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Bye bye watch lists
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Ni Neith
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#141 - 2016-03-09 13:25:58 UTC
Cara Forelli wrote:
This will ruin content in wormhole space.


You mean it will ruin gangs on krabs in the wormhole space...
Ni Neith
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#142 - 2016-03-09 13:32:05 UTC
Poddington Bare wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
You do realise that now they also can't see that you're online?


Never let facts or common sense get in the way of a good rant.


It is not common sense just because you call it so. Tradehub campers, gankers etc. will profit much more from this in high sec, than people they are looking for. It is simple as that.
Cara Forelli
State War Academy
Caldari State
#143 - 2016-03-09 13:59:44 UTC
Ni Neith wrote:
Cara Forelli wrote:
This will ruin content in wormhole space.


You mean it will ruin gangs on krabs in the wormhole space...

Assuming I understand your childish lingo...no. It will literally have no affect on hunting PVE players. I don't need watchlist to see your ship on scan and kill you. It will only deter me from looking for targets that actually do want a fight, because I have no way of knowing they are online once they cloak. Which means people will just rage roll to kill ratters because even that is better than waiting hours for the stratios you saw next door to come back (maybe?). So it will actually be worse for ratters. Some content.

Ni Neith wrote:
Poddington Bare wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
You do realise that now they also can't see that you're online?


Never let facts or common sense get in the way of a good rant.


It is not common sense just because you call it so. Tradehub campers, gankers etc. will profit much more from this in high sec, than people they are looking for. It is simple as that.

Are you dense? Tradehub campers and gankers don't use watchlist, that's why they are camping busy places. They just wait for something to fall in their lap. The people using watchlist are way more proactive about "doing intel" since that's such a buzzword and seems to be in doubt.

Want to talk? Join my channel in game: House Forelli

Titan's Lament
Ni Neith
Hedion University
Amarr Empire
#144 - 2016-03-09 14:03:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Ni Neith
Cara Forelli wrote:

Are you dense? Tradehub campers and gankers don't use watchlist, that's why they are camping busy places. They just wait for something to fall in their lap. The people using watchlist are way more proactive about "doing intel" since that's such a buzzword and seems to be in doubt.


Have you reading - understanding difficulties? That is exactly what I have said. Campers and gankers don't rely on the watchlist and wont care about the changes.

Cara Forelli wrote:
....Which means people will just rage roll to kill ratters because even that is better than waiting hours for the stratios you saw next door to come back (maybe?).

Right...because the stratios belongs to one of the guys on the watchlist...definetelly. What a stupid argumet.

Cara Forelli wrote:

Assuming I understand your childish lingo...no. It will literally have no affect on hunting PVE players. I don't need watchlist to see your ship on scan and kill you.


You have no idea how WH ganks work. Noted.
Cara Forelli
State War Academy
Caldari State
#145 - 2016-03-09 14:11:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Cara Forelli
Ni Neith wrote:
Tradehub campers, gankers etc. will profit

Ni Neith wrote:
Campers and gankers don't rely on the watchlist and wont care

...you can see my confusion

Cara Forelli wrote:
....Which means people will just rage roll to kill ratters because even that is better than waiting hours for the stratios you saw next door to come back (maybe?).

Ni Neith wrote:
Right...because the stratios belongs to one of the guys on the watchlist...definetelly. What a stupid argumet.

Uh...I put him on my watchlist when I saw him for the express purpose of being able to give up on fighting him when he logs out. This is literally the only way to know if someone is still playing the game because there's no local.

You clearly have no idea what you are talking about.

Ni Neith wrote:
You have no idea how WH ganks work. Noted.

People use watchlist to seed caps but this won't stop them.

Want to talk? Join my channel in game: House Forelli

Titan's Lament
Kamahl Daikun
State War Academy
Caldari State
#146 - 2016-03-09 14:52:22 UTC
Mr Mieyli wrote:
Here's something I don't understand from the complaints here, why is your gameplay dependent on whether or not some guy 30 jumps away logs in? If he's so far that it's a pain to check if he's online or not, why do you need to know? He's too far away to do anything anyway.

People are saying, now that the watch list is gone how will I find targets? Well there's whole areas of space full of targets, they're called null/low/wh. Go to any of those places and suddenly it doesn't matter if that one guy is on or not, you've got plenty of other people to play with. Pirates are still able to do their thing, only now they need to go where the targets are. If that means that you don't want to camp hubs there's plenty more opportunities to be a pirate.


Here's something I don't understand from that argument alone: How do you know he's 30 jumps away?
What if we're just a simple, peaceful PvE corp and we get wardec'd by an entire alliance? It would seem pretty important to know how many people are logged in and probably hunting for us. After all, that's all the watchlist tells us: They're online.

Like someone earlier said, the watchlist reaffirms us that we're not hunting or hiding from ghosts. Nothing sucks more than scouting an entire region only to find out "oh they're not even online, huh". Or camping a station or even logging off when none of your wardeccers are online anyway.

I still can't fathom why people are so against something that says "x is online" and nothing more.
It's not like some kind of deep space intel probe that tells you where they are, what they're in, what it's fitted with, and their estimated destination. Good grief.
FloppieTheBanjoClown
Arcana Imperii Ltd.
#147 - 2016-03-09 15:02:12 UTC  |  Edited by: FloppieTheBanjoClown
Kamahl Daikun wrote:
I still can't fathom why people are so against something that says "x is online" and nothing more.
It's not like some kind of deep space intel probe that tells you where they are, what they're in, what it's fitted with, and their estimated destination. Good grief.


It's because of the broken supercap mechanics where super pilots have had to basically sit in their ship all the time. For security purposes, it makes sense to simply log them out when they aren't actively being used. So the practice has been to log in the super fleet when it's needed and immediately deploy it.. The watch list enables the entire nullsec population to see who is logging in their super fleets and respond immediately without any level of risk on their part. I *completely* understand how that is a problem for those guys. However, two things:

1) With citadels about to provide docking and tethering for supers, they will no longer need to operate in that fashion. Super pilots will be able to engage in the rest of Eve's content with their ship securely stowed away.

2) CCP has been all too willing to degrade gameplay in other regions in order to make nullsec better. If they'd taken the time to implement this change properly they could have accommodated us all. Instead this was a stealth project where we only got wind of it via pictures of slideshows and rumors of presentations, with zero conversation being had with the general player base prior to implementation. The game developer just yanked a major tool out from under thousands of players without even asking our opinions of the change. All because super pilots had a legitimate problem.

edit: as soon as I got wind of the coming change, I and several others started calling for a conversation about how to protect opsec in null without completely ruining the watch list. The devs completely ignored us. They already had their changes in mind and went forward with them in spite of some very valid arguments against them. Worse, the new system doesn't even work right.

Founding member of the Belligerent Undesirables movement.
Zeatrix Antheria
Polyphemus' Caerulea Luna
#148 - 2016-03-09 15:34:22 UTC
I remember in my old corp, we were mainly bunch of unexperienced players at that time. We got wardec'd by a very experienced PvP corp, and we realistically didn't have much chance against them. However, the watchlist provided both us and the aggressor with a tool to see who were online. The ironic but realistic part of this was, when we had the numbers, we'd be able to compete against them, like for instance when we were 5 online and they were 2 online. This gave us a chance to fight back, all while they wouldn't think we'd organize a proper fleet to look for them (basically they were thinking we were carebears and nothing else), and so they actually preferred we were more online (herd of sheep vs. the wolf and all that).

So all in all, it ended up with them looking for us, and us looking for them, because of the watch list alone. Sure they may have been looking for us all the time, but we wouldn't risk a fight unless we knew we had a chance to win, and they would risk it either way. The result was some proper good PvP that came as a surprise to both parties. Looking back at that time I'd imagine a lot of people would completely try to avoid PvP now, and that shouldn't be what EVE is about. The vast majority of my time playing has been alone, but the best memories I have (even from online gaming as a whole) has been these retaliating fleet engagement that actually had a purpose, and weren't just a complete 1-sided bloodbath.
Stebor
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#149 - 2016-03-09 15:45:03 UTC
This is sad, I will never know if any of my old Eve buddies have returned to the game unless the know about this change.

I'm sure that after a couple of years of them not playing they would have forgotten my name and therefor never think twice about letting me see when they are online.


I hope CCP starts asking us the paying players if we think something is good for Eve before implementing it.

Just my thoughts as a Long Time Paying Eve player
Salt Foambreaker
Greedy Pirates
#150 - 2016-03-09 16:19:36 UTC
Droidster wrote:
I think the main issue here is not really the watch lists, it's that EVE is already too pvp centric as it is and the watch list thing is disturbing the balance even more.

I have a friend that just joined and he is basically terrified all the time and telling me how its "not fun". I try explaining to him that nobody is going to bother to blow up his newbie ship, but it doesn't help. This guy is not a "carebear". He always plays PVP in other games.

Most of the ship destruction in the game is in empire which is not the way it is supposed to be.

If the pvp balance were less extreme, I think people would be concerned about the watchlist issue a lot less, but as things are the let's-kill-every-autopilot and wardec every single 3-player corp in EVE mentality is driving people away from the game. Its at the point where there are more wolves than there are elk.


Joining one of the most PvP centric games and then trying to make it less PvP?

Perhaps you and your friend are in the wrong game?
Nadja Hawk
Doomheim
#151 - 2016-03-09 17:17:41 UTC
Gedrick frogue wrote:
Hi All

Just been reading this

Patch notes for march

I do like the way they have put a large change to eve under "Miscellaneous" I thought watch lists were a bit more important to people

TBH it's a useful tool to every player in eve and this new option that both parties have to consent to be visible to each other simple beens that next week everyone might as well delete the contents of their watch lists are they have just become completely useless

Should prove a huge advantage to some players and vise versa a huge disadvantage to others

Gunna be a lot of people docked up or offline during war dec's now though that's my thoughts :)

Cheers

Ged


nothing has changed, get a spai into his corp and you'll see if he is on or not
Kamahl Daikun
State War Academy
Caldari State
#152 - 2016-03-09 17:21:49 UTC
Nadja Hawk wrote:
nothing has changed, get a spai into his corp and you'll see if he is on or not


Is that seriously the solution you're proposing or are you just trolling?
Moonlit Raid
Doomheim
#153 - 2016-03-09 17:50:46 UTC
As for an actual solution, locator agent the guy then just follow him with a covops.

If brute force isn't working, you're just not using enough.

Please Note: Any advice given comes with the caveat that nothing will be suitable for every situation.
Sola Atruin
Mutant Space Kittens
#154 - 2016-03-09 18:57:13 UTC
I don't like it. Sad

As already mentioned, there is no local in J-space, so the non-consensual watch list was a pretty important tool to gather intelligence.
Pandora Carrollon
Provi Rapid Response
#155 - 2016-03-09 19:16:19 UTC
Cara Forelli wrote:
Pandora Carrollon wrote:

I hope that is 'on topic' enough.

No offense (I know you are new) but you clearly don't know what you are talking about. CCP often announces sweeping bull headed changes and has to retract them when the players bring up concerns they didn't consider. They did it just a few weeks ago with force auxiliary skill books.

Unfortunately for me, I doubt they will retract this one because too many people support it. I won't quit over it but it may force me out of wormhole space to find content. I guarantee if the "no free intel" crowd had to spend a day without watchlist OR local they would be singing a different tune. There's nothing fun about playing eve by yourself.


Thank you for being sensitive to my newness. I have seen CCP 'short announce' stuff before, "Hey guys we just did THIS", so I'm not that new. I agree with everyone that says that's GARBAGE and a poor way to operate.

I think the on topic point would be, how we can make it so that CCP *WANTS* to engage the player base and wants to get us involved in decisions and maybe deeper testing of things like Watchlist removal.

Threads like this that beat the holy living snot out of them for this stuff would seem to counter any desire they might have to engage us. Thus my other point about trying to be positive and when we get our hands on a change, THEN we can positively beat the snot out of the change... not CCP.

I realize how we play EVE is very personal to all of us, thus my comment about it being my game. We shouldn't trash CCP though just because they do something that impacts our play style. Maybe we could find out why they are doing it, dev blogs and all, maybe they would give us some time to play with it, maybe pigs can fly and I'm just not seeing them because they have cloaking devices.

Regardless of the change or if they spring it on us. It's up to us to determine how we take it... with a 'sure I'll try it' or tactical nuclear weapons lobbed in Iceland's direction. I tend to prefer the former method.

8 Golden Rules of EVE • EVE is entirely PvP
Pandora Carrollon
Provi Rapid Response
#156 - 2016-03-09 19:21:38 UTC
Kamahl Daikun wrote:
However, unlike us, CCP makes the decision, goes through their process, and implements it without consulting their users. This isn't the first change they've made that we didn't, and still don't, like. Ironically, a lot of games go through this process. The collective anal clench can still be felt in some communities years later and, really, it's a ****** model.


I agree with you, their model isn't perfect, no company's is; as you pointed out. I also think everyone gets what's being said, poor announcements, timing, lack of testing, all of that exists and I don't deny nor do I like it. I do understand it though and anyone that has worked in IT and Coding practices can understand it too.

So, is it possible to fix this process so we can avoid these issues in the future by working with CCP now? Today it's a sacred cow Watchlist, tomorrow it could be an even bigger sacred cow, and I'd rather hear about it sooner and test it sooner rather than later.

8 Golden Rules of EVE • EVE is entirely PvP
Pandora Carrollon
Provi Rapid Response
#157 - 2016-03-09 19:26:44 UTC
March rabbit wrote:

however i agree: the game needs to provide RL statuses for players like "he is active and on keyboard atm" or "he is afk" or "he is in ship with this fit" so players can evade all unneeded stuff like killboard digging, scanning, predicting and just have fun in this game killing each other.....


How about an 'in space' flag on the player portrait screen. You look them up and can see if they are in space. No, it won't tell you they are AFK, part of the tactic of deal with hunters is being AFK. If someone is griefing you, you should be able to make them be a little miserable back. Other MMO's don't allow stalking behavior. EVE does, so you have to counter it with other equal tactics. I'm not sure you should ever know if someone is AFK without eyes on their ship. Docked/offline is a different matter.


(Sorry for the triple post folks.)

8 Golden Rules of EVE • EVE is entirely PvP
Mishra San
#158 - 2016-03-09 19:34:08 UTC
remove watch lists; good.

remove 'magical' local list for all security space; better.

improve d-scan somehow to compensate for it; bestest.

.2cents

sending virtual hug, virtual hug sent !
d0cTeR9
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#159 - 2016-03-09 19:37:01 UTC
About time. Easily one of the most OP intel tool.

Been around since the beginning.
Isaac Armer
The Soup Kitchen
#160 - 2016-03-09 20:05:48 UTC  |  Edited by: Isaac Armer
Valkin Mordirc wrote:
Not to sound like a ****, But if a mechanic changes and the optimal solution is to give up something you've been doing for years.


It's not that great of an option.


Every mechanic change means someone has to change what they have been doing for years. Adapt.

Omar Alharazaad wrote:
And then there are those of us who DO live and hunt in High Sec. If a war target logs in 30 jumps away, and I know this may seem strange to you, there's a pretty good chance of some people like us disembarking in fast ships and heading over there to get eyes on them and set up a hit. That's just how we roll from time to time.

The 'Go to Null/Low/WH space if you want fights' argument is tired and invalid. PVP is viable in all sectors of space.

The new changes are going to present those of us who make house calls with some new challenges. We're going to have to adapt, but it wont be easy by any means. It's still too early to determine how massive of an impact this is going to have on our playstyle. I predict many neutral flying monkeys saturating areas where targets have been spotted or killed in the past, just for starters.


The 'go to null/low/WH' space is 100% valid. HS is supposed to be a bit safer, and a bit harder to PvP in. Wardeccing carebear corps is just a risk averse way to PvP, and wardeccers aversion to leave HS because of this change simply solidifies this fact.