE players from the bad PVE players, and rewards all of them handsomely, making it a terrible paradigm. It would make for a better game if good PVE players profiteered more and bad ones did not, but the bar for staying safe is so low that there is no such filter. The biggest blessing to PVE players would be making all profitable PVE contestable, limited, and dangerous. Instead we have game distorting faucets that just ruin and cheapen the entire experience. Good PVE players would rejoice if null ratting were dangerous, as then legions of AFK netflix watching people wouldn't be making the same ISK as they would be. Effort should be rewarded, it simply is not when local is 99% of it.

Now some of this is issues with the sov system, namely, sov that is generating lots of player content has no value to the holding entity, wheras sov that is generating almost no player content is very valuable to the holding entity. If Every region were like Fountain and had a good mix of NPC space and player owned space, and there were no areas that were essentially risk free and everyone had to live with risk as part of PVE, it would be a healthier and better game.

Vote Vic Jefferson for CSM X.....XI.....XII?
Xackattack Avianson
Hold The Pod
Not Purple Shoot It.
#32 - 2016-03-13 19:25:09 UTC
Lucien Visteen wrote:
Xackattack Avianson wrote:
Okay, that proposal would be just as good if not better for hunting as a lot of systems are small and you can find targets just through using the d-scan. This would still punish attentive players though.
Stuff like that can always be ironed out. I personally count the D-scanner as a module, and should as sutch, reveal you.

Things like opening side windows (market window, fitting window, wallet, all that stuff), opening or texting in private chat windows or opening the scanner window, should not reveal you. Since the system scanner goes automatic and runs every time you change systems, it should not reveal you either.

These are as always my personal opinions of a proposal I support the most, aside from my own.

Perhaps one free ping should be allowed?


What would be the point of this if you couldn't d-scan? Where's the advantage of checking the market when you're hunting for targets? Might as well just keep the system how it is instead of implementing a useless feature.

What do you mean by one free ping?
Lucien Visteen
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#33 - 2016-03-13 21:03:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Lucien Visteen
One d-scan without being revealed, perhaps two... or three if you have achieved level 5 on the cloaking skill. What do you think would be fair to an attentive PVE player?

As I said, I am on the fence on it, If you dont like it that is completely fine. The general complaint from what I gather from hunters is that there is not enough time after a system jump. That proposal gives you some time to prepare and plan.

(edit)In regards to your proposal, I like that you limit it to the cov-ops cloak. But a hunt is as mutch the chase as it is the kill. If you are already on top of your prey before he gets a chance to respond, then that to will become old quick, and you will end up with a barren field in the end.

The bit about what I think should not reveal you, is there incase someone would be curious about it.

@Vic.
I quote OP here.
Quote:
You're right, I do want kills. 95% of the kills I have gotten there have been from pilots that are either AFK ratting, people not giving too much attention to local count, or DC's I combat probe.
This can not be misunderstood. He is not happy that 95% of his kills stems from people being AFK or innatentive. He is not talking about killing people that is AFK since he already get kills from that, but its not fun for him. He wants to stop people from getting away, whitch is fine don't get me wrong.

His proposal in its first iteration however is not good enough for me. Because you can do alot in 10 seconds.

I dont really know why you bring up AFK freighting. In my opinion, any AFK activity should die in a glorious fire.

And hot dropping, in my opinion, do not make PVE good, since the player engaging in said PVE activity is usually not equipped to deal with the aggressors. It is a foregone conclution.

I am curious though. From videos I see on Youtube, most hunters in WH-space tend to wait untill its target is done with the instance before engaging. And from my understanding that is because the rats tend to switch to a smaller target if it presents itself, and because said rats deal pretty good omni damage. Would you agree to incorporate that into K-space rats? It would make them more dangerous after all.

Quote:
but simply put local is such a strong mechanic in large stretches of null that it makes it too easy.
Yeah, I want to do big changes to local. Bigger than the proposal I presented. But for some reason people dont like it. What?

The ships hung in the sky in much the same way that bricks don't.
Xackattack Avianson
Hold The Pod
Not Purple Shoot It.
#34 - 2016-03-14 16:44:49 UTC
Lucien Visteen wrote:
One d-scan without being revealed, perhaps two... or three if you have achieved level 5 on the cloaking skill. What do you think would be fair to an attentive PVE player?

As I said, I am on the fence on it, If you dont like it that is completely fine. The general complaint from what I gather from hunters is that there is not enough time after a system jump. That proposal gives you some time to prepare and plan.

(edit)In regards to your proposal, I like that you limit it to the cov-ops cloak. But a hunt is as mutch the chase as it is the kill. If you are already on top of your prey before he gets a chance to respond, then that to will become old quick, and you will end up with a barren field in the end.

The bit about what I think should not reveal you, is there incase someone would be curious about it.

@Vic.
I quote OP here.
Quote:
You're right, I do want kills. 95% of the kills I have gotten there have been from pilots that are either AFK ratting, people not giving too much attention to local count, or DC's I combat probe.
This can not be misunderstood. He is not happy that 95% of his kills stems from people being AFK or innatentive. He is not talking about killing people that is AFK since he already get kills from that, but its not fun for him. He wants to stop people from getting away, whitch is fine don't get me wrong.

His proposal in its first iteration however is not good enough for me. Because you can do alot in 10 seconds.

I dont really know why you bring up AFK freighting. In my opinion, any AFK activity should die in a glorious fire.

And hot dropping, in my opinion, do not make PVE good, since the player engaging in said PVE activity is usually not equipped to deal with the aggressors. It is a foregone conclution.

I am curious though. From videos I see on Youtube, most hunters in WH-space tend to wait untill its target is done with the instance before engaging. And from my understanding that is because the rats tend to switch to a smaller target if it presents itself, and because said rats deal pretty good omni damage. Would you agree to incorporate that into K-space rats? It would make them more dangerous after all.

Quote:
but simply put local is such a strong mechanic in large stretches of null that it makes it too easy.
Yeah, I want to do big changes to local. Bigger than the proposal I presented. But for some reason people dont like it. What?


1-3 d-scans aren't enough information, maybe if you check to see what site they're in beforehand, but still they'd see you on local the minute your gate cloak fades or your d-scan uses are up.

The point of hotdropping is to overwhelm and kill the enemy, i feel covert ops is currently tailored to kill ratters it's just missing it's "covert opsness" when they see you pop up in the local chat.

K-Space rats can already kill bombers, nowhere near as deadly as sleepers but still pretty gnarly.
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#35 - 2016-03-14 19:53:43 UTC
Xackattack Avianson wrote:


The point of hotdropping is to overwhelm and kill the enemy, i feel covert ops is currently tailored to kill ratters it's just missing it's "covert opsness" when they see you pop up in the local chat.



To me, this read like this : I want to drop on ratter with absolutely no chance of evading because my ship has the ability to fit a covert cloak.
Xackattack Avianson
Hold The Pod
Not Purple Shoot It.
#36 - 2016-03-15 01:19:19 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Xackattack Avianson wrote:


The point of hotdropping is to overwhelm and kill the enemy, i feel covert ops is currently tailored to kill ratters it's just missing it's "covert opsness" when they see you pop up in the local chat.



To me, this read like this : I want to drop on ratter with absolutely no chance of evading because my ship has the ability to fit a covert cloak.


That's not really my point, my point is local chat is being abused too heavily for intel and needs to be fixed. It would need to be balanced so ratters have a chance of getting away. If ratters get caught it is nullsec after all, "dangerous" space.
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#37 - 2016-03-15 01:52:33 UTC
Just delete local alltogether (Except in WH Space).
K Space should instead operate on a delayed Constellation chat. This connects you with more people and means precise locations are not available, and a speed run can get through without popping up but a fleet is likely to spike.
Forelle mit Delle
Thats my BOI
#38 - 2016-03-15 13:40:30 UTC
Holy...


following your logic all ratters are afk and bad anyway. and you're not getting them cause local. wat.png

why not directly ask ccp for a module teleporting you next to a ratting ship and another mod to instantly blow it up?
I thought you pvp guys enjoy a good fight...

owait you actually just jump on stuff that is easy kills. and as people are getting less ******** it's harder to catch anyone if you're already in intel 5j ahead... poor guys.

ess collecting ALL income from a system without local, why don't you just ask the ratters friendly to give you all of your isk?
b-but they can defend their ess... yeah sure cause you surely would appear in a solo maller trying to heroically take those ratters on 10vs1 and totally won't bring a blob of 20 people happily farming ess's.

it seems you have quite the problem with other people making isk while not caring about your sad pvp attempts...
Citadels will make it even better so I can even dock my ratting supers, good times ahead...
If you want pvp (considering 5 ships killing afk targets is pvp) then go somewhere where people are trying to engage you instead of avoid, but this might come at the risk of a fair battle you might lose...

the people who are looking for pvp usually go for the ones trying to avoid it instead of against each other which would lead to way more interesting fights. tell me once more it's not the easy kills you want.

//for topic tl;dr: bad idea, no.
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