Wormholes

Any solution that involves the Higs rig alone will just result in people making twice as many passes to roll. Assume for the sake of argument that a Higs rig removes nullification. Solution, take the Higs rig off and roll the hole in my invulnerable yacht.

Note there is a mistake with regard to the utility when I first submitted and it was all just rubbish. I mistakenly said it is X-mX in both cases, that of the yacht and the megathron, it is quite obviously not equal in each case, as one must make many more passes with the yachts to close a hole. You can't just rip out the utility value like I had first wanted too. I need information about the incidence rates of rolling in various ways which I don't have access too :(

Not bad, not bad at all, it almost sounded rational😍

I really hope we can find out whether we have a real problem with it, or whether it is repeated phrases, or a friend of a friend said they saw that.

There are a couple of possible scenarios that could be worrying if confirmed, and would need a good hard looking at. One poster in particular was very valuable, We just need more like that.

Detailed reports would also help identify what counter, either by player or redesign, would be appropriate, more info would be very helpful.

But until we get that buzzword bingo might somehow mysteriously drop a germ of an idea. We can hope

I'd love to upvote your reply, but after looking at the urban dictionary, I am somewhat worried 😄

Okay, I was thinking about this all day at work and I've had time to think of a response.

I've based my proposal/discussion on 2 fundamental arguments, I will address them and then follow up with my proposal and reasoning. I feel that im in a rare situation as I have been the leader of both a smaller pvp group, and a larger pvp group and can offer insight into both situations.

1) Bears will not fight, it doesnt matter what change we do here.

2) PVP people love to fight, but wont take a heavily lopsided fight, nor **** away assets. (redfire excluded)


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In reference to the former, I believe that no matter what the changes happening here you will NEVER get true bears to actually fight you unless you are able to force pvp upon them. I dont think that eliminating their ability to roll reasonably safely will make it so that you can get kills unless you actually consider ganking a rolling ship "fun". They are never going to unpos and come and fight you, regardless of what you do to the yachts etc. The only way that you can get them to "fight" is if you catch them with their pants down and to do that you need them to be out in the chain pvping/flying around. I think that if you make rolling a semi/hostile hole an impossibility, all it does is push people out of wormhole space and making logging off the only options. I think that everyone here can agree that forcing people to have the only option of logging off is in the worst interests of wormhole space.

We want to have bears active in wormhole space because to pvp groups they are the "prey" they have to have the ability to move around reasonably freely, and be able to roll hostile holes off to be able to enjoy their content. I think its incredibly one sided of the majority of the people in this discussion to completely refuse to look at it from the other side of the coin. Not everyone in wspace spends the entirety of their day rolling for PVP and foaming at the mouth when they connect to a big entity. We need to appreciate and respect the fact that people who focus on PvE and other tasks in wspace are an important part of the wh ecosystem, similar to how herbivores are important to the natural ecosystem. Not everyone can be a wolf.

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In reference to the 2nd, I feel that the ability to roll off immense large and frankly disrespectful groups is an important part of wormhole space and the enjoyment of others. There are a number of large groups that seem to think they are entitled to have fleets whelp to them, absolute refusal to have basic diplomatic terms, and honoring of attempts to try to offer reasonable pvp. You know who you are. These are the groups that will sit on your static, talk god awful amounts of ****, and sit there for hours. If we completely eliminate the ability to roll holes on these sort of entities, like arguement #1, the only option is to log off.

The ability to roll gave balance to wormhole space. I honestly feel that the loudest of the complainers in regards to the yachts are the people who I mentioned above. I will freely admit that there should be changes, but to say that there shouldn't be some sort of way to roll off a hostile entity is absurd and is heavy handed.

I want to fight the major groups, I want to fight anyone I can get a real fight from. What absolutely ruins my game is when a group sits on my static with a force that I cant POSSIBLY engage without it being a complete whelp fleet, is completely unwilling to downship/numbers, nor engage in basic diplomacy to try to have some sort of engagement that benefits both sides. Yachts/t3s gave me the ability to roll those people off, and continue to enjoy my game. If there is no way of reasonably rolling off a hostile entity, it goes back to one of my main points.

The only option left, is to log off.

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In closing I would like to add my suggestion to fix this issue. I believe that, like CCP has done in the past, a small steps forward approach is what is best. I dont think that its for the betterment of wormhole space, or the game in general to outright eliminate the ability to have REASONABLY safe rolling. As such I would like to put forward the following suggestion.


The removal of interdiction nullification of yachts themselves (no changes to higgs etc) and

The increase of the align time by interdiction nullified t3s by 1-3 seconds (requires testing/insight).

I feel that the yachts being interdiction nullified is a major problem, and this still allows us to have reasonably fast, cheap, and efficient rollers, that are able to be caught and killed by a reasonably good smallgang. A single sabre sitting on a hole, can bubble, decloak, and kill a yacht.

I dont believe that rolling t3's should have the same elimination however as I believe, as noted above, there should be some way to roll a hostile hole under bubbles. However I feel a good compromise would be to increase the window of time a camping fleet has to decloak a rolling t3 and catch it. It would give a defender the opportunity to roll a hole while still having some risk and a tasty reward for a camping entity.

Thank you for reading my post.

What zero risk?!
I've been caught in inties on gates by insta-lockers. Iunno, why don't you bring an insta-locker then? I've been pointed on the wrong side of my static, in a rolling yacht by an insta-locker. I know it can be done.

No interactivity? Say what? I am interacting with you ~ I'm shutting the door on your 10-1 fleet, and that is counterplay, not absence thereof.

"Because it's OTHER PLAYERS forcing that upon you, not the game" - ok, then accept the game allowing smaller groups to deny you your intent.

Let's cut to the root issue here, it is possible for a swarm (number dependent on hole) can crit a hole, before a response fleet can be formed, if the swarmers, are willing to lock one one or more of their yachts out, they can close it too, or finish with a overpropped higgs HIC.

Beyond that, there is no issue other than a lack of willingness to accept that EVE is a game of rock Paper Scissors.

We have DPS ships, ships with fast lock, and many other choices, not least evasion fit ships.

There is no right to have expectations that a high DPS wolfpack, can be a press button win against an evasion fit ship.

This whole argument is that some people are angry, or dissapointed, that evasion ships even exist in wormhole space, and fury that a ship that cannot shoot, cannot defend itself, dares to face a wolfpack, let alone take meaningful action against it.

The solution is not to bring the same ineffective fit against evasion fit ships every time, change your ships/fits, but of course, then a counter fit might jump through the hole and give us a fight that is harder to win. That way we might get good fights, and that opportunity is lost if we try to nerf evasion ships.

If we cripple the yacht, we then move onto every single evasion fit ship, until they are all rendered pointless in this role, and we are left with Battleships, the size of a small planet, lumbering towards the hole, with no need to think about changing ones fit or ship, to be a nice easy bit of fun, fun for some now all practical counters have been removed. Not so much fun for the player who just wanted to play today.

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Of course, the reality is no one who wishes to avoid an unfair fight, will ever Fight.

And those of us who wish to fight would never bring an evasion fit anyway.

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Apart from possible issue described in the first sentence , there is NOTHING wrong with the yacht.

It is Just being used as a reasonable sounding stalking horse, to start the process of eliminating Evasion fit ships.

CCP are a group of intelligent aware people, stop treating them like simpletons, they know when people are trying to put one over them.

I love your replies epicurus, they make me laugh so hard that someone can be as stupid as you are :D

I mean you actually believe that yacht rolling or even t3 higgs (to a degree) is balanced is just, well absurd. There should not be a single ship in eve which cannot be caught 'reasonably', and by that I mean parking 6 capitals around the hole to cover the decloak positions.

There is no rock paper scissors, it would be like introducing phasers into the mix, there is no counter to yahcts thats the problem, and no getting yourself rolled out through stupidity is not a counter.

Heres how you catch a yahct:
- Hope they are a bad pilots (thats it)

You honestly think its acceptable currently to connect to a bear hole, scan down its chain, find pvp, and then have to go home because they are yachting your connection? Honestly I should just seed you for believing that the act of doing that is completely valid form of gameplay.

Honestly, I'm a big fan of the yachts and t3s the way they are now, but when I hear about what is going on in TDSINs home right now... they MUST be fixed.

TDSIN right now cannot do ANYTHING on their EU timezone because some douchebag just signs in 8 yachts and closes their static repeatedly. There is no way to counter it, no way to stop it.

The changes I proposed are slight modifications that any reasonable wormhole corp should be able to still handle. Yachts can be used to close holes in the chain reasonably well, and reasonably safely.

If it is a hostile hole, t3s can still be used albeit a bit more catchable because of increased align time.

I DONT agree with leaving them in their current versions, however I dont agree with a heavy handed approach right now either.

In retrospect we agree far more than we disagree, the events that are being reported in the TDSin system go far beyond, the reasonable use of any ship or tool, this is The swarm rolling I discussed that has the potential to be not just disruptive but totally destructive, It is effectively Griefing.

Like Griefing it is not the tool at fault, it is the use of it to create said griefing.

The use in the main, of any Evasion fit ship, is a rational and sensible counter to larger fleets making closing the hole either non sensible, or suicidal , and that results in no fun for anyone.

This is quite something else.
Twiddling with these ships, or downright nerfing them would be an excessive and destructive action, as it effects all space and all uses.

The dealing with this specific use, in this specific way, will it seem need to be undertaken.

Whilst the simplest choice would be to make it impossible to roll a hole against larger numbers, that would be both foolhardy, simplistic, and harmful.

But let us try to offer options to deal with this SPECIFIC EDGE CASE.

Some possibilities would be to in some way focus on swarm rolling.
One idea is to prevent multiple Higgs rigs active on the same grid, but it has been pointed out, that would affect miners.
One other is that more than three higgs ships passing a wormhole would destabilise the hole for a period.

I am sure, If we stay focused, and avoid the temptation to nerf everything to make killing everything easy, then sensible and intelligent people can come up with good ideas, to deal with this specific situation in a focused and surgical way.