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Project Discovery and Button Mashers

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Bastien Laval
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#61 - 2016-03-10 16:10:09 UTC
So for all the cytoplasm mashers


This is Cytoplasm:

http://imgur.com/RGnnaps


This is not (still had 30% cytoplasm in community consensus)

http://imgur.com/LsU8Nps

Beta Maoye
#62 - 2016-03-10 16:46:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Beta Maoye
I am concerning the problem that if most people click exit to avoid difficult images, eventually those who take time to tackle difficult tasks will be punished by the system. I think there should be some kind of negative consequence if a player constantly click exit and retry to pick easy image. Improvement of one's accuracy at the expense of others should be discouraged. What is it good for the project if only a few touch the difficult cases?
Ria Nieyli
Nieyli Enterprises
SL33PERS
#63 - 2016-03-10 17:28:58 UTC
I'm wondering if there's a way to report corrupt images, since I just got this one.
Bastien Laval
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#64 - 2016-03-10 18:01:50 UTC
I chose abnormal sample in the bottom left of the picture
HPA Darkfield Oramara
H P A
C C P Alliance
#65 - 2016-03-10 18:07:50 UTC
Ria Nieyli wrote:
I'm wondering if there's a way to report corrupt images, since I just got this one.


Well spotted! We just got aware that images like that are in the game and will try to remove them asap. However, they should be really rare and result of an error while acquiring the image. Sometimes the images also look a bit "wobbly" due to vibrations while taking the image (resulted by moving the microscope table for example). But most of those images should have been removed from our database already!
Sp3ktr3
The Regency
The Monarchy
#66 - 2016-03-10 18:31:44 UTC
It's really disheartening to see so many people either randomly picking things, or deliberately choosing the wrong ones. My hope is that the clowns and trolls will quickly get bored with it and leave before they drive everyone else away from the project.
dor amwar
Pandemic Horde Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#67 - 2016-03-10 19:11:16 UTC
i'm one that has also seen places where the 'correct' answer is obviously wrong, any chance in the future there will be flag we could set to mark it for another round? there have also been times where i like the community answer better than mine. would like to be able to mark my answer as bad and have it removed.

for the UI, i often look at the different sample images under the category to compare but can't click them to select the category as the answer. i have to disengage the popup and then go back to the category image to select it as the answer, but it takes time to double check that is what i wanted. can the sample images be enabled for selection ?
SurrenderMonkey
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#68 - 2016-03-10 19:23:03 UTC
HPA Darkfield Oramara wrote:
SurrenderMonkey wrote:
Haven't played with it much yet. I'm kind of wondering about that what-looks-to-be-an-image-ID in the lower right hand corner.

If that's what it is, I expect we'll have a database of known-good answers and bots to supply them, before long.:\

Also it seems super easy to cheat by just closing the window if you get a hard one. I've seen a few where I just went Shocked at the cluster-F of green, closed it, and opened it back up to a nice, clean Nucleoplasm.


The images are re-named before they enter the game so there's no risk of finding the IDs anywhere else!

Of course that could be a possibility, but after a while when more and more images reach a consensus answer, and hence not be available in the game anymore, there will only be the hard ones left Blink But on the other hand, the whole objective of the project is to help us with the hard ones that we are not sure about, so just give them a try even though you're not perfectly sure!


Here's a quick question: Could you post some larger, high-res images of good cytoplasm examples with several color channel variations?

So far I feel like cytoplasm is often over-selected when vesicles, mitochondria, or plasma membrane might be better choices. The sample images of cytoplasm all look like fairly even staining instead of dots, but they're so small.

Also, I often feel at a loss when there's a significant amount of green in an image, but all of a fairly dull color. Is that an actual positive result, or really more of an artifact? I'll try to post some examples if I get a chance after work. My strategy so far has been to go right to the green channel and look for the brightest spots on the board, then focus on those and assess them in other channels to make a decision. It has mostly worked out. I just don't know if I should be paying more attention to the duller green sections, as well.

"Help, I'm bored with missions!"

http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/
Krevnos
Back Door Burglars
#69 - 2016-03-10 19:39:29 UTC
dor amwar wrote:
i'm one that has also seen places where the 'correct' answer is obviously wrong, any chance in the future there will be flag we could set to mark it for another round? there have also been times where i like the community answer better than mine. would like to be able to mark my answer as bad and have it removed.

for the UI, i often look at the different sample images under the category to compare but can't click them to select the category as the answer. i have to disengage the popup and then go back to the category image to select it as the answer, but it takes time to double check that is what i wanted. can the sample images be enabled for selection ?



No, you're not the only one there. I have seen a case where variability of FITC binding between cells was missed. I have also seen a case where a protein which was obviously migrating to intercellular junctions was reported only as 'cytoplasm'.
HPA Illuminator
H P A
C C P Alliance
#70 - 2016-03-10 19:56:56 UTC  |  Edited by: HPA Illuminator
dor amwar wrote:
i'm one that has also seen places where the 'correct' answer is obviously wrong, any chance in the future there will be flag we could set to mark it for another round? there have also been times where i like the community answer better than mine. would like to be able to mark my answer as bad and have it removed.

for the UI, i often look at the different sample images under the category to compare but can't click them to select the category as the answer. i have to disengage the popup and then go back to the category image to select it as the answer, but it takes time to double check that is what i wanted. can the sample images be enabled for selection ?


This should probably be answered by someone from CCP, I'll forward forward the comment!
HPA Illuminator
H P A
C C P Alliance
#71 - 2016-03-10 20:10:29 UTC  |  Edited by: HPA Illuminator
SurrenderMonkey wrote:


Here's a quick question: Could you post some larger, high-res images of good cytoplasm examples with several color channel variations?

So far I feel like cytoplasm is often over-selected when vesicles, mitochondria, or plasma membrane might be better choices. The sample images of cytoplasm all look like fairly even staining instead of dots, but they're so small.

Also, I often feel at a loss when there's a significant amount of green in an image, but all of a fairly dull color. Is that an actual positive result, or really more of an artifact? I'll try to post some examples if I get a chance after work. My strategy so far has been to go right to the green channel and look for the brightest spots on the board, then focus on those and assess them in other channels to make a decision. It has mostly worked out. I just don't know if I should be paying more attention to the duller green sections, as well.


Here are some images of cytoplasm where you can toggle the colors on/off (you can also navigate to other locations from there). There are 4 examples to start with and by clicking the HPAid at the top of the image you can see more images.

http://www.proteinatlas.org/learn/dictionary/cell/Cytoplasm

It would be great with some examples to look at! In general I'd say I would believe more in it if it's a more specific staining than nucleus or cytoplasm... But I think in the game it's better to annotate everything you see!
Duke Killem
Doomheim
#72 - 2016-03-10 20:21:21 UTC
HPA Illuminator wrote:
SurrenderMonkey wrote:


Here's a quick question: Could you post some larger, high-res images of good cytoplasm examples with several color channel variations?

So far I feel like cytoplasm is often over-selected when vesicles, mitochondria, or plasma membrane might be better choices. The sample images of cytoplasm all look like fairly even staining instead of dots, but they're so small.

Also, I often feel at a loss when there's a significant amount of green in an image, but all of a fairly dull color. Is that an actual positive result, or really more of an artifact? I'll try to post some examples if I get a chance after work. My strategy so far has been to go right to the green channel and look for the brightest spots on the board, then focus on those and assess them in other channels to make a decision. It has mostly worked out. I just don't know if I should be paying more attention to the duller green sections, as well.


Here are some images of cytoplasm where you can toggle the colors on/off (you can also navigate to other locations from there)

http://www.proteinatlas.org/learn/dictionary/cell/Cytoplasm

It would be great with some examples to look at! In general I'd say I would believe more in it if it's a more specific staining than nucleus or cytoplasm... But I think in the game it's better to annotate everything you see!


Seeing these Cytoplasm's more closely using the above link makes me even more sure that people are just choosing this as their wtf option! Most of the ones I see that have a high percentage in Cytoplasm are so really not!
HPA Illuminator
H P A
C C P Alliance
#73 - 2016-03-10 20:30:13 UTC  |  Edited by: HPA Illuminator
Duke Killem wrote:

Here are some images of cytoplasm where you can toggle the colors on/off (you can also navigate to other locations from there)

http://www.proteinatlas.org/learn/dictionary/cell/Cytoplasm

It would be great with some examples to look at! In general I'd say I would believe more in it if it's a more specific staining than nucleus or cytoplasm... But I think in the game it's better to annotate everything you see!

Seeing these Cytoplasm's more closely using the above link makes me even more sure that people are just choosing this as their wtf option! Most of the ones I see that have a high percentage in Cytoplasm are so really not!


Those images have been selected as being really pretty though :) but if ppl are choosing cytoplasm incorrectly we will be able to filter out the results from lazy ppl (as HPA_Darkfield pointed out) but we can also take into account if there are certain locations that seem to be more tricky for the players to distinguish.

Having said that, I'm not working with image analysis but if you're interest I could ask HPA_Dichroic (who's specialized in the field) to write a better comment?
Verlyn
Kill'em all. Let Bob sort'em out.
Ushra'Khan
#74 - 2016-03-10 20:34:25 UTC
What does ticking Abnormal Sample do exactly ?
HPA Illuminator
H P A
C C P Alliance
#75 - 2016-03-10 20:50:47 UTC  |  Edited by: HPA Illuminator
Verlyn wrote:
What does ticking Abnormal Sample do exactly ?


It was meant as a way to highlight images with a distinct pattern that didn't match any of the categories. - a way to find things we might have missed (by having this system when we label images ourselves, this is how we found the rods and rings category about a year ago). I'm not sure if this is how the players have used it... Will be interesting to find out :)

EdIt: should also be used to highlight images where eg the red marker is missing.
Memphis Baas
#76 - 2016-03-10 20:53:06 UTC  |  Edited by: Memphis Baas
It probably marks it for them to review in person.

EDIT: I have a suggestion for CCP: change the rewards to include a bonus for time spent analyzing each sample before selecting the answer. Some of these aren't easy, and people look at them for a while then maybe pick an answer that isn't the consensus and get punished for it. You can cap the bonus to, say, 30 seconds, to dissuade afk'ers. But, basically, reward [effort] not just [accuracy].

Oh, also, combine the wallet journal entries for the rewards like you're doing for NPC bounties; one journal entry with the total amount over 20 minutes. The wallet journal is too spammy with individual 50k isk entries (that are taxed, heh).
SurrenderMonkey
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#77 - 2016-03-10 21:11:58 UTC
Duke Killem wrote:
HPA Illuminator wrote:
SurrenderMonkey wrote:


Here's a quick question: Could you post some larger, high-res images of good cytoplasm examples with several color channel variations?

So far I feel like cytoplasm is often over-selected when vesicles, mitochondria, or plasma membrane might be better choices. The sample images of cytoplasm all look like fairly even staining instead of dots, but they're so small.

Also, I often feel at a loss when there's a significant amount of green in an image, but all of a fairly dull color. Is that an actual positive result, or really more of an artifact? I'll try to post some examples if I get a chance after work. My strategy so far has been to go right to the green channel and look for the brightest spots on the board, then focus on those and assess them in other channels to make a decision. It has mostly worked out. I just don't know if I should be paying more attention to the duller green sections, as well.


Here are some images of cytoplasm where you can toggle the colors on/off (you can also navigate to other locations from there)

http://www.proteinatlas.org/learn/dictionary/cell/Cytoplasm

It would be great with some examples to look at! In general I'd say I would believe more in it if it's a more specific staining than nucleus or cytoplasm... But I think in the game it's better to annotate everything you see!


Seeing these Cytoplasm's more closely using the above link makes me even more sure that people are just choosing this as their wtf option! Most of the ones I see that have a high percentage in Cytoplasm are so really not!


Yup, I agree. All of these examples clearly have a very "fuzzy", almost fluid quality to them, and that is not what I see at all in many of the popularly-selected-as-cytoplasm images.

I will definitely be fussier about selecting that, myself, having looked at these more closely.

"Help, I'm bored with missions!"

http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/
Youkai Tengu
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#78 - 2016-03-10 21:43:30 UTC
Not saying I'm completely correct here, but there are some very weird votings here: http://puu.sh/nBYTB/725f6995d8.jpg

But my point is that it is very bad if that the majority votes wrong, it should penalize those who were actually right.
SurrenderMonkey
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#79 - 2016-03-10 21:46:54 UTC
So, what happened to the guy in the top left, here? Shocked

http://imgur.com/a/9T2TN

All of the others have nucleus staining, but the "shattered" one doesn't. It's almost like the nucleus-goo (legit science term here) leaked out and that's the green staining around it.

"Help, I'm bored with missions!"

http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/
Duke Killem
Doomheim
#80 - 2016-03-10 21:57:13 UTC
SurrenderMonkey wrote:
So, what happened to the guy in the top left, here? Shocked

http://imgur.com/a/9T2TN

All of the others have nucleus staining, but the "shattered" one doesn't. It's almost like the nucleus-goo (legit science term here) leaked out and that's the green staining around it.


You found it!!!! He's the one that turned into a drifter. Prof Lundberg will be pleased, A+ for you. She can now come up with some virus to infect those nasty Jove like creatures.