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Yachts, yachts, yachts.

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biz Antollare
The Graduates
The Initiative.
#21 - 2016-03-10 21:35:24 UTC
hands down the best fix for this is... making it so fitting a higgs rig removes any nullification ability on the ship and covert ops ability.
Obil Que
Star Explorers
Solis Tenebris
#22 - 2016-03-10 21:40:13 UTC
epicurus ataraxia wrote:
Obil Que wrote:
epicurus ataraxia wrote:
Sten Taxi wrote:
The problem is the combination of battlesize prop mod and nullifcation + cloak, on any ship. Yacht or Higgs is not the problem. Nerf the yacht and t3s will take its place (as it was before). Nerf higgs and we will twice the number of passes. To deal with this you have to deal with t3s aswell. Just doing it for yachts is just penalizing lower SP players.


I am interested to know, what exactly do people find upsetting about a solo ship not automatically leading to a killmail, when rolling a hole is involved?


CCP explicitly changed hole rolling in Hyperion to introduce risk to the process
CCP introduced Higgs post-Hyperion
Higgs Yachts (and higgs nullified T3s) represent activity that goes expressly against the goals of the Hyperion changes

Just that alone seems enough of a justification to review the impact of higgs + nullification

You do have a point there, but hyperion changed the spawn distance according to mass, and a 120mil mass tengu, and a 120mil mass battleship spawn at the same distance, so that satisfies the goals of hyperion perfectly.
Hyperion was not designed to provide easier kills, though that could be the case, it was to prevent ships immidiately jumping back, at low risk.
Whether it is a tengu, a yacht, or a battleship, the mass determines the spawn distance and the distance it has to travel to get to the hole.

Agreed, the speed it travels, and the physical size of the ship makes the cruiser sized hulls harder to uncloak, this was never a consideration for hyperion. In fact hyperion benefited small ships. Enabling them to immidiately cloak. This also annoyed people. And pleased others greatly.

Is there a situation where large fleets of Yachts, swarm roll holes? i have not seen it, but I imagine if that occured, it would be very frustrating.


Yes, this is my most common sightings of them. 4 players, usually PI alts or other low skill toons rolling the holes en masse. With their agility, spawn distance makes almost no difference and actually works to their benefit making it near impossible to smartbomb them or otherwise catch them before they warp/cloak and then come right back to roll again.
Duo Roman
The Dark Space Initiative
Scary Wormhole People
#23 - 2016-03-10 21:43:31 UTC
Hi corbexx.

Could you describe the problem CCP is seeking help to fix? I now a lot of people gave their insights in previous posts, but would be good to know EXACTLY what CCP or CSM think the problem is.

Thanks!
biz Antollare
The Graduates
The Initiative.
#24 - 2016-03-10 21:51:50 UTC  |  Edited by: biz Antollare
epicurus ataraxia wrote:


Cool, I have no problem with that, you did read the bit that explained that what you wrote was completely wrong though I hope? It is always nice to know.





you mean the part where you think you need covert ops trained up to use yachts to roll holes and not get caught?

news flash... you can fit these things to make them instawarp. the covert ops cloak isnt even needed. so yea... crap alts with practically no training can fly them.

I particularly like your post on Corbex thread about WH mass in c5 and c6's where you said you dont want caps flying through your c4.

spot on.
epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#25 - 2016-03-10 21:56:32 UTC
Obil Que wrote:
epicurus ataraxia wrote:
Obil Que wrote:
epicurus ataraxia wrote:
Sten Taxi wrote:
The problem is the combination of battlesize prop mod and nullifcation + cloak, on any ship. Yacht or Higgs is not the problem. Nerf the yacht and t3s will take its place (as it was before). Nerf higgs and we will twice the number of passes. To deal with this you have to deal with t3s aswell. Just doing it for yachts is just penalizing lower SP players.


I am interested to know, what exactly do people find upsetting about a solo ship not automatically leading to a killmail, when rolling a hole is involved?


CCP explicitly changed hole rolling in Hyperion to introduce risk to the process
CCP introduced Higgs post-Hyperion
Higgs Yachts (and higgs nullified T3s) represent activity that goes expressly against the goals of the Hyperion changes

Just that alone seems enough of a justification to review the impact of higgs + nullification

You do have a point there, but hyperion changed the spawn distance according to mass, and a 120mil mass tengu, and a 120mil mass battleship spawn at the same distance, so that satisfies the goals of hyperion perfectly.
Hyperion was not designed to provide easier kills, though that could be the case, it was to prevent ships immidiately jumping back, at low risk.
Whether it is a tengu, a yacht, or a battleship, the mass determines the spawn distance and the distance it has to travel to get to the hole.

Agreed, the speed it travels, and the physical size of the ship makes the cruiser sized hulls harder to uncloak, this was never a consideration for hyperion. In fact hyperion benefited small ships. Enabling them to immidiately cloak. This also annoyed people. And pleased others greatly.

Is there a situation where large fleets of Yachts, swarm roll holes? i have not seen it, but I imagine if that occured, it would be very frustrating.


Yes, this is my most common sightings of them. 4 players, usually PI alts or other low skill toons rolling the holes en masse. With their agility, spawn distance makes almost no difference and actually works to their benefit making it near impossible to smartbomb them or otherwise catch them before they warp/cloak and then come right back to roll again.


Ok, I get it, they are probably higher skill, than just bare PI alts though, Just getting enough poer grid for an oversized prop mod with enough cap, is not trivial, and the covert ops cloak and required support skills, is considerable.
But that is admittedly, not more than a few months.

If we make them impractical to use, what alternative do you see occurring? Of course they can pos or log off, but with 4 they could have a fight. Do you think they are using yachts, because they are outnumbered and would feel using battleships would be foolish?
And have you not managed to get some to roll themselves out of home?
That is fun.

If we remove the yacht, as a choice, and the T3 too, what would the actual result be? Are we going to get fights, or just force them to pos up or logoff, as soon as they see a big (for them) fleet?
We need to consider if we are going to get more action or unintentionally get less. Removing options from weaker players, often reduces our prey.

If a mechanic that prevented swarms of yachts closing the hole I would be in favour of that, as large fleets, have the capability of fighting. Forcing those who do not concerns me though.

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE
Obil Que
Star Explorers
Solis Tenebris
#26 - 2016-03-10 22:04:23 UTC
epicurus ataraxia wrote:
Ok, I get it, they are probably higher skill, than just bare PI alts though, Just getting enough poer grid for an oversized prop mod with enough cap, is not trivial, and the covert ops cloak and required support skills, is considerable.
But that is admittedly, not more than a few months.

If we make them impractical to use, what alternative do you see occurring? Of course they can pos or log off, but with 4 they could have a fight. Do you think they are using yachts, because they are outnumbered and would feel using battleships would be foolish?
And have you not managed to get some to roll themselves out of home?
That is fun.

If we remove the yacht, as a choice, and the T3 too, what would the actual result be? Are we going to get fights, or just force them to pos up or logoff, as soon as they see a big (for them) fleet?
We need to consider if we are going to get more action or unintentionally get less. Removing options from weaker players, often reduces our prey.

If a mechanic that prevented swarms of yachts closing the hole I would be in favour of that, as large fleets, have the capability of fighting. Forcing those who do not concerns me though.


Oddly, the person who did it is admittedly an HK bear alt. It was one person, 5 accounts. They happened to post on reddit one or two days later when this topic first came up

https://www.reddit.com/r/Eve/comments/47ksdo/ccp_fozzie_wants_our_opinion_on_rolling_yachts/d0dmx5k

Quote:
Example 1: I have my own hole. When I get a connection from a PvP group I just log in 4 yacht pilots and start rolling the hole with zero risk. I've had Dropbears/AOE/Iso5 sit on the other side with a bunch of insta-locking **** and just rolled in their faces. Prior to yachts I would've tried to wait until they weren't paying attention and rolled with with Higgs battleships, which are actual catchable and lead to content. I've lost and killed plenty of those.


I think they sum up quite nicely what the alternatives are and his willingness to use them. In that case it would be a more calculated attempt to close the chain and would carry an appropriate amount of risk and possibly generate a fight if the offending party chose to engage.
epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#27 - 2016-03-10 22:16:11 UTC
biz Antollare wrote:
epicurus ataraxia wrote:


Cool, I have no problem with that, you did read the bit that explained that what you wrote was completely wrong though I hope? It is always nice to know.





you mean the part where you think you need covert ops trained up to use yachts to roll holes and not get caught?

news flash... you can fit these things to make them instawarp. the covert ops cloak isnt even needed. so yea... crap alts with practically no training can fly them.

I particularly like your post on Corbex thread about WH mass in c5 and c6's where you said you dont want caps flying through your c4.

spot on.

instawarp is to align to warp sub 2 seconds, this cannot be achieved without max skills and either an expensive head of implants, or faction inertial stabilisers.
You cannot get capitals into a C4
But as corbexx was discussing wh mass changes, it was appropriate, to ensure, that did not occur by accident.

But, lets move on. There is no need to keep making corrections, the yacht is an effective holeroller under certain conditions, I do not argue with that.

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE
helana Tsero
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#28 - 2016-03-10 22:17:37 UTC  |  Edited by: helana Tsero
Remove the HIGS rig bonus from yachts

Also remove HIGS rig bonus on T3s. (causing rolling cloaky nullied T3s are just as bad)

If people want to roll then they need to risk a battleship / orca / capital.

Risk = content for everyone. Many a great fight has happened because a rolling orca / capital was tackled on a WH.


Also Corbexx.

You going bring to CCPs attention the problem with citadels removing most of our intel gathering abilities in W space ?

We wont be able to see ships in force fields any longer. (dscaning for ships at POS was key way scouts covered systems quickly trying to find activity). This combined with watch lists going away means finding content in w space is going to be much harder after citadels. CCP need to be made aware of this, scouting is the lifeblood of w space..

"...ppl need to get out of caves and they will see something new.... thats where eve is placed... not in cave."  | zoonr-Korsairs |

Meanwhile Citadel release issues: "tried to bug report this and the bug report is bugged as well" | Rafeau |
epicurus ataraxia
Illusion of Solitude.
Illusion of Solitude
#29 - 2016-03-10 22:18:32 UTC  |  Edited by: epicurus ataraxia
Obil Que wrote:
epicurus ataraxia wrote:
Ok, I get it, they are probably higher skill, than just bare PI alts though, Just getting enough poer grid for an oversized prop mod with enough cap, is not trivial, and the covert ops cloak and required support skills, is considerable.
But that is admittedly, not more than a few months.

If we make them impractical to use, what alternative do you see occurring? Of course they can pos or log off, but with 4 they could have a fight. Do you think they are using yachts, because they are outnumbered and would feel using battleships would be foolish?
And have you not managed to get some to roll themselves out of home?
That is fun.

If we remove the yacht, as a choice, and the T3 too, what would the actual result be? Are we going to get fights, or just force them to pos up or logoff, as soon as they see a big (for them) fleet?
We need to consider if we are going to get more action or unintentionally get less. Removing options from weaker players, often reduces our prey.

If a mechanic that prevented swarms of yachts closing the hole I would be in favour of that, as large fleets, have the capability of fighting. Forcing those who do not concerns me though.


Oddly, the person who did it is admittedly an HK bear alt. It was one person, 5 accounts. They happened to post on reddit one or two days later when this topic first came up

https://www.reddit.com/r/Eve/comments/47ksdo/ccp_fozzie_wants_our_opinion_on_rolling_yachts/d0dmx5k

Quote:
Example 1: I have my own hole. When I get a connection from a PvP group I just log in 4 yacht pilots and start rolling the hole with zero risk. I've had Dropbears/AOE/Iso5 sit on the other side with a bunch of insta-locking **** and just rolled in their faces. Prior to yachts I would've tried to wait until they weren't paying attention and rolled with with Higgs battleships, which are actual catchable and lead to content. I've lost and killed plenty of those.


I think they sum up quite nicely what the alternatives are and his willingness to use them. In that case it would be a more calculated attempt to close the chain and would carry an appropriate amount of risk and possibly generate a fight if the offending party chose to engage.


Ok I agree, that form of behaviour definitely needs to be taken into account, it is a perfectly valid concern.
Somehow we need to balance that out, without destroying it for people who have legitimate and reasonable uses for it.
I think it likely, that anyone swarm jumping with these is never going to choose to engage however, A fight would be most unlikely, and whatever we do will not change that level of avoidance. They would either POS up or safe log. That is some sort of win I guess, but a phyrric victory if we hurt Lo class wormhole space.

There is one EvE. Many people. Many lifestyles. WE are EvE
unimatrix0030
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#30 - 2016-03-10 22:22:27 UTC  |  Edited by: unimatrix0030
The main issue is that now you can roll a hole without any risk with yachts.
It can be used defensively and offensivly( closing a hole to prevent backup from coming in, cutting half a fleet of).
The main problem is the fact that there is no counter.
Because of the higgs rig the can get into warp fast, because of the cloak you can't see them land and because of the nullification you can't stop them with a bubble.
Now i think the best sollution is to have higg riggs remove nullification to all ships fitting them.
Now why only that?
Because now you can have a counterplay.
Sure they can still try to do it cloaked but it will be slow and there is a chance to decloak.
And they can't warp away instantly (if you have a bubble)so you have again a chance to catch them.
A fleet on the hole with a bubble can "protect" themselfs from instant rolling.
And when no one is around you can still roll the holes with them making an easier transition for people already using them this way.
Also this removes the possibility to do the same on T3's with nullification. Wich would just move the problem to an other ship hull.
Also it won't make any impact on none wh use since they don't need to have higgs riggs on those.

The alternative of making higgs remove covert ops is not that good,yes you can see them coming, but the agility is still there and you can not protect your fleet with a bubble. The only counterplay is always having a insta locker with you wich remove a ship to be used in battle . Wich is worse for smaller corps/alliances. Yes you still need a bubbler, but lets face it who doesn't use those?

Now the alternative to remove BS prop mods from them, or not being able to fit higgs to yachts
People only using yachts as rolling ships suddenly would have no rolling ships.
People would still be able to do it with t3 ships, wich would move the problem to an other ship hull.

No local in null sec would fix everything!
Ariete
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#31 - 2016-03-10 22:22:40 UTC
I would disable the higgs rigs or remove the rig slots entirely. The ships where seen as a larger shuttle to help people get about easier with covert cloak and nullification, this is the role of the ship through out Eve.

Removing the rigs stops it been abused by wormholers and not nerf it for the rest of eve.
Duo Roman
The Dark Space Initiative
Scary Wormhole People
#32 - 2016-03-10 22:33:53 UTC
Does the yacht can't be disrupted/scrammed at all before warping off?
unimatrix0030
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#33 - 2016-03-10 22:37:28 UTC
They cloak and because of the lower max speed to go into warp quite fast, even higgs bs are faster in warp.

No local in null sec would fix everything!
Pancocco
Jerz Meymez Industry
#34 - 2016-03-10 23:01:22 UTC
It's a one time ship. If all the wormhole entities that dislike it were to band togheter and just buy them all off the market/price control them. We wouldn't be having this conversation.

Constructive thoughts: People that are yachting you won't be giving you a fight anyway. the exact same technique can be made with lets say a tengu. The SP/isk costs are not an argument as most of the people that are unhappy with yachts are people who are on the high-end spectrum of wh pvp.

Extra Foramen vermis nulla salus
Iyokus Patrouette
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#35 - 2016-03-11 00:34:42 UTC
Yachts can no longer enter wormholes because. . . reasons?

---- Advocate for the initiation of purple coloured wormholes----

Lyron-Baktos
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#36 - 2016-03-11 01:00:37 UTC
yachts are fine the way they are
Axel Stenmark
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#37 - 2016-03-11 01:18:06 UTC
I'm hesitant to post in this topic for the backlash I may receive for my perspective or my colleagues, but I think that most people advocating that yachts are fine as they are have simply not have them used against them yet. Clearly from a PvP perspective yachting is the absolute lowest risk form of content denial. Anyone who is in WH's primarily for PvE may think this is a great option.

I would caution people who think this is good to understand what happens when yachts are used against you to prevent PvE, or something as simple as fueling your POS. A single person with yacht alts can seed your wormhole, and then close any connection that may be beneficial to you. The connection doesn't even need to collapse, going critical can be just as effective. Here's how it works:

Hmm, you play in USTZ? I play in USTZ, nice.
I seed Yachts into your wormhole with a single scanning alt.
You have a connection with sites worth running, assemble the MJD battleships let's PvE.
I see you moving PvE ships out and close or crit the hole behind you. Have fun scanning yourself back.
Gas sites next door?
What door?
Getting good loot from your own WH by itself?
You have a connection to high-sec to take loot out, bring fuel in.
I see you leave for high-sec. Guess what no more connection.
Scanning out a new chain to bring your hauler back in? Nope, I just rolled out your scanner.
Try again. I hope you have more scanners in this wormhole.
Gonna try to wait out the storm? Play in different timezones? Sounds fun and sustainable.
How did those yachts work out for you?

If that sounds unreasonable, understand that this is already happening. As a member of the ~evil WH CFC renter coalition~, I know this is already happening.

It is not possible to remove yachts through market PvP. They have been in game for a year now, with only 2200 losses total. Think of the all of the accounts that received them for free. There are not even enough on market to make a dent in the total population by buying them out. With this rate of attrition the yachts will be in game for decades.

Content denial in any form is bad. I'm not advocating that PvE focused players need to make sacrifices to PvP players. I am advocating that hole control should remain an important part of WH game play with risks and rewards, and yachts have a risk to reward ratio that is drastically skewed.

There really don't need to be any special changes to the yachts to fix them. Just decrease the power grid so they can't fit an over-sized prop mod and the reward is drastically reduced and a slight (~0.2 sec) increase in align time will fix the risk enough. Suddenly you have to use the same yacht five times to get the current effect of one and they are no longer insta-warping to anyone outside of the UK. I'm on the fence about changes to T3's to make rolling with them impractical. They seem to be expensive enough in terms of ISK and SP without the ability to insta-warp to maybe leave unchanged.
Duo Roman
The Dark Space Initiative
Scary Wormhole People
#38 - 2016-03-11 02:00:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Duo Roman
They are pretty good for drug smuggling, specially fitting Higgs rig into it.

However, the nullifying bonus and good agility and should require some skills.

A simple and elegant solution would be to increase the ship's skills requirements from Spaceship Command lvl 1 to, say:

Spaceship Command lvl 5
Navigation lvl 5 (same as Interdiction Nullifier propulsion subsystem)
Evasive Maneuvering lvl 5 (same as interceptors which has the same nullifying bonus)

That should restrict it's use by new players, while keeping it`s nice smuggling bonuses.

Edit: maybe add "Gravitron Physics" as the skill is required to use the Interdictor Sphere Launcer?
Grav Physics itself requires Science lvl 5 and Powergrid Management lvl 5, so that would be a pretty nice requirement.
Braden Fanguard
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#39 - 2016-03-11 02:25:58 UTC
corbexx wrote:
We're still looking for feedback on these in regard to rolling wormholes.

Some ideas that have been presented.

Make it so higgs riggs can't be fit on them.
Make higgs riggs remove nulification.
Make higgs remove Cov ops cloak.
Make it so yachts can't fit BS prop mods.

More ideas are always welcome as well as discussion on them in general.


Very much E none of the above. Seriously, a yacht has a mass of 10 million kg. A battleship sized ab adds 50 million. All that and a Higgs rig gives it 120 million. Hardly the most ideal mass for wormhole rolling. If this is such an issue, what about using HIC with bubbles to reduce there mass down to the size of a pod, and then come back through a hole with the mass of a battleship? Is that too broken? There is nothing wrong with rolling Yatchs. They make up for the fact they they are a PITA to catch by being very much not ideal for hole rolling. I seriously do not understand the sudden intrest in rolling yatchs being "broken." They are fine
Michael1995
Lazerhawks
L A Z E R H A W K S
#40 - 2016-03-11 03:39:56 UTC
Braden Fanguard wrote:

Very much E none of the above. Seriously, a yacht has a mass of 10 million kg. A battleship sized ab adds 50 million. All that and a Higgs rig gives it 120 million. Hardly the most ideal mass for wormhole rolling. If this is such an issue, what about using HIC with bubbles to reduce there mass down to the size of a pod, and then come back through a hole with the mass of a battleship? Is that too broken? There is nothing wrong with rolling Yatchs. They make up for the fact they they are a PITA to catch by being very much not ideal for hole rolling. I seriously do not understand the sudden intrest in rolling yatchs being "broken." They are fine


Braden Fanguard for CSM.

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